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Towing Mods- Trailer and Vehicle


BoatFlyRide

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Hello All,

My wife and I recently purchased a 2015 Malibu Response LXR and we are on the search for a tow vehicle. We really want a minivan based on the available interior room, price, and ease of use when not towing. To get an equivalent amount of space in an SUV requires a much larger and more expensive vehicle. We only plan to tow a couple of times each month on mostly level roads in SE Wisconsin. 

We really like the 2020 Toyota Sienna equipped with AWD, however, the maximum tow rating is 3500lbs, so our boat will likely exceed that by a small margin. Adding any amount of passengers or cargo would only exacerbate that issue. 

In order to maximize safety in what is potentially a marginal scenario I am considering the following modifications to the van and trailer.

Trailer

  • Convert existing surge disc brake system to either electric brakes (if modification kit is available from Boatmate) or use an off-the shelf electric over hydraulic system. I believe the ability to run a brake controller with variable gain would be very advantageous in heavy braking scenarios.
  • Install an aftermarket weight distribution system and hitch on to the trailer. This should alleviate some of the squatting associated with the tongue weight on the rear suspension of the van.

Vehicle

  • Install tires with a slightly higher load rating than equipped from the factory and/or carefully manage tire pressures when towing.
  • Consider installation of manual air bags in rear suspension to assist in load leveling. May use in lieu of or in conjunction with weight distribution hitch system.
  • Install oil and transmission temp monitoring system via OBDII port.
  • Consider installation of auxiliary transmission cooler.
  • Run premium or octane booster when towing.
  • The previous generation Highlander is rated for 5000lbs with basically the same powertrain so my assumption is that lower rating of the Sienna is either brakes/suspension related and/or regulatory in nature.

 

Any ideas or input on the wisdom or perhaps stupidity of the aforementioned ideas and modifications is greatly apperciated.

Does anyone on the forum tow their slalom or barefoot rig with a minivan?

 

Edited by BoatFlyRide
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31 minutes ago, BoatFlyRide said:

Does anyone on the forum tow their slalom or barefoot rig with a minivan?

It's been done.  AMHIK ;)  The dry weight of your boat is 2,579  pounds according to the specs.  That leaves almost 1000 lbs for the trailer.  If you really wanted to save weight, dump the current trailer and get a single  torsion axle aluminum trailer.   Get/install the trailer towing package for  the Sienna. A new Toyota Sienna can be optioned with a Towing Prep Package. This package includes an engine oil cooler as well as a heavy-duty radiator and fan.  You will probably need diff rear springs/airbag as those vans squat a lot.  Ditch the rest of you mods, esp. the octane booster or premium.  Not needed.

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I have towed our 2005 Response LXi no problem with a 2012 VW minivan. I have a dual axle trailer with surge brakes. Having 4 braking tires helps a lot.

I kept to the speed limit or under and always maintained a safe distance from the vehicle in front of me and watched for people cutting me off and then braking suddenly.

The van had the power but I could have done something with the rear suspension.

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Sorry but minivans aren’t made to be tow vehicles. Especially true when you also load them with people. You’ll be over the tow rating and likely over the payload capacity. While some of the mods you mention will improve the experience, nothing you do will increase the tow rating. 
 

My advice is to get a proper tow vehicle. 

Edited by RyanB
  • Like 3
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1 minute ago, RyanB said:

Sorry but minivans aren’t made to be two vehicles. Especially true when you also load them with people. You’ll be over the tow rating and likely over the payload capacity. While some of the mods you mention will improve the experience, nothing you do will increase the tow rating. 
 

My advice is to get a proper tow vehicle. 

I will respectfully disagree given the circumstances posted by the OP.  A couple times a month in the summer (I can only image 150 miles tops?) on the flatlands of the cheese state?  Don't need a Denali for that.  It is true that one would have to watch total payload, but BTDT.

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28 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

It's been done.  AMHIK ;)  The dry weight of your boat is 2,579  pounds according to the specs.  That leaves almost 1000 lbs for the trailer.  If you really wanted to save weight, dump the current trailer and get a single  torsion axle aluminum trailer.   Get/install the trailer towing package for  the Sienna. A new Toyota Sienna can be optioned with a Towing Prep Package. This package includes an engine oil cooler as well as a heavy-duty radiator and fan.  You will probably need diff rear springs/airbag as those vans squat a lot.  Ditch the rest of you mods, esp. the octane booster or premium.  Not needed.

I went around and around and around with several dealers and Toyota corporate last year regarding this issue. The factory towing package is available on all trims of the FWD vans, however, it is only available on the lowest AWD model.

There is no prohibition in the owners manual for towing in the high spec AWD trims. They are all rated for 3500 lbs.

