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Dlapham

2019 23 lsv 410 motor at 4,200' elevation

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Dlapham

Hey there, looking at a slightly used 2019 23 lsv with the 410 motor. Any concerns at 4,200' elevation with loaded ballast and people for surfing. No interest in wakeboarding. Thanks for the help. 

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NWBU

I had the same boat at a 4,900’ lake for a few days last summer.  We had to make a few more changes to accommodate the altitude than I preferred but it was ok for the weekend. I’d want more engine though if I was based at that elevation.

I used a higher torque prop for the elevation, a 2249, but still had to drop some weight from the rear tanks to be able to get up to surf speed. Starting with the wedge in Lift helped too, but keeping enough weight up front was pretty important with the higher elevation.

Any chance you can demo at that altitude? There’s other prop options that might work better too.

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Bman1

Get the 450

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Dlapham
17 hours ago, NWBU said:

I had the same boat at a 4,900’ lake for a few days last summer.  We had to make a few more changes to accommodate the altitude than I preferred but it was ok for the weekend. I’d want more engine though if I was based at that elevation.

I used a higher torque prop for the elevation, a 2249, but still had to drop some weight from the rear tanks to be able to get up to surf speed. Starting with the wedge in Lift helped too, but keeping enough weight up front was pretty important with the higher elevation.

Any chance you can demo at that altitude? There’s other prop options that might work better too.

Thanks so much! I will look for the 450 motor. Hate to spend this kind of money and be under powered for an additional 5% in cost. 

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eubanks

I've got the M5 (similar HP) and have been disappointed with the performance at near sea level.  I don't think you'll be happy long-term at that altitude.

 

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pauley71

There continues to be a lot of misinformation provided in these posts.  The M5di / 410 is perfectly fine for heavily weighted surfing and moderately weighted wakeboarding.  I've had 4 boats in 4 years and I ALWAYS order the base motor b/c it does everything I need without a premium.  I run full ballast + PNP + ~800lbs in the nose with 5-6 adults - no issues.

If you like to slam the boat and have a large wakeboard crew ... OR ... you are at high elevation, yes - go with the M6 / 450.  

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RyanB

I can't speak to the new motors, but when I was buying everyone said that the 450 was fine.  I will tell you that if I were doing it again, I would go with the SuperCharged engine.  My boat does well at 5000', but I have had it up to over 8000', and I can't use much if any plug and play at those elevation (and I do have 300 pounds of lead in the bow).

I'd recommend you trial any boat you are considering, and do it wherever and however you will run it.  There isn't much worse than spending big $$$$$$ on a boat, and being unhappy with it.

Edited by RyanB

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gregtay
1 hour ago, pauley71 said:

There continues to be a lot of misinformation provided in these posts.  The M5di / 410 is perfectly fine for heavily weighted surfing and moderately weighted wakeboarding.  I've had 4 boats in 4 years and I ALWAYS order the base motor b/c it does everything I need without a premium.  I run full ballast + PNP + ~800lbs in the nose with 5-6 adults - no issues.

If you like to slam the boat and have a large wakeboard crew ... OR ... you are at high elevation, yes - go with the M6 / 450.  

2020 M5 might be better (bigger prop/ratio) but the 2019 M5 setup has had mixed reviews by people who one it... so while you are happy with yours I'm not sure I'd go as far to say that there is "misinformation" on the M5... some people have struggled to get the performance expected with that motor (being the base offering) in their 2019 23's and I don't think they would choose the M5 again if they had a choice.

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NWBU
2 hours ago, gregtay said:

2020 M5 might be better (bigger prop/ratio) but the 2019 M5 setup has had mixed reviews by people who one it... so while you are happy with yours I'm not sure I'd go as far to say that there is "misinformation" on the M5... some people have struggled to get the performance expected with that motor (being the base offering) in their 2019 23's and I don't think they would choose the M5 again if they had a choice.

Agree, the M5 would probably be worse than the PCM 410 in the question he’s asking about at 4,100’, at least for the 2019s. After the transmission and prop upgrade in 2020, that’s a whole different setup that hasn’t seen much real world use yet on TMC.

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Dlapham
19 hours ago, NWBU said:

Agree, the M5 would probably be worse than the PCM 410 in the question he’s asking about at 4,100’, at least for the 2019s. After the transmission and prop upgrade in 2020, that’s a whole different setup that hasn’t seen much real world use yet on TMC.

