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410/M5 in 23 LSV?


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Hello All,

I have a friend looking at 23 LSV's. He doesn't want to order a 2021 so he is looking at 2018-2020's.  It seems like most of the dealer floor models are coming with the 410 or M5.  Is that motor big enough?  It seems to me like the 450 or M6 would be preferred but should he have any reservations with the 410 or M5 for surfing and overall performance?  Also, what prop would you recommend if he has to go with the 410/M5. Will not be at elevation.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts?

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There's a prop thread that's in the discussion now, but on the M5di.

I have it on a 23 LSV and love it.  There is absolutely no issues surfing fully loaded .. what so ever.  If you want to slam it for wakeboarding or are at elevation, feel free to upgrade the motor.  I find that 50% in the rear and everything else full produces the same wakeboard wake as 100% in the rear (b/c you are on plane).  This eliminates the complaints about not getting on plane quickly.

My opinion and love the M5di (and cost) .. The internet is broken b/c of the top 5%'ers who need it, so everyone needs it.

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Having had both the 410 and then 409 in my last two 23 LSV 's, I'd get those engines again without hesitation if I were ordering those same boats today. Elevation's isn't a factor for me either. 

The M5 in the 2020 will be enough for quite a few folks but it's not the engine I'd want in my 23 LSV. The change to a 2/1 transmission in 2020 has helped it quite a bit since the M5 paired with a 1.76 ratio in 2019 wasn't a good fit.

The differences between the 410/450 offerings over recent years were really just tuning and upgrading used to be a hotly contested topic. That's changed quite a bit with the M5/M6 line. Now the upgrade option, M6, is a significantly more capable engine (6.2L) than the M5 (5.3L).

I was really happy with the 2277 prop for low elevations, and then used my backup 2249 only for trips to higher elevations (~5,000').

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22 minutes ago, NWBU said:

Having had both the 410 and then 409 in my last two 23 LSV 's, I'd get those engines again without hesitation if I were ordering those same boats today. Elevation's isn't a factor for me either. 

The M5 in the 2020 will be enough for quite a few folks but it's not the engine I'd want in my 23 LSV. The change to a 2/1 transmission in 2020 has helped it quite a bit since the M5 paired with a 1.76 ratio in 2019 wasn't a good fit.

The differences between the 410/450 offerings over recent years were really just tuning and upgrading used to be a hotly contested topic. That's changed quite a bit with the M5/M6 line. Now the upgrade option, M6, is a significantly more capable engine (6.2L) than the M5 (5.3L).

I was really happy with the 2277 prop for low elevations, and then used my backup 2249 only for trips to higher elevations (~5,000').

Exactly my experience as well.

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I just picked up my 2020 23LSV.  It has the M6Di.  Wow, very nice and lots of power.  It even has sport mode, just like my Z4.  

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I have 18 with 410 using a 2249 at basically 0’ elevation.  Florida

 No problems at all surfing loaded with pnps and lead in bow.  Add people no problem still.  Probably could get away with 2277.

i would prefer the 2020 though because of the 2:1 trans and the 17” prop.  I hate the noise from the 3800rpm  running.  I  guessing the 17” takes it down like 600 rpm,  even 300 is much much quieter. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Dwake said:

I have 18 with 410 using a 2249 at basically 0’ elevation.  Florida

 No problems at all surfing loaded with pnps and lead in bow.  Add people no problem still.  Probably could get away with 2277.

i would prefer the 2020 though because of the 2:1 trans and the 17” prop.  I hate the noise from the 3800rpm  running.  I  guessing the 17” takes it down like 600 rpm,  even 300 is much much quieter. 

 

 

The 2277 will drop your RPMs by 300, which I agree is a big difference on the 410.

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My 2019 with the M5 has struggled on occasion.  Namely surfing in to a decent head wind with 5-6 people on board and close to 100% on all tanks.  In that scenario, the boat cant keep its cruise number.  This may have been fixed with the updated transmission ratio for the 2020 model.  That being said, my next boat will have the M6.

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5 hours ago, Dock4 said:

My 2019 with the M5 has struggled on occasion.  Namely surfing in to a decent head wind with 5-6 people on board and close to 100% on all tanks.  In that scenario, the boat cant keep its cruise number.  This may have been fixed with the updated transmission ratio for the 2020 model.  That being said, my next boat will have the M6.

What prop, what elevation.  Where was the people seated

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1 hour ago, Dwake said:

What prop, what elevation.  Where was the people seated

I’ll check on the prop...whatever came stock. Approximately 800 feet above sea level. People scattered. 
 

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I have the 410 in my 2019 23 LSV.  Surf at lower elevations and with full ballast.  Never had a problem even into the wind.  We do have the high altitude prop option from the factory, which is the 15X13.  I would buy it again in a heartbeat.  No need for the bigger motor.

Usually I have about 8 people (3-4 adults and 3-5 kids) on board.  Absolutely love the boat.

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410 is plenty 

6k elevation high alt prop

most weight in bow you can get

the engine noise annoys me - need to work out how to get more sound deadener in the engine bay 

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The m5 in a 23 will be a challenge loaded with a few people when wakeboarding. Very difficult to get up on plane.

will have no issues surfing fully loaded with several people in boat.

if you want a big wakeboard wake and do a lot of boarding, you’ll need the M6.

if you primarily surf and don’t need a slammed wakeboard wake when you board ... then the m5 is a great option.