No dealer or anyone I was able to speak with at Toyota could give me an answer regarding this issue.

The only thing I could come up with is a potential conflict with the vehicle’s weight classification. The limit for “Class I” vehicles in the USA is 6,000lbs GVWR. Can you guess what the GVWR on all configurations of the Sienna is???

Drum roll please...... 

5995 pounds.

All I can figure is that the higher AWD trims are just enough heavier that with whatever formula is used to determine weights would push it over the 6000 lb restriction.

I need to do more research to see if the extra goodies in the towing package are included in the higher trim AWD models.

Edited by BoatFlyRide
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24 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I will respectfully disagree given the circumstances posted by the OP.  A couple times a month in the summer (I can only image 150 miles tops?) on the flatlands of the cheese state?  Don't need a Denali for that.  It is true that one would have to watch total payload, but BTDT.

My average distance would be far less than that. The boat lives on a lift 90% of the time at my parents house. About a 45 minute drive.

I just want to be able to explore other lakes occasionally and ski the river across the street from my house from time to time.

Maybe go on a 250-350 mile trip on mostly level roads once a season.

Edited by BoatFlyRide
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12 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I will respectfully disagree given the circumstances posted by the OP.  A couple times a month in the summer (I can only image 150 miles tops?) on the flatlands of the cheese state?  Don't need a Denali for that.  It is true that one would have to watch total payload, but BTDT.

Respectfully disagree all you want. There isn’t a thing you or anyone else can do to increase a manufacturers tow rating. They spend literally millions of dollars on R&D which determines the tow capacity. Your staying at a Holiday Inn last night won’t change that. 

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13 hours ago, BoatFlyRide said:

Trailer

  • Convert existing surge disc brake system to either electric brakes (if modification kit is available from Boatmate) or use an off-the shelf electric over hydraulic system. I believe the ability to run a brake controller with variable gain would be very advantageous in heavy braking scenarios.
  • Install an aftermarket weight distribution system and hitch on to the trailer. This should alleviate some of the squatting associated with the tongue weight on the rear suspension of the van.

On a boat, adding these items to the trailer is going to be more of a pain than they are worth (IMO).  If you are going to do one of the two, I would do the brakes, but, honestly, for this size boat, the surge brakes should do fine.  

The WDH I would say definitely no.  First, the hitch itself is just going to add weight to the bumper, which you are trying to avoid (tongue weight is going to be an issue as much as total tow capacity I would bet).  Second, a WDH is not usually compatible with a unibody frame (but you need to check your specific vehicle).  Their purpose is to shift the load through the frame to put weight on the front tires to improve handling and braking, but from what I have read they just put stress undue stress on a unibody frame and don't really accomplish their intended purpose (or at least not as effectively as when used with a body on frame truck frame). 

On the rest of the upgrades to the tow vehicle, thinking you need to do them right off the bat should be a big red flag.  It tells me you know you are not going to have enough tow vehicle before you buy it (and you would be correct in this assessment) and putting a bunch of bandaids on it is going to cost a bunch of time and expense.  But at the end of the day you still won't have enough tow vehicle.  And a 350 mile trip even every once in a while is going to be stressful anyway you cut it.  Do you really want to be stressed out on every trip you take that would otherwise be fun and relaxing?  

I've towed overloaded in the past more times than I'd like to admit.  I've also put bandaids on vehicles to try and compensate for the fact I knew were not sufficient for the job.  Over the years I've come to the conclusion it is just not worth it if you can avoid it.  But at the end of the day you need to be the judge of how much stress and hassle is it to you to cut corners on your tow rig.

Edited by jjackkrash
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13 hours ago, BoatFlyRide said:

2015 Malibu Response LXR

Have you weighed the boat full of gas and gear on a trailer?  I suspect you will be closer to 5k pounds than 3500.  My supposedly very light American Skier was around 4400 lbs. going down the road on a trailer.    

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1 hour ago, jjackkrash said:

On a boat, adding these items to the trailer is going to be more of a pain than they are worth (IMO).  If you are going to do one of the two, I would do the brakes, but, honestly, for this size boat, the surge brakes should do fine.  

The WDH I would say definitely no.  First, the hitch itself is just going to add weight to the bumper, which you are trying to avoid (tongue weight is going to be an issue as much as total tow capacity I would bet).  Second, a WDH is not usually compatible with a unibody frame (but you need to check your specific vehicle).  Their purpose is to shift the load through the frame to put weight on the front tires to improve handling and braking, but from what I have read they just put stress undue stress on a unibody frame and don't really accomplish their intended purpose (or at least not as effectively as when used with a body on frame truck frame). 

