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DUAL SUBS: Factory vs. Aftermarket


IXFE

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Man, your death chamber is like a ball room compared to the death chamber on my '01.  I spent about 30 mins sweating in there yanking out a bunch of goofy wiring the previous owner had run up the gunnel to connect the battery to their boat lift.  I swear the guy who installed that has stock in the zip tie company...

Looks good!

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Time to stop procrastinating and cut that hole!  As you can see from the pics below, I used a jigsaw with a fiberglass blade.  It was slow and made a big mess  I tried to vacuum it up as I was cutting, but it still left a lot of fiberglass dust to wipe up.  I have new respect for the folks in the factory who deal with this junk everyday  

You will also see that I had to go back and enlarge the hole a bit after my first attempt at box entry failed :Frustrated:

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Edited by IXFE
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Okay, not that I’ve cracked the helm open, it’s time to cover a couple of things related to box fitment.  In summary, there’s a lot going on under that helm!

1) The floor space in there won’t really accommodate much more than a 12” deep enclosure. If you go much beyond that, you will run into the cutout in the floor where your ballast hoses are coming up (the shiny black hoses on the left of pic 1). Also, if you have a heater you’re gonna run into the hard tube for the walk thru pull out (barely visible at the bottom right of pic 1, closeup shown in pic 2). There’s also a bunch of other heater hoses, but those are easier to move. 

2) The other issue you have is the placement of the heater core. It is mounted to the back of the helm wall, approximately 16” above the inside floor (top of pic 1). This doesn’t present any issues when the box is in place since the height was designed well short of this; however, when trying to rotate the box into position it definitely makes things interesting. 

EDIT: These pics were taken from the bow cutout, before I made the cutout below the helm. 

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Edited by IXFE
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Pic #1 - like a snake swallowing a mouse, the 25 LSV swallows the box!

Note: In Pic #1 the baffle is on the bottom. But as you will see in the next pic, I actually flipped it up and went at it again realizing it would be easier to rotate into position that way

Pic #2 - the view of the box coming in from the bow side. Right about now I was pooping my pants, thinking this isn’t going to work, and why did I do this to myself two years in a row?? I had to completely remove that hard plastic heater tube/sleeve (two screws on the walk thru side). There was no way the box would go deep enough to rotate with it there (as pictured).  

Pic #3 - After a lot of swear words and banging around, the box is rotated into position.  But as you can see from this pic, it’s too low (I knew it would be). This is because the floor behind the helm wall is actually about an inch lower than the floor of the cabin. You also have the lower lip of the helm cutout to account for. So the box needs to be raised to center the woofer in the fiberglass cutout. Not just for aesthetics, but also because you won’t be able to mount the woofer in this current position. Last year I did this using scrap pieces of starboard from the factory box I had ripped out. But I threw the rest of that box in a dumpster (whoops!) so I had to come up with something new. In one of my many mentoring sessions with @G Spot, he suggested just raising the front of the box (ie slight upward angle). I actually loved this idea because it more closely matched the slight angle of the helm wall.  So... 

Pic #4 & 5 - Same as before only I propped the front up with a role of painters tape to get a feel for how much lift I needed (if you look closely you can see the roll of tape in there).

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ahopkins22LSV

I always wondered what heartburn you guys had screwing into the floor. 
 

Your description of wandering Home Depot is also how they train their employees I think!

Great work, hopefully the other looking to do this are reading closely...

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1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

I always wondered what heartburn you guys had screwing into the floor. 
 

Your description of wandering Home Depot is also how they train their employees I think!

Great work, hopefully the other looking to do this are reading closely...

Screwing into starboard is easy, actually. I just make sure I pick screws that’s won’t go through the bottom. 

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  • Haha 1
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3 hours ago, Dock4 said:

@IXFE Mind sharing the tuning settings on your SynDx2.3 when you're all dialed in?

Here’s where it’s at right now... 

yup, that’s right... I’m running wide open to my Rev10’s  👊🏻

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Edited by IXFE
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23 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Here’s where it’s at right now... 

yup, that’s right... I’m running wide open to my Rev10’s  👊🏻

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Awesome, thanks! I’ll see if these settings take some of the harshness out of my Rev’s

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The REV10, like every known tower speaker, will not, can not, produce full range. The more you limit the bandwidth of both the amplifier and the Rev10s the more dynamic both the amplifier and speaker will perform. Set the amplifier on highpass (HIGH) and adjust the frequency until you detect the first hint of lost midbass. Then back the frequency down just a touch lower. That's as good as it gets.

   

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1 hour ago, David said:

The REV10, like every known tower speaker, will not, can not, produce full range. The more you limit the bandwidth of both the amplifier and the Rev10s the more dynamic both the amplifier and speaker will perform. Set the amplifier on highpass (HIGH) and adjust the frequency until you detect the first hint of lost midbass. Then back the frequency down just a touch lower. That's as good as it gets.

