wakefoil with a small wave

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, hunter77ah said:

What foil are you riding?

This!

[hunter77ah]

1 hour ago, shawndoggy said:

This!

An orange one!

[barefootpaul]

19 hours ago, hunter77ah said:

What foil are you riding?

Liquid Force Horizon 160 on a Slingshot WF-2 board.

[shawndoggy]

22 hours ago, barefootpaul said:

Just got a wakefoil and tried for the first time yesterday. Good advice in this thread got me up and riding long line pretty quickly. I also sky ski so general foil experience helped as well.

I was riding about 10-12mph. Should I speed up a little long line, or try to dial in rope less at slow speeds first?

11-13 is really the sweet spot.  Any slower and the foils tend to stall, faster and you can't keep up (plus on surfgate boats you'll get the over-speed alarm).  If you can fly and control it long line in the flats, come in and see if you can get slack in the second wake (look for the "bubble line" for the most push/lift).  Once you can get the rope slack there for 60 seconds or so, then come in and ride the first wake, which is much more powerful.

[barefootpaul]

4 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

11-13 is really the sweet spot.  Any slower and the foils tend to stall, faster and you can't keep up (plus on surfgate boats you'll get the over-speed alarm).  If you can fly and control it long line in the flats, come in and see if you can get slack in the second wake (look for the "bubble line" for the most push/lift).  Once you can get the rope slack there for 60 seconds or so, then come in and ride the first wake, which is much more powerful.

Thanks!

I think I'm alright with speed then. Foil feels good underfoot.

Yesterday we had the boat setup for surfing so I gave the foil a try on the first wave. CRAZY push. So fun. Easy to get the push from the wave and ride it forward, but I haven't figured out how to slow down to stay on the wave or at least get back for the next push. Maybe I should go back to the second wave like you suggest.

[shawndoggy]

4 minutes ago, barefootpaul said:

Thanks!

I think I'm alright with speed then. Foil feels good underfoot.

Yesterday we had the boat setup for surfing so I gave the foil a try on the first wave. CRAZY push. So fun. Easy to get the push from the wave and ride it forward, but I haven't figured out how to slow down to stay on the wave or at least get back for the next push. Maybe I should go back to the second wave like you suggest.

As opposed to surfing on the surface, there are no brakes foiling.  You have gas and coast. 

So the idea on the front wake is go take the push from the wave, cut out of the push a little, glide to the flats where there is no push to burn off the speed, but before you're 100% out of push cut back to the wave to get pushed again.  Repeat to infinity.

More mast out of the water = less drag = more speed.  More mast in the water (deeper foil) = more drag.  Some mast is def necessary when turning so you don't breach the outside edge of the foil.

It's way more fun (IMHO/YMMV) on a small wave, running slightly faster, because the wave is CRAZY long, a little smaller (less intimidating), and you can get 2-3x farther back than you can on a surfboard.  minimal ballast and no wedge seem to work well for us (granted I've always got 400lbs of lead).

[CaptainMorgan]

22 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

It's way more fun (IMHO/YMMV) on a small wave, running slightly faster, because the wave is CRAZY long, a little smaller (less intimidating), and you can get 2-3x farther back than you can on a surfboard.  minimal ballast and no wedge seem to work well for us (granted I've always got 400lbs of lead).

this!  my best runs so far (awaiting friend to send video), are on the first wave, but only after emptying all ballast.  still lots of push, so its possible to stay in one spot and ride straight, or start to carve in/out of the wave a little like @shawndoggy described.

I also find the first wave easier to eye my location since i'm used to surfing there and the wave face has lots of features to 'watch' so you can eyeball your location easier as i learn to 'feel' the push on a foil.  I struggle on the 2nd wave because i can't quite eye 'where' the wave really is so the push sneaks up on me and foil flies away.  i try to use the bubble line for left-right orientation, but thats iffy, and the forward/back part is super hard to judge on featureless rollers.  So by the time i feel or see that i'm off my spot, its too late.  (this obviously is doable with practice, but i'm not there yet).

[barefootpaul]

1 hour ago, shawndoggy said:

It's way more fun (IMHO/YMMV) on a small wave, running slightly faster, because the wave is CRAZY long, a little smaller (less intimidating), and you can get 2-3x farther back than you can on a surfboard.  minimal ballast and no wedge seem to work well for us (granted I've always got 400lbs of lead).

Interesting. I will try that next time. The first wave was a monster on the foil with a full surf setup.

