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Different axle weights


Texan32

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Last year, when i first brought my '18 T23 home, i brought it up to work and put it on the scale.  I wanted to know exactly how much i was pulling.  I have access to individual (.mil calibrated) scales, so i was able to measure everything individually.  Here are the numbers i got:

Tongue - 540

Driver Front - 2030

Driver Rear - 1020

Pass Front - 2040

Pass Rear - 970

I did my best to assure the boat was on level ground.  The tongue weight was measured at the jack and NOT the actual ball connection point, so i know there is a little difference there.  And, the tongue was set to actual ride height when attached to the truck.

So, my question is this.  Why is there 2000lbs of difference between the front and rear axle?!  Is there a way to correct this?  Has anyone else been able to weight their setup and found similar results?

My main concern is 1) the load isnt level and putting undue stress on the front axle, and 2)  the weight of the front axle actually exceeds the load capacity of the factory rims.  They are only rated at 1800ish lbs (just saw the label the other day and dont remember the exact number).

I want to re-weigh it to make sure im not losing my mind.  And, i will take something with me so i can get a true tongue weight.  But i thought i would toss this up to get opinions.

 

James

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This is one of the lesser-known secrets of torsion axles in a tandem setup.  Spring axles have equalizers, but torsion axles do not.  This is the cause of torsion bar failures more than anything else.

Lift the tongue more until the axle weights are equal, then set your ball to that height.

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lifting the tongue shouldn't be the answer.  I have tried to search the interweb for "torsion axle (insert idea here)" to see if there was information on how to set them up properly.  But, i am coming up short.  I would think that adjusting the clock position on either axle will make changes.  However, theory and reality often arent on the same page.

I would think that lowering the front axle a tooth or two would transfer weight to the back axle.  BUT, what is that going to do to the tongue weight?!

I have scales and will be checking the weights again tomorrow. 

 

James

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Try lifting the tongue first and see if the simple fix solves your problem. The trailer should be level when you measure and if that solves the issue you may need the correct hitch so that it is at that height when coupled.

Found this article: https://www.equispirit.com/info/articles/danger-of-an-un-level-trailer.htm

Quote

Why should a trailer be level? For a horse trailer to avoid overloading one of the four tires or possibly breaking one of the axles, it must be level when hitched to a tow vehicle. What we mean by “being level” is that the weight of the trailer should be sitting evenly on both axles and all four tires. Since each tire and axle is rated to sustain up to a specific maximum weight, any weight over that specific weight will overload the tire and result in a blow-out or a broken axle. With most horse trailers today being equipped with rubber torsion axles, weight shifts from one axle to another rather quickly when raising or lowering the nose, making it even more critical to insure that the trailer is level.

 

Edited by tbullard
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The tongue weight was measured at ride height.  But, i know that changing the tongue elevation will alter the balance and therefore change the tongue weight.  Since i have 5 scales, i can play with that tomorrow and see what cause/effect i can come up with.  Will be interesting to see how much of a difference tongue ride height can make on tongue weight and axle balance. 

Jason, based on the size and location of the tank, my gut tells me its physically impossible for the fuel level to make that much of a difference.  A gallon of gas is 6lbs @ 69 gallons = 414lbs.....a far cry from 2K lbs.  I would also hate to think that the fuel level of the boat could have such a dramatic difference on the overall balance of the load. 

 

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For the record, the difference in weight between the front and rear axles isn’t 2000 pounds, it’s 1100. Still significant but better than 2000. 
 

Where does the back of the boat sit in relation to the end of the bunks?

I would suggest reweighing the trailer, maybe this time attached to the tow vehicle and see if there still is that much of a variance between the axle weights. 

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3 minutes ago, RyanB said:

For the record, the difference in weight between the front and rear axles isn’t 2000 pounds, it’s 1100. Still significant but better than 2000. 
 

Where does the back of the boat sit in relation to the end of the bunks?

I would suggest reweighing the trailer, maybe this time attached to the tow vehicle and see if there still is that much of a variance between the axle weights. 

The weight difference is 1000lbs difference per side.  But, you are correct.  If you balance the load, it would only be about 500lbs per side.

I dont know exactly where the back sits.  But, i can tell you that my transom straps run pretty strait up to the eyelets on the transom.  I would thing the boat is sitting on the trailer in the manner designed from Malibu/Axis.