   

While I know what you're saying is right, and certainly wouldn't dispute the tried and true... out in the wild I've spoken to quite a few knowledgable and repeat Rev10 owners who choose to run them wide open.  I had four Rev10's on my 2019 also (powered by TWO Syndx4's) and I tried them both ways.  I'm not done tweaking my settings this year.  I need to spend more time on the water with it and not in the storage unit. What I posted above is simply my starting point.  

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23 minutes ago, IXFE said:

While I know what you're saying is right, and certainly wouldn't dispute the tried and true... out in the wild I've spoken to quite a few knowledgable and repeat Rev10 owners who choose to run them wide open.  I had four Rev10's on my 2019 also (powered by TWO Syndx4's) and I tried them both ways.  I'm not done tweaking my settings this year.  I need to spend more time on the water with it and not in the storage unit. What I posted above is simply my starting point.  

I hear you. I'll be glad to share more of an in depth explanation if invited.

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59 minutes ago, David said:

I hear you. I'll be glad to share more of an in depth explanation if invited.

Do I have the Bass Boost and Subsonic dials set correctly (all the way down)...?

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25 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Do I have the Bass Boost and Subsonic dials set correctly (all the way down)...?

yes.

I'm with david on crossing rev10s. You aren't gonna get subwoofer frequencies out of those tiny (for holding a 10) cans anyway, so why abuse the speakers by sending those frequencies there to begin with?  Listen with your ears (blind if possible).  Very doubtful you'd even be able to tell a difference if you cross them at 80 and def not at 60hz.  You aren't going to get that low rumbling boom that you do out of a sub.

Edited by shawndoggy
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14 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

You aren't going to get that low rumbling boom that you do out of a sub.

except my low rumbling boom is really a BOOM and it comes out of TWO subs. :yahoo:

back on topic.. 

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46 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Do I have the Bass Boost and Subsonic dials set correctly (all the way down)...?

Yes. Those two features are mainly for subwoofers. The 'Subsonic' is a low-cut that is more useful if using a smaller sealed subwoofer or especially useful for bass-reflex subwoofers. The 'Bass Boost' places a lot of extra stress on subwoofers, perhaps okay in a vehicle cabin at modest listening levels but too challenging in open-air systems where volumes levels are often much louder.

Don't mean to get this thread too far off topic because you've got lots of great info here.

   

Edited by David
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5 minutes ago, IXFE said:

except my low rumbling boom is really a BOOM and it comes out of TWO subs. :yahoo:

back on topic.. 

That's a great point!  When you set your x-over points (to your own satisfaction, by ear) do it without the subs on.  So you can really hear what you are "gaining" (har har pun intended) by running wide open.  It's gonna be totally meh at best.  Revs have killer midbass but that's farther up the EQ (beginning around 200ish).

Edited by shawndoggy
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Back to the build...

Pic #1 - 10ga speaker wire in place. I made this tail 24” long on each box. Obviously you’ve got to leave enough to connect to your woofer before it’s mounted, but not so much that you have a bunch of excess wire rattling around in there. 

Pic #2 - 6 oz of poly fill (same amount as the other sub). Why poly fill?  Honest answer, I’ve done it both ways. Last year I didn’t use any in my box for the JL 12W3v3-4. I just built the box to the exact volume spec that JL called for and left it empty (I’m a rule follower and JL documentation doesn’t call for any fill material). I liked that setup very much but felt it could have been a little better. There are a million variables but deep in my brain I wondered if it could have been better with some fill. I tend to push that thought out of my mind because I built the box to the right dimensions and poly fill is often used to “trick” a woofer into thinking it’s in a bigger box. And I didn’t necessarily want that. But in other years I’ve generally put a small amount of fill in regardless of box size. So :dontknow:. Anyway this year I decided to pivot the other way... fill the box with more (looks full but it’s loosely packed) but do it the same in both. This made me feel a little better about having a box that was (ever so slightly) smaller than the JL spec (0.988 vs. 1.0).  Also, as mentioned to @G Spot earlier, the added benefit is you won’t hear any speaker wire rattle. 

Pic #3 - The woofer is now mounted! 

Note: You will notice in all the pics there are two LED strips hanging off to the left. They are wired to the cabin lights on the starboard side (above the cup holders near the cooler). More on those later. 

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I would like to take this moment to chat about something I thought was super cool.  Apologies ahead of time if this is too “nerdy” for y’all. Honestly, it’s stuff like this I’m learning to love about JL Audio.

I’ll dive right in and talk about the the wiring of two subs to one amp, specifically ohms!  This is the puzzle I most enjoy about system builds... 