I was told by the dealer selling the 2019 with the 410 motor that the transmission ration is 172 to 1. He also stated there is not much difference between the 410 and 450 at surf speeds. If looking for top end.. faster skiing speed, he suggests the 410. 

Just curious what you think? Do the 2020's have a 2 to 1 trans ratio?

 

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NWBU

450 is just a tuned 410 so I’m not sure why the 410 would be better for speed/skiing?

2020’s have the 2:1 transmission and 17” prop.

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RyanB
3 hours ago, Dlapham said:

I was told by the dealer selling the 2019 with the 410 motor that the transmission ration is 172 to 1. He also stated there is not much difference between the 410 and 450 at surf speeds. If looking for top end.. faster skiing speed, he suggests the 410. 

Just curious what you think? Do the 2020's have a 2 to 1 trans ratio?

 

Being cynical, I would say that the dealer is just trying to sell the boat that they have on the lot.

I'd push back on him a little more and get a copy of both the torque and HP curve of both engines, and decide more for yourself on what the differences are in the engines.

And I can't think of a reason that less HP would be better for higher speeds (which really doesn't matter at all to me in a surf boat).

 

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JeffC

Just my $.02...   I have a 2017 22VLX. with the 410, turning the torque prop (Acme 2249) on a diamond hull.   I have 550s in the rear lockers.   Slightly smaller boat, less weight (not sure by how much however).   My primary lake full pool is 5430'.      I have found that my optimum surf configuration is 8-9 adults, full stock hard tanks, and somewhere between 80-100% full PnP bags, depending on where people are seated.   I adjust the ballast on the fly to get the best balance of wave, and how hard Im working the engine.    I think my gearing is 1.76, could verify that if needed.   

The 410 does fine, although I would say at this altitude it is probably on the edge.    I can easily achieve and maintain plane with that optimal load, but Im running at 3800 RPM.   If I start creeping over that, I either move weight to the bow, or dump some rear ballast.   The 22VLX seems to love bow weight.  I assume the 23LSV is the same.   From the research I did when I bought the boat, there is very little advantage of the 450 over the 410 for surfing, but a pretty hefty price premium.    The torque curves literally lay on top of each other up to 3800 RPM, then the 450 does better.   If I were still slalom skiing the 450 probably would be a good choice, but Im too old, too fat, and too out of shape to do that any more :-).    I would like to be able to surf at a lower RPM, but the 450 would not give me that - I think a prop with more bite would just lug.   If I needed more top speed, maybe the 450 would help.  My top end is around 36 right now... but after a few years of owning the boat, I pretty much never run wide open for more than a minute or two.    Other than letting her stretch her legs from time to time, I see no reason to burn that much gas. 

Having said that, I have NEVER heard anyone complain about too much power in a boat.   If you have the cash, the supercharged 575 would be the right answer.   

If you are interested, the torque curves are on the site... Im too lazy to look up the post at the moment that has the California CARB results, but I have posted the link in multiple threads before... If I can find it quickly, Ill edit it in here. 

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JeffC
On 2/25/2020 at 3:32 PM, RyanB said:

Being cynical, I would say that the dealer is just trying to sell the boat that they have on the lot.

I'd push back on him a little more and get a copy of both the torque and HP curve of both engines, and decide more for yourself on what the differences are in the engines.

And I can't think of a reason that less HP would be better for higher speeds (which really doesn't matter at all to me in a surf boat).

 

Im always a cynic, and a salesman ALWAYS wants to sell what they have.  (yes, I have been in sales in my time.   There is precisely NO paycheck in selling something you dont have :crazy:). 

But in this case, I dont think there is much difference in the 410 vs the 450 for surfing at altitude (unless you like running at high RPM).   For the life of me, I cant see how the 410 would be better for higher speeds... its not like there is a weight savings, its nothing more than an ECM tune.

BTW and off topic... Hope to see you on the 'Tooth this year.   We have our two weeks in early July. 

 I.   CANT.   WAIT.     Im so sick of snow and wind.   Booked my summerization this morning.   At least that made me feel a LITTLE better.

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Dlapham
On 2/25/2020 at 11:50 AM, Dlapham said:

I was told by the dealer selling the 2019 with the 410 motor that the transmission ration is 172 to 1. He also stated there is not much difference between the 410 and 450 at surf speeds. If looking for top end.. faster skiing speed, he suggests the 410. 