I can certainly add that test to my list.  The only issue i see with that, is that the truck will be on level ground, but the trailer will be about 2" higher in the air due to the scales.  Unless i can take some boards and drive the truck up on them to get everything back to the exact same level

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Try the opposite end of the scale this time, reversing what you did the first time. Piezo load sensors may by calibrated differently on each end of the scale, but still add up to give accurate total weight.  Also do total weight to see how individual #'s add up.

Edited by electricjohn
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https://www.intercompcompany.com/wheel-axle-scales/portable/pt300

They are wheel axle scales.  Not really alot of space to offset the measurement surface.  We use them for measuring our 5-ton trucks loaded up as well as weighing/balancing air cargo pallets.

Factory spec is +/- 1%.  Our calibration shop follows that spec and they are checked about every 6 months.  

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2 hours ago, Texan32 said:

The weight difference is 1000lbs difference per side.  But, you are correct.  If you balance the load, it would only be about 500lbs per side.

I dont know exactly where the back sits.  But, i can tell you that my transom straps run pretty strait up to the eyelets on the transom.  I would thing the boat is sitting on the trailer in the manner designed from Malibu/Axis.

I can certainly add that test to my list.  The only issue i see with that, is that the truck will be on level ground, but the trailer will be about 2" higher in the air due to the scales.  Unless i can take some boards and drive the truck up on them to get everything back to the exact same level

You're right.  I was confusing wheel weight with axle weight.

You say that the boat is sitting on the trailer in a manner designed from Malibu/Axis, but I don't think that necessarily makes it right.  I don't think they would intend to have 2000 pounds more weight on the front axle (your point of the post).

My experience is that, at least with Boat Mate, Malibu wasn't 100% on the weight distribution of the boat/trailer.  While I have never weighed my boat the way you have (I probably should), I always felt that I didn't have enough tongue weight as the trailer could get a little squirrely when being towed behind my Yukon XL.  When I added 300 pounds of lead to the bow, that went away.

As much as I tow, I'd be really concerned about the the weight balance on the axles.  Not sure what you have for tries, but if you are on Endurance, you are right on the weight rating on the front axle.  If you moved the boat back on the trailer you could better balance the weight on the axles, but it might have too much effect on tongue weight.

Hopefully, there was an abnormality when you weighed the trailer.  If not, I'm not sure how to easily address your situation.

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WaterskiAmerica is only a few miles from my house.  I might take a trip up there and see if they will entertain my curiosity and let me weigh a couple different boats. 

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VERY interesting results!

The truck: 2017 F150, 4dr, 4x4 FX4 package w/ 1.25" front lift.  Hitch is a B&W using the top most position (results in a slight forward lean of the trailer).

The boat: 2018 T23, Axis trailer running 215/75R14 tires.  I did my best to empty the PNP bags last time we went out.  Also, i have 50lbs of lead in each of the back most corners of the bow under cushion area.  I also have 50lbs in the back of the boat on each of the front corners of the moveable bench thing.  I also have 2/3 -3/4 tank of fuel.

I first started by checking tongue weight at ride height.  I used the front-most bottom line of the hitch. @ 18 1/2" = 470lbs.  @ 19 1/2" = 490lbs.  @ 20 1/2" = 510lbs.  @21 1/2" = 550 lbs.  So, for every inch, you get about 20lbs on the togue until you hit an extreme angle and then it really starts to load down.  Side note finding.....at 20 1/2", the weight on the jack was 640lbs (130lbs more than the tongue).

Next, with the truck attached, i pulled the boat on the trailer.  LF - 2010lbs/LR - 1120 and RF - 2100/RR - 1070.  I then disconnected the truck and started to measure different tongue heights.  It was after 2 readings that i realized i was making a CRITICAL mistake.  See, the scales ADD 3" of height at the axles  This causes a pretty exaggerated angle to the trailer.  Once i realized this, i started over by adding 3" to the tongue height.  And man, were the results different!

@ (true) ride height: LF - 1610lbs/LR - 1340lbs and RF - 1770lbs/RR - 1350lbs 

@ ride height +1": LF - 1440lbs/LR - 1430lbs and RF - 1630lbs/RR - 1470lbs. 

@ ride height +2": LR - 1340lbs/LR - 1550lbs and RF - 1540lbs/RR - 1550lbs

So a couple observations.  1) my initial measurements were incorrectly taken.  There is NOT a 2000lb difference between the axles.  Its only 690lbs (270 on the left side and 420 on the right side).  2) Adding just 1" to the ride height shifted a total of 520lbs to the rear axle (260 lbs equally from both sides).  Adding an additional 1" (2 total) shifted an additional 370 lbs to the rear axle (200 on the left/170 on the right).  3) i cannot account for the weight difference from side to side.  It almost makes me want to pull the wheels and verify the torsion arms are clocked the same all the way around.  4) Im considering pulling the tires and re-clocking the torsion arms to lower the trailer.  I noticed that i have plenty of room in the fender well to tuck the tires a little.  I like my hitch and cannot go up any higher.