Unlike the 12W3 that I used last year, the 12W6 is a “dual voice coil” sub. That means it’s almost like two speakers in one. I’ve used DVC subs before (the Exile Xi12 DVC is one of my favorite subs and I’ve used it many times over the years in boats and cars). But a DVC sub adds another variable. Each of the coils of the 12W6 are 4ohm (like most speakers). But that means by definition it won’t present a 4ohm load to the amp. It will either present as 2ohm (if the coils are wired in parallel) or 8 ohm (if wired in series). But hold onto your hats, there’s more...

Adding a second 12W6 adds another wrinkle... do I want two 2 ohm subs or two 8 ohm subs?  Well that depends on your amp and also how you plan to wire the two subs together in relation to the amp. Follow closely as this can get confusing... 

A) If you wire two 2ohm subs in parallel you will get a 1ohm load at the amp.

B) If you wire two 2ohm subs in series you will get a 4ohm load at the amp 

C) If you wire two 8ohm subs in parallel you will get a 4ohm load at the amp.

D) If you wire two 8ohm subs in series you will get a 16ohm load at the amp

So now you gotta look at your amp. Most amps are only rated at certain ohm loads. Many are not stable at 1ohm. Some aren’t even stable at 2ohms (this is true of the Wetsounds amps that rely on bridging two channels together to make a sub channel). Also, almost all amps offer less power the higher the ohm load. So you gotta know what power you’re trying to push. Also consider that fact that power rating are almost always dependent on what voltage the amp is getting (most are rated at 14.4v but in real life you never see that). 

This is where the JL HD1200/1 comes into play. It has a “smart” power source that enables it to defy the laws of traditional amps. It modulates output so that it provides the same power regardless of ohm load and regardless of voltage. Check this out... 

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Thats right... with this amp you get 1200 watts no matter what!  Those of you who look at amp specs a lot know how unique this is. 

So which path did I pic?  Option C above. I planned to wire the coils on each sub together in series (turning each sub into 8ohm), then I planned to wire the two subs together in parallel (dropping the load back to a very manageable 4ohms at the amp). Here’s a picture to show what I planned to do ahead of time. 

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Now let’s talk about speaker wire. As you can see in that diagram above... TWO subs appear as ONE at the amp (ie one set of speaker wire).  So I started thinking about how I would wire the two sub boxes together inside my boat. And of course there are jumper wires I’d have to use on each sub. No biggie....

Then I cracked open the JL boxes and I learned the following: 

LESSON 1 - JL knows all this and even though the 12W6 is a DVC sub, unlike the diagram above, there’s only ONE set of speaker wire terminals. Huh?  That’s right!  They also include jumper wires to configure the sub as parallel (2ohm) or series (8ohm). In this pic I have the jumper positioned for series (8ohm). 


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LESSON 2 - The JL HD1200/1 is a mono amp, but when you look at the speaker wire outputs it looks like there are two channels. I was super confused by this. So I read the manual (go figure) and it explains that when you want to run dual subs, you can connect them both directly to the amp (ie as if it they are on separate channels) and the “parallel” wiring shown in the diagram above is done INSIDE the amp!  Maybe this is old news to some of you folks, but this blew my mind (and saved me a bunch of excess speaker wire). Look at this zoom-in of a precious pic I posted. See that there are TWO sets of speaker wire plugged directly into the HD1200/1. Also see the snip below taken directly from the owners manual. Brilliant!!


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Edited by IXFE
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Something worth sharing. Bruce MacMillian is known as the father of strictly regulated power amplifiers, which began with his designs at Precision Power, then Xtant, then the JL Audio Slash series, then the JL Audio HD series. For a number of reasons the JL Audio HD could be considered the most sophisticated mobile amplifiers on the planet. There's only one caveat that HD users should know about. As the supply voltage is reduced most amplifiers lose power. As noted, the HD maintains a consistent power output with a wide range of supply voltages. The benefits are more about sound quality than just the constant power #s. However, if you run this amplifier hard with inordinately low supply voltages, the amplifier regulated power supply has to work harder, and that can result in thermal issues. People who don't take care of their batteries, or run their batteries well past their lifespan, or continue operation at silly low supply voltages, might develop issues. Those that use them correctly, as well as correctly managing their battery(s) will never experience an issue. If I've ever heard a criticism of the HD series, I've always been able to trace it to a knucklehead who ran bad batteries down below reasonable levels.     

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Let me just say I’m getting very envious of your subs...I installed one of these in my 16’ VLX and I loved, loved it!  In my 19’. I went stock and can honestly say no comparison.  Would love to upgrade this year but haven’t given much thought to what and how I would do it!  

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5 hours ago, ctvandy23 said:

Let me just say I’m getting very envious of your subs...I installed one of these in my 16’ VLX and I loved, loved it!  In my 19’. I went stock and can honestly say no comparison.  Would love to upgrade this year but haven’t given much thought to what and how I would do it!  

There’s a thread for that!  And you’re in it!  

Or look up my thread from that year if you only want one sub. 

 

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