Light upgrades

[Eagleboy99]

Just the docking lights I think.

[ahopkins22LSV]

9 hours ago, dalt1 said:

Always wondered why the put them behind the wedge?

 

Even behind the wedge the 2019’s were pretty dang bright. The surf pipe blocked it more than anything. These are from our 2019. 

8 hours ago, asnowman said:

Looks like the is a front facing one in that picture.....

I’d guess docking lights. Which I discovered on ours the other day that they have high and low beam settings now. 2019 did have that. Double checked my build sheet and it doesn’t say anything different so maybe standard now? I think it was an option in prior years. 

[dalt1]

2 hours ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

Even behind the wedge the 2019’s were pretty dang bright. The surf pipe blocked it more than anything. These are from our 2019. 

I’d guess docking lights. Which I discovered on ours the other day that they have high and low beam settings now. 2019 did have that. Double checked my build sheet and it doesn’t say anything different so maybe standard now? I think it was an option in prior years. 

Agreed but still got to be better outside all the gear attached to the middle. My 18 scatters good light too!

[ahopkins22LSV]

Yeah, i am interested to see the difference in location.

[Beezer]

Those look great, what type of lights are those?

[Chia]

18 hours ago, hawaiianstyln said:

WOW and I thought I got a good deal on the LF9's for 199 right now.  LF9's are only 2,700 lumens per light with the same amp draw as yours but you get a wopping 5,500 lumens per light

time to upgrade!

[gregtay]

22 hours ago, gregtay said:

I couldn't pass this up... I just ordered a set of blue.  Not sure how much of a difference is between blue and white (as far as brightness) but blue sounded fun:)  

Received shipping notification today. 😀

[Eagleboy99]

40 minutes ago, gregtay said:

Received shipping notification today. 😀

Here at TMC we are always happy to help you spend your money. 

[ahopkins22LSV]

@gregtay and @asnowman, the vtx is only a 98” beam but I can get measurements off my boat tomorrow. I’ll take them in reference to the swim platform brackets. Should at least be a good starting reference for you. 

[gregtay]

1 hour ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Here at TMC we are always happy to help you spend your money. 

🙄😁😊

[gregtay]

1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

@gregtay and @asnowman, the vtx is only a 98” beam but I can get measurements off my boat tomorrow. I’ll take them in reference to the swim platform brackets. Should at least be a good starting reference for you. 

Thanks! 

[Pnwrider]

This might be my next quarantine project. Sounds way better than yard work. 

[asnowman]

13 hours ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

@gregtay and @asnowman, the vtx is only a 98” beam but I can get measurements off my boat tomorrow. I’ll take them in reference to the swim platform brackets. Should at least be a good starting reference for you. 

Thanks, really appreciate your help this far!

[ahopkins22LSV]

15 hours ago, gregtay said:

Thanks! 

 

3 hours ago, asnowman said:

Thanks, really appreciate your help this far!

Ok I think this will give you guys a good starting point. Was tough to do alone! Lol. Let me know if you guys need anything else!

 

[gregtay]

1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

 

Ok I think this will give you guys a good starting point. Was tough to do alone! Lol. Let me know if you guys need anything else!

 

awesome, thx!

[asnowman]

1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

 

Ok I think this will give you guys a good starting point. Was tough to do alone! Lol. Let me know if you guys need anything else!

 

how far off the bottom of the hull are they,  obviously a little different on a vtx and a 25lsv, but gives a good frame of reference as well. I know on the 240 they are mounted vertically, probably because of the stern turn

[ahopkins22LSV]

1 hour ago, asnowman said:

how far off the bottom of the hull are they,  obviously a little different on a vtx and a 25lsv, but gives a good frame of reference as well. I know on the 240 they are mounted vertically, probably because of the stern turn

In the first picture you can kinda see the bottom of the hull. I actually cropped that picture for that post. Here is the original. I can get actually measurements if needed. Also have this other picture that I didn’t originally post. 

[gregtay]

25 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

In the first picture you can kinda see the bottom of the hull. I actually cropped that picture for that post. Here is the original. I can get actually measurements if needed. Also have this other picture that I didn’t originally post. 