[shawndoggy]

2 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

i try to use the bubble line for left-right orientation, but thats iffy, and the forward/back part is super hard to judge on featureless rollers.  So by the time i feel or see that i'm off my spot, its too late.  (this obviously is doable with practice, but i'm not there yet).

On my armstrong setup I can get outside of the wake a bit and still find some push.  That way I can actually see the roller down in front of me (heelside is a whole different animal).  But you are right about it being hard/weird at first.  The boat itself is a reference point on the first wake, and on the second wake it feels like everything is happening out in space.  

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, barefootpaul said:

Interesting. I will try that next time. The first wave was a monster on the foil with a full surf setup.

I tried on sunday with everything full, and I thought the boat was having an issue getting to speed because the wave was so short.  We started dumping the rear tanks till the wave got flat and long and it was way better.  Even a super tiny wave has plenty of push, and it's less likely to cause you to breach while you are learning than a massive surf wave.

[ctvandy23]

We mostly stay on the first wake with the front and center ballast full and add about 50% to left rear.  Push is great but like shawndoggy says, you are subject to breaching at any moment!  I will try this weekend with no ballast and see if that calms things down a bit.  Tried the second wave bit more today and was able to stay in for a bit, but I agree with Captain Morgan, hard to spot and stay in the pocket.  For ha has we tried the Axis png 1150 again today and it was still very tough to even get out of the water compared to the BSC 970.  Needless to say that the 1150 is up for sale.  Maybe it’s easy to pump and glide when you are really advanced, but it’s a beast to handle behind the boat!  On the other hand the 970 seems difficult to pump.  Probably our lack of skill, but nevertheless it’s a ton of fun for sure!!

[mxmark4]

Took the boat to Norris for the weekend and got a ton of foiling time in. Was riding ropeless and doing much better on my foil this time. Hyperlite had a rep out there so I got to try their mid level foil and board setup. Smaller wing size but was probably the hardest foil I have ridden yet. Even the rep had issues riding it. He was able to go ropeless on the second wake with it and I was able to toss the rope a couple times as well. It just seems to be one of those things that are hard to change quickly. Not like swapping surf boards for a few runs. Each wing flies so differently underwater it can really mess with you. Still excited to try anything I can get my hands on. 

[tspark]

Not a small wave but love getting far back and out on the first wave. A22 with Front middle and rear full but no pnp in the rear and 250 lead in the front and wedge at 3 running 11.5.  

[mxmark4]

 

The most recent foil ride. No ballast 11.5 mph. This was a learning experience on the foil here. 

[shawndoggy]

 https://www.instagram.com/p/CiKvOqQv5dq/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
 

 

[boardjnky4]

No pics but lately we've been riding low ballast, 12.5mph and the wave is crazy long and super fun. 

I'm riding a few-years old LF foil and I find it doesn't really like to go slow.

[Flyingsushi]

Here is our routine Foil Ride with 2001 Sunsetter LXI (with 1100lb balast)  Not small wake but not too big wake either…. We feel great for all round foiling….  11MPH.    Foil is Armstrong HS1550 V2, 72cm mast, V200 tail with 60cm fuse.  

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Flyingsushi

[shawndoggy]

5 minutes ago, Flyingsushi said:

Here is our routine Foil Ride with 2001 Sunsetter LXI (with 1100lb balast)  Not small wake but not too big wake either…. We feel great for all round foiling….  11MPH.    Foil is Armstrong HS1550 V2, 72cm mast, V200 tail with 60cm fuse.  

 

SICK!

[obski]

41 minutes ago, Flyingsushi said:

Here is our routine Foil Ride with 2001 Sunsetter LXI (with 1100lb balast)  Not small wake but not too big wake either…. We feel great for all round foiling….  11MPH.    Foil is Armstrong HS1550 V2, 72cm mast, V200 tail with 60cm fuse.  

 

That is awesome!

[John I.]

4 hours ago, Flyingsushi said:

Here is our routine Foil Ride with 2001 Sunsetter LXI (with 1100lb balast)  Not small wake but not too big wake either…. We feel great for all round foiling….  11MPH.    Foil is Armstrong HS1550 V2, 72cm mast, V200 tail with 60cm fuse.  

 

Nothing routine about that ride.     

[mxmark4]

Amazing ride! Cant wait to start learning transfers and getting into the second wake!