Just curious what you think? Do the 2020's have a 2 to 1 trans ratio?

 

Sorry guys, dealer said the 450 was better for skiing, not the 410. Typo on my part. I will look at the torque and Hp curves.

i appreciate all your input. 

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JeffC
1 hour ago, Dlapham said:

Sorry guys, dealer said the 450 was better for skiing, not the 410. Typo on my part. I will look at the torque and Hp curves.

i appreciate all your input. 

That makes more sense to me  :)   More torque above 3800 RPM should improve performance at higher speeds.    To be clear, had the premium to get the 450 on mine NOT been over $6K, I would have ordered it.   If there is a reasonably priced ECM tune available after my warranty runs out, I will probably do it.   But for my use anyway, it just was not worth the incremental $$ on a boat that was already NOT in the budget (yup, it was the best impulse buy I have ever made.   EVER!)

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iominject

I have a 2017 22MXZ with the 410 and the 2249 prop at 4200’.  I only surf and it works perfectly. The only caveat is it likes weight up front.  I run 250 lbs of lead weight in the front.  I fill the front and mid tanks full and the back tanks with the 550 lbs of plug and play 1/2 to 3/4 depending on how many people we have.  I have found this to be the best setup with the speed at 10.8 to 11.2 depending on the rider.  Wedge setting wherever you want for wave shape.  Boat never struggles and is always strong out of the hole with the rpms 3400-3800 depending on the wedge setting.

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CJAY
On 2/24/2020 at 12:42 PM, RyanB said:

I can't speak to the new motors, but when I was buying everyone said that the 450 was fine.  I will tell you that if I were doing it again, I would go with the SuperCharged engine.  My boat does well at 5000', but I have had it up to over 8000', and I can't use much if any plug and play at those elevation (and I do have 300 pounds of lead in the bow).

I'd recommend you trial any boat you are considering, and do it wherever and however you will run it.  There isn't much worse than spending big $$$$$$ on a boat, and being unhappy with it.

Same, I've had 2 boats with the 450.  A 23 LSV and a 22 VLX, neither performed where I wanted at alt.  The 23 really didn't.  I've got the super charged engine in my 25 LSV and I haven't met a weight point and can plane out with yet.

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SCMike
Posted (edited)

I had the 410 on my 2017 21lvx and now have the 450 in my 2018 23lsv.  I can tell you they are very different motors.  The 450 is a beast compared to the 410.  Although the the torque curves are nearly the same up to 3500 or so, the real difference is in the higher RPM band when you are on full throttle getting on plane.  RPMs are in the 4500 range when you slam the throttle down, and you can really feel the power then.  One the boat planes, the RPMs settle down and it doesn’t really matter as much.

Having owned both, I would not go back to a 410, especially with a 23lsv. 

 

Edited by SCMike

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agarabaghi

Are we talking 409 / 450 pcm? With 15” prop and 1.76:1 ratios? 
they are similar the 450 might have a bit more unf but it’s hardly an upgrade. The 450 with 2:1 and 17” prop will handle a big boat fully weighted no issue.

m5 with 15” and 1.76:1 ratio will outperform the 409 from my experience. I’d even put it against a 450, but I’ve only use the 450 in 17” prop boats. 
 

the m6 is a whole different class of power.

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JeffC
2 hours ago, SCMike said:

I had the 410 on my 2017 21lvx and now have the 450 in my 2018 23lsv.  I can tell you they are very different motors.  The 450 is a beast compared to the 410.  Although the the torque curves are nearly the same up to 3500 or so, the real difference is in the higher RPM band when you are on full throttle getting on plane.  RPMs are in the 4500 range when you slam the throttle down, and you can really feel the power then.  One the boat planes, the RPMs settle down and it doesn’t really matter as much.

Having owned both, I would not go back to a 410, especially with a 23lsv. 

 

Good feedback... I cant say I have noticed an issue with the hole shot... BUT... I have not experienced the 450 first hand.   Certainly worth thinking more about that.   You certainly cant have TOO much power in a boat, and the bigger it is, the more power you need. 

If/When I upgrade, I may well go the high end motor... Im not sure (meaning I really DONT know) for my use If the 450 would have been worth the extra 7K.... but if I could have swallowed the 575 pill I probably would have... and if I buy a bigger boat (think my better half wants one some day) I will want all the power I can get.  I would guess the 22 VLX is about as big of a boat as I would want with the 410. 

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