Super.  Hopefully I will get my boat back from the shop soon (waiting on a part from Malibu.. so who knows!) and then I will knock that project out.  Photos and measurements will help a ton.  Do you have the white lights or the blue ones?

[ahopkins22LSV]

Blue of course!

[asnowman]

1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

In the first picture you can kinda see the bottom of the hull. I actually cropped that picture for that post. Here is the original. I can get actually measurements if needed. Also have this other picture that I didn’t originally post. 

 

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Our water is super clear, so i ordered white lights, we usually use them swimming anyway. After all his time in the house, i can't wait to hit the water. It frickin snowed again this morning, just enough to be annoying. Lake still 44 degrees.... not warming much with current weather.

[ahopkins22LSV]

10 minutes ago, asnowman said:

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Our water is super clear, so i ordered white lights, we usually use them swimming anyway. After all his time in the house, i can't wait to hit the water. It frickin snowed again this morning, just enough to be annoying. Lake still 44 degrees.... not warming much with current weather.

It snowed here 3 days this week. I couldn’t even have driveway boat beers! Don’t worry, keep the requests coming. Even with it being really cold I’d rather go out to the boat!

[justgary]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:38 AM, store934 said:

Thanks.  That is what I assumed but after reading more from Lifeform they references Pulse-width modulation (a method of reducing the average power delivered by an electrical signal) as being the reason to a relay.

"However, on some of the newer Ski boats with Touch Screen Panels, caution has to be applied.  The newer boats use PDM (Power distribution modules) that communicate with the boat's touch panel via a communication link.  In order to control the LED lights via the touch panel (or aux switch), an auxiliary relay has to be installed to provide full power to our LIFEFORM LED lights, due to the PWM power output frequency of these PDM modules. Then the relay can safely be controlled from the PDM output. This will allow the lights to draw the full power they need to operate correctly, and operate at 100% light output".

I have no idea if Malibu is using PWM but from a little reading it sounds like PWM is a method to dim LED lights.   Sounds like the risk I run using the factory wiring not getting 100% light output and I suppose if the light it not designed to be dimmed, it could damage the light.

Not sure why the factory lights would not have this problem and Lifeform lights would...

There are two reasons to use PWM for LEDs.

The first is (as you mentioned) so you can dim the LEDs.  Using a low duty cycle pulse will make the LEDs seem dimmer than if you use a high duty cycle pulse.

The second is to make them brighter.  More on that in a moment.  Most common LEDs can take about 20 mA or so, and will overheat above that.  The brightness is correlated with the current.  New power LEDs have heat sinks, so you see previously unheard of power levels, easily exceeding 10W per LED.  This is one reason the manufacturer may warn you about turning them on out of the water, since they rely on the water to cool the mount, which is actually the heat sink.

Another way to keep them from overheating yet make them brighter is to intentionally overdrive them but only do it for a short time.  The average current is the same, but the perceived brightness is much higher because you are driving them much harder.  So basically, you can get them brighter by "dimming" them but using higher voltage.  The same thing about water cooling can apply here, so that's not a good indicator of whether your LED uses PWM.  The best way to tell if your LEDs use PWM is to look at the signal with an oscilloscope (or just ask the manufacturer).

I would not use a mechanical relay at all for PWM LEDs.  The relay will be too slow to respond, and you will end up with too much current and blow the LEDs while you make the relay hate you.  An LED driver designed for the voltage and current you need would be the best choice.  I really expect that most bright PWM LED modules have a driver built in, so the PWM is done inside, not outside the unit.  You wouldn't want to dim transom lights, anyway. 

The quotation from LIFEFORM above is misleading at best.  The recommendation to use a relay sounds like it is because the Power Distribution Module PDM is current limited, which makes sense.  In that case, a mechanical relay is great for getting the required power to the LEDs.  It doesn't matter if the LED itself (or its controller box) uses PWM, it only matters that it gets enough power to to its job.  On the other hand, if the PDM is trying to dim using PWM, a mechanical relay isn't fast enough or durable enough, so you should use a solid state relay made for DC (an LED driver) on that circuit.