On the rest of the upgrades to the tow vehicle, thinking you need to do them right off the bat should be a big red flag.  It tells me you know you are not going to have enough tow vehicle before you buy it (and you would be correct in this assessment) and putting a bunch of bandaids on it is going to cost a bunch of time and expense.  But at the end of the day you still won't have enough tow vehicle.  And a 350 mile trip even every once in a while is going to be stressful anyway you cut it.  Do you really want to be stressed out on every trip you take that would otherwise be fun and relaxing?  

I've towed overloaded in the past more times than I'd like to admit.  I've also put bandaids on vehicles to try and compensate for the fact I knew were not sufficient for the job.  Over the years I've come to the conclusion it is just not worth it if you can avoid it.  But at the end of the day you need to be the judge of how much stress and hassle is it to you to cut corners on your tow rig.

Good point on the WDH on a unibody. I’ll definitely discard that idea.

Not trying to “cut corners” on anything. I just can’t see the wisdom of driving a large SUV 24/7/365 just so I can tow 8-9 times a year.

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1 hour ago, jjackkrash said:

Have you weighed the boat full of gas and gear on a trailer?  I suspect you will be closer to 5k pounds than 3500.  My supposedly very light American Skier was around 4400 lbs. going down the road on a trailer.    

This is my concern as well. The boat is at the fiberglass shop having the gel coat on the keel repaired from beaching damage incurred by the previous owner. I plan to weigh it when it’s done.

Edited by BoatFlyRide
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7 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

 I suspect you will be closer to 5k pounds than 3500.

Sweet - it'll be great for surfing! ;) I would be shocked if the rig weighs more than 4K.  Unless the trailer is made of lead.  I mean what is gas - 8 lbs a gallon? A carbon ski - 6 lbs?

  • Like 1
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38 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Sweet - it'll be great for surfing! ;) I would be shocked if the rig weighs more than 4K.  Unless the trailer is made of lead.  I mean what is gas - 8 lbs a gallon? A carbon ski - 6 lbs?

Only way to know is to weigh it.  The "dry weight" of the boat on the spec sheet is just an estimate and assumes no options.  Every boat weighs a different amount coming off the line.  Any boat that relies on humans to place the glass, apply the polyester resin, and spray the gel coat, can have a large variation on weight coming off the line; that material is heavy.  

Edited by jjackkrash
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I don't think the van would have a problem pulling it, the issue you have to think of is if you get into an accident;   Your claim will be denied if they can prove you're towing over the limit.   I know it doesn't make sense b/c I towed my lighter boat with an Odyssey and then my current boat with 2 different Pilots - they all had essentially the same power-train.   I would say you are going to be closer to 3800 lbs

 

 

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3 minutes ago, jjackkrash said:

Only way to know is to weigh it.

True.  5000 lbs stretches the bounds of credulity in my mind though.  I've always wondered about the weight of mine:  might have to weigh it this year.

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3 minutes ago, SkiPablo said:

I don't think the van would have a problem pulling it, the issue you have to think of is if you get into an accident;   Your claim will be denied if they can prove you're towing over the limit.   I know it doesn't make sense b/c I towed my lighter boat with an Odyssey and then my current boat with 2 different Pilots - they all had essentially the same power-train.   I would say you are going to be closer to 3800 lbs

 

 

3800 seems plausible to me with full tank of gas, coolers etc.  And I wonder about the insurance liability thing...

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8 minutes ago, jjackkrash said:

Only way to know is to weigh it.

 

4 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

True.  5000 lbs stretches the bounds of credulity in my mind though. 

I said "closer to 5k than 3500."  I suspect its just over 4k but could be as heavy 4500.   

Edited by jjackkrash
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10 minutes ago, SkiPablo said:

I don't think the van would have a problem pulling it, the issue you have to think of is if you get into an accident;   Your claim will be denied if they can prove you're towing over the limit.   

Unless there's a specific exclusion (and I've never seen one in a standard auto policy) this is most likely not true.  Auto liability insurance covers at-fault accidents and negligent conduct and the threshold to deny coverage for intentional or reckless misconduct is very high.  

Edited by jjackkrash
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5 minutes ago, dlb said:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a29339668/how-truck-tow-rating-is-calculated/

This is a good read to understand how a vehicle tow rating is determined.  I am not sure if minivans towing ski boats would survive.

I can absolutely assure you that an AWD minivan can easily tow a single axle Response-class boat and survive.  In the Rockies no less. That said, I would not want to tow hundreds of miles regularly with one.

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29 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I can absolutely assure you that an AWD minivan can easily tow a single axle Response-class boat and survive.  In the Rockies no less. That said, I would not want to tow hundreds of miles regularly with one.

My neighbor towed his vintage Nautique with his minivan.  When he bought a Suburban to tow the boat I asked him why....  He said my kids are bigger, safety.  

To your point, you can but when you think about safety of your family and others, why?  

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