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I have no dog in this fight, but how can they even think about supplying engine packages that can't even get the boat on plane to do basic activities, no matter the elevation?  This makes no sense to me.  Even if the boat does get on plane, such a hard life for a V8.  These boats need diesels badly.  

Edited by Jhucke
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3 hours ago, Jhucke said:

I have no dog in this fight, but how can they even think about supplying engine packages that can't even get the boat on plane to do basic activities, no matter the elevation?  This makes no sense to me.  Even if the boat does get on plane, such a hard life for a V8.  These boats need diesels badly.  

Can you imagine one of these boats fully loaded and sacked out rolling coal at 11mph with a surfer? I dont know if it would or not, but it would be a smoke filled mess. 

I think Pavati has a diesel option? It makes sense, but I know alot of the lakes around here (LOTO being an exception) dont have diesel available on the water. 

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9 minutes ago, COOP said:

Can you imagine one of these boats fully loaded and sacked out rolling coal at 11mph with a surfer? I dont know if it would or not, but it would be a smoke filled mess. 

I think Pavati has a diesel option? It makes sense, but I know alot of the lakes around here (LOTO being an exception) dont have diesel available on the water. 

The days of loud “coal rolling” diesels from the factory are over. My 2018 ram and my brother’s 2020 duramax roll no coal, and his is very quiet. Both are pretty much odorless. Now is recirculating the exhaust to clean it up good for the engine? That’s another discussion. With a 86 gallon tank, getting around no fuel at the dock doesn’t seem like a huge task.

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If you are still looking for feedback, my two cents is DON’T pay the extra money for a 450 over a 410 or M5. 450 is barely more engine than the 410 and isn’t worth the cost to upgrade. I’d choose the M5, if I had the choice, over the 410. More efficient, more torque where you need it most, quieter, etc. 2277 would seem to be the right prop for low altitude but I’d strongly consider the 2279 as it has less cup and will have a bit more on the low end---but are you able to run a 16.5 or 17" diameter prop with an M5 on the 23LSV? If he’s willing to splurge and get biggest bang for buck and never have any concerns...get one with the M6.

Edited by formerathlete
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11 minutes ago, formerathlete said:

If you are still looking for feedback, my two cents is DON’T pay the extra money for a 450 over a 410 or M5. 450 is barely more engine than the 410 and isn’t worth the cost to upgrade. I’d choose the M5, if I had the choice, over the 410. More efficient, more torque where you need it most, quieter, etc. 2277 would seem to be the right prop for low altitude but I’d strongly consider the 2279 as it has less cup and will have a bit more on the low end. If he’s willing to splurge and get biggest bang for buck and never have any concerns...get one with the M6.

I thought about this for a long while while planning my options.

We boat locally at 200 - 300 ft of elevation and vacation at 2,000 - 3,000 ft.  There are 6 in the family and all are adults, weddings are on the horizon, so lots of folks want to go out.

The M6Di became a no brainer.

 

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4 hours ago, dlb said:

I thought about this for a long while while planning my options.

We boat locally at 200 - 300 ft of elevation and vacation at 2,000 - 3,000 ft.  There are 6 in the family and all are adults, weddings are on the horizon, so lots of folks want to go out.

The M6Di became a no brainer.

 

Same here.  M6 was the "never worry about it" option.

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20 hours ago, COOP said:

Can you imagine one of these boats fully loaded and sacked out rolling coal at 11mph with a surfer? I dont know if it would or not, but it would be a smoke filled mess. 

I think Pavati has a diesel option? It makes sense, but I know alot of the lakes around here (LOTO being an exception) dont have diesel available on the water. 

It would take hardly any RPM to achieve this & with so much after treatment required on modern diesels, emissions would never be a problem. I would think the only reasons diesels aren't explored more is due to lack of marina fuel availability inland states & probably a supply issue, probably upfront cost.  What are the fuel tanks now, like 70 or 80 gallons? You'd probably get double the fuel efficiency surfing & longevity would be so good in comparison, also.

Edited by Jhucke
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ahopkinsVTX
23 minutes ago, Jhucke said:

It would take hardly any RPM to achieve this & with so much after treatment required on modern diesels, emissions would never be a problem. I would think the only reasons diesels aren't explored more is due to lack of marina fuel availability inland states & probably a supply issue, probably upfront cost.  What are the fuel tanks now, like 70 or 80 gallons? You'd probably get double the fuel efficiency surfing & longevity would be so good in comparison, also.

How are would all of the after treatment systems be packaged into a boat? Gas engines require a very small catalyst that can fit in the existing exhaust manifolds. Diesel exhaust takes much bigger and more catalysts to treat for today's standards. I don't argue the torque curves fit the boat model better, I just don't see how the the engine package would fit into the same space as they do know.

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On 5/15/2020 at 12:52 PM, ahopkinsVTX said:

How are would all of the after treatment systems be packaged into a boat? Gas engines require a very small catalyst that can fit in the existing exhaust manifolds. Diesel exhaust takes much bigger and more catalysts to treat for today's standards. I don't argue the torque curves fit the boat model better, I just don't see how the the engine package would fit into the same space as they do know.

I don't know.  My only response is, if nautique can package it, there's no reason malibu can't. 

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