What kind of power are these things up to these days, anyway?

[store934]

@justgary Thanks for the reply.  Looks like these life forms are about 3.5 watts / LED.

Power:12-24 Vdc (2.7Amps @ 12 Vdc) 32 Watts; Number of LED's: 9

After thinking about it more, I am guessing  Lifeform is just trying to provided the most fool proof solution no matter what the current config is for any boat. 

I don’t believe factory Malibu PDM is using PWM for lighting unless stock is RBG which seems to rely on PWM.  Using a relay also takes out an underpowered circuit and/or inadequate wiring.  

From what I can tell (with assumptions) is that Malibu is not using PWM on the factory underwater lighting (non-RGB), the wiring is adequate, and the stock circuit has 7.5 amps which should cover two lights at 5.4 amps, and LifeForm probably built in a PWM if the light needs one.

I have done a dry run using the factory strait to the Lifeform 9s (no relay) and so far they seem fine.  Having a hard time justifying adding the relay at this point beyond “ the install manual said to” but this is not my area of expertise so I am open to feedback if I should do it anyway to avoid future issues.  

Edited April 20, 2020 by store934

[justgary]

8 hours ago, store934 said:

@justgary Thanks for the reply.  Looks like these life forms are about 3.5 watts / LED.

Power:12-24 Vdc (2.7Amps @ 12 Vdc) 32 Watts; Number of LED's: 9

After thinking about it more, I am guessing  Lifeform is just trying to provided the most fool proof solution no matter what the current config is for any boat. 

I don’t believe factory Malibu PDM is using PWM for lighting unless stock is RBG which seems to rely on PWM.  Using a relay also takes out an underpowered circuit and/or inadequate wiring.  

From what I can tell (with assumptions) is that Malibu is not using PWM on the factory underwater lighting (non-RGB), the wiring is adequate, and the stock circuit has 7.5 amps which should cover two lights at 5.4 amps, and LifeForm probably built in a PWM if the light needs one.

I have done a dry run using the factory strait to the Lifeform 9s (no relay) and so far they seem fine.  Having a hard time justifying adding the relay at this point beyond “ the install manual said to” but this is not my area of expertise so I am open to feedback if I should do it anyway to avoid future issues.  

I think you are on the right track.

It would not surprise me to find out that Malibu has several output channels with PWM so they can run RGB or dimmable dash/interior lighting.  You pretty much need to use PWM for RGB so that you can blend the channel outputs and get the colors you want.  Also note that DC is simply 100% PWM, so the same channels could do both jobs.  If the PDM is giving 7.5 Amps at 12 VDC, you definitely don't need a relay.  If you need more power than the 7.5 A channel can provide, look into an LED driver that gives more power (yes, even if you only want it on at 100% or completely off).  By the way, I would not assume that a 7.5 Amp rating means that you should try to get 7.5 Amps from it continuously.  Check with Malibu to see if they added some headroom for continuous operation so you don't blow the output transistors trying to wring the last bit of magic smoke from it.  A relay or LED driver is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new module from Malibu.

In those cases where you need a DC mechanical relay, or in case you just need a way for me to spend your money, All Electronics carries surplus electronic stuff for reasonable prices.  Heck, just checking the price of relays and sockets caused me to consider making another huge order from them....  Anyways, I suspect that these relays are the same socket as your start/ECM/whatever relays, so having a spare in the boat is worth the cost.

https://www.allelectronics.com/item/rly-351/12vdc-spdt-40a-automotive-relay/1.html

https://www.allelectronics.com/item/srly-2/socket-for-automotive-relay/1.html

Be sure to spend the next four hours browsing their site and report your purchases in the "Lastest Purchase" thread in the Off Topic forum....  Heh heh heh.

[gregtay]

Lights arrived:).  (fast shipping!!)  Looks like I need a connector, just bare wires.  Does anyone know what I need to connect into the factory harness (My boat is still in the shop so I can't go and look to see what is there.)  Thanks!