There it is.  For what its worth.  An initial bonehead mistake on my part, but it resulted in some pretty interesting data.

James

Edited by Texan32
  • Like 2
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45 minutes ago, Texan32 said:

  I like my hitch and cannot go up any higher.
 

Not sure which hitch you have but can you flip the part that goes into the truck over so to get extra height out of the ball?

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I have a B&W hitch.  I'm not interested in flipping it up because i tow other trailers that need a lower setting than the boat does.  That would mean i would constantly be flipping the base over.  I just ordered a Hellwig 978 Helper Spring Kit  Seems to be a super simple bolt on.  Will assist the leafs and mitigate some of the (almost) 3" drop the boat puts on the back end of the truck.  Because its a "helper" and not an Add-a-leaf, it shouldnt cause too much of a difference in daily driving either.  Even with the Hellwig spring, i still plan on lowering the trailer an inch or so. 

Moral of the story.....its IMPERATIVE that the trailer ride as close to level as possible  Just 1" of elevation cause exponential changes in weight at the axles.

Edited by Texan32
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21 hours ago, Texan32 said:

I have a B&W hitch.  I'm not interested in flipping it up because i tow other trailers that need a lower setting than the boat does.  That would mean i would constantly be flipping the base over.  I just ordered a Hellwig 978 Helper Spring Kit  Seems to be a super simple bolt on.  Will assist the leafs and mitigate some of the (almost) 3" drop the boat puts on the back end of the truck.  Because its a "helper" and not an Add-a-leaf, it shouldnt cause too much of a difference in daily driving either.  Even with the Hellwig spring, i still plan on lowering the trailer an inch or so. 

Moral of the story.....its IMPERATIVE that the trailer ride as close to level as possible  Just 1" of elevation cause exponential changes in weight at the axles.

I'm confused now.  I really thought you had torsion axles.  Leaf axles should have equalizers, so each axle will carry roughly the same weight (almost) regardless of tongue height.  You are talking about add a leaf and helper springs, but you can't use those with torsion axles.  If you have leaf springs, make sure your equalizers are installed and functioning correctly.

And by the way, I carry three different draw bars with me because I tow three different trailers.  It's easy to change the draw bar to the right one for the job at hand, and the height is set correctly.

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1 hour ago, Chaabo said:

@justgary The Hellwig is for his tow vehicle. :biggrin:

Correct.  The Hellwig is for the truck. And, i will be sure to make a thread about that once they get in.  .....come on Amazon..... :thumbup:

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On 5/16/2020 at 3:28 PM, Chaabo said:

@justgary The Hellwig is for his tow vehicle. :biggrin:

Thanks.  I know I'm crazy, but that one got me.  My F-150 doesn't need help, so I didn't think about his tow vehicle. 

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41 minutes ago, justgary said:

Thanks.  I know I'm crazy, but that one got me.  My F-150 doesn't need help, so I didn't think about his tow vehicle. 

Yeah, but he said that he stuck a leveling kit in his truck - so now he really needs a lift kit in the back for the suspension to work properly for towing again.

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57 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

Yeah, but he said that he stuck a leveling kit in his truck - so now he really needs a lift kit in the back for the suspension to work properly for towing again.

Bingo!  And, this why i left a little bit of rake in the truck's stance (only 1.25" inch lift...not the 2" its capable of).  I knew i would be towing and didnt want to look like i was part of the Carolina Squat crowd. ANY lift on only the front will lower  the trailer hitch ball.  The rear axle is your fulcrum in that situation.  

Also, i feel like the rear springs on the truck are a tad soft.  I dont doubt that was by design.  People want a comfortable ride.  Im betting an overwhelming population of these truck (1/2 ton in general...not just Ford) owners dont tow.  So, mfgrs can lighten the springs to make it ride more car-like to make momma and the kiddos happy.  And honestly, i LOVE the way the truck rides.  Even with the boat on, its not bad.  But, i feel liek the Hellwig Helpers will improve things.  We will see though. Springs should be here in a few days.  Hopefuly i can get them on before this weekends road trip to Texoma.

 

Edited by Texan32
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