[CaptainMorgan]

23 hours ago, Flyingsushi said:

Here is our routine Foil Ride with 2001 Sunsetter LXI (with 1100lb balast)  Not small wake but not too big wake either…. We feel great for all round foiling….  11MPH.    Foil is Armstrong HS1550 V2, 72cm mast, V200 tail with 60cm fuse.  

 

good for you, looks like a blast.  

i am finally learning how to simply carve on the first wake - which is not only more fun, but means i can save small bobbles and that extends my runs into a few minutes each, which accelerates learning dramatically too.  need to focus on pumping next.

Also, I successfully foiled the 2nd wake for 15+ seconds yesterday and it was a totally unique/serene feeling to be in a super quiet (>70ft from boat), glassy/no bubbles spot just floating on the water -- hard to explain, but amazing and can't wait to get back out.

as a related question: anyone notice a big difference in the 2nd/3rd wave amplitudes based on ballast/settings?  the surf wave is a ton different, but report from friend couple weeks ago said that full ballast with Wedge4 vs Wedge lift a few weeks ago went unnoticed on 2nd wave.  i imagine full vs zero ballast will be some effect, but i'm just guessing its just so spread out by then that its hard to tell (at least by our skill level so far)

[CaptainMorgan]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:35 AM, martinarcher said:

Woah, that's wild.  I've not ridden the second with an unloaded boat.  If it's better that would be amazing.  

I have been amazed with how much push on 2nd wave even with little ballast. pic is from yesterday with <1000 lbs of h2o and 500 lbs lead. 11.5mph.

On a previous trip I had all ballast full (as we were alternating between surfers and foilers) and I swear bubble line with full ballast went further out from boat, reducing that super smooth portion outside of it.

And to @shawndoggy original point, after couple trips to gas dock, the low ballast sessions are nearly 2gph lower fuel consumption - and that's fuel in/boat hours that includes idling and whatnot; someone with a scan gauge can confirm instantaneous consumption differential, but my wallet gives 2 thumbs up.

[shawndoggy]

8 minutes ago, CaptainMorgan said:

I have been amazed with how much push on 2nd wave even with little ballast. pic is from yesterday with <1000 lbs of h2o and 500 lbs lead. 11.5mph.

On a previous trip I had all ballast full (as we were alternating between surfers and foilers) and I swear bubble line with full ballast went further out from boat, reducing that super smooth portion outside of it.

And to @shawndoggy original point, after couple trips to gas dock, the low ballast sessions are nearly 2gph lower fuel consumption - and that's fuel in/boat hours that includes idling and whatnot; someone with a scan gauge can confirm instantaneous consumption differential, but my wallet gives 2 thumbs up.

re the bubble line, were you running the wedge too? (never tried wedge on second wake, but on first it makes the turbulence no bueno imho).  

Like I said earlier in this thread, on our A24 I think there's more push / bigger wave without full ballast (peeps and lead), at least on the second wake.  Full ballast did something weird.  Our lead would always be up in the front of the boat for us too... such that the swim platform is 4"+ out of the water at rest. 

Are you running SG in this pic?  I do like SG on for second wake.  It's rideable without, but SG seems to "stand" the wake up a bit (more vertical / less of a "lump").

For sure on the gas burn!  I noticed this most acutely with our old boat (2016 T22) that had a smallish gas tank and would read E when down 35 gallons from full... an amount that we could consistently burn through with 4-5 hrs of surfing full.  When I started foiling we would have 5-8 gallons more in the tank at the end of the day (a very welcome margin of error).

Dang it, I'm putting the boat away this weekend.  bumming!

Edited October 7, 2022 by shawndoggy

[CaptainMorgan]

2 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

re the bubble line, were you running the wedge too?  

Like I said earlier in this thread, on our A24 I think there's more push / bigger wave without full ballast (peeps and lead), at least on the second wake.  Full ballast did something weird.  Our lead would always be up in the front of the boat for us too... such that the swim platform is 4"+ out of the water at rest. 

Are you running SG in this pic?  I do like SG on for second wake.  It's rideable without, but SG seems to "stand" the wake up a bit (more vertical / less of a "lump").

Dang it, I'm putting the boat away this weekend.  bumming!

No wedge, but Yes surf gate - concur that it helps straighten up the 2nd wave (as judged very scientifically by looking at it). 

Now that I can ride for minutes at a time on 2nd wave (recent phenomenon), I'll toy with it more. but, as you may notice from the full wetsuit, time is short. Water is like 60 and invites for crew arent returned as quickly as they were during the summer.