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Pbliton29

Sunscape 23 LSV for surfing and wakeboarding

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Pbliton29

Hi everyone- new to the crew.

Upgrading from 2000 bayliner to a wakeboard boat for better boarding, and to be able to surf, but still want to ski some.  However, don’t want to sacrifice surfing for skiing.

Is the Sunscape 23 LSV a good option?  Or should I go to a “true” waleboars and surfing boat?

Would the ballasts that would need to be added be able to fill and empty electronically, or would weight have to stay there? (For easy transition from ski to surf).

New to the surfing and ballasts stuff, would appreciate any input.

Thanks!

Paul

 

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malibudog

Ballast and automation have changed substantially over the years.  If you could give us an idea of what year boat you are anticipating purchasing, and what your approximate budget is, you may get more helpful responses.  

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Slurpee

You'll want to make sure the Sunscape has the Manual Wedge.  It was an option only on the Sunscapes so the one you are looking at might not have it.  I had to get one aftermarket for my Sunscape.  You'll also want to get a suckgate for surfing.  There are so many varieties.  I recommend getting whatever Wakemakers or your local dealer sells so you can return it if unhappy.

That boat probably does not have any ballast at all on board.  So you'll want a bag in your ski locker, a bag in the bow, and a bag in each rear locker.  You might even end up with a bag on the seats if you don't go out with lots of crew.

If you want that quickly switch back and forth to skiing aspect then you'll need a pump on each bag.  Depending on the year of the Sunscape you might need to upgrade your alternator and wiring to the helm to handle the current draw of all those pumps.

Get all that done and you'll have one hell of a crossover boat.  I miss mine.  And I did all that above and loved it.  But it's a lot of work.  Gets expensive fast.  And you'll mess up some learning so factor that stress in.  But with enough displacement it's a good wakeboarding and surfing boat.  All you need if you're getting started.

Other options are find a Wakesetter with a diamond hull (basically a sunscape or sunsetter package) and you'll at least have some tanks and pumps already in there.  Or go look at something a bit newer like a VTX.  The newer the boat the better automation that's already implemented.

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srab

The typical "Sunscape" will have no plumbed-in ballast, and possibly no tower.  You will likely have to have either/both added (unless previous owner has already had it done for you).

It will, however, have the "diamond hull," which is what you will want for skiing.

There is no "easy transition from ski to surf" without plumbed-in ballast (I own a Sunscape, without, and its a 30 minute process to fill all of my Fat-Sacs, employ the wedge, and attach a suck-gate to switch to surfing). Surfing requires that the boat be pretty much as heavy as possible, while skiing, pretty much as light as possible (except for maybe some added bow weight to help flatten the wake).

A 23 foot boat, even on the diamond hull, is not likely to ever be great for skiing (too big, too heavy).  But, coming from a Bayliner I/O, it'll still be a huge improvement.

On the other hand, appropriately weighted, that 23 foot boat can be really good/great for boarding and surfing.

Good luck with your search.

 

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Arctic Slalom

i've owned a '04 Sunscape 21 with diamond hull for about 6 years. 

Manual wedge, fully plumbed ballast (2) 750's in each rear locker and a 500 lbs bag in ski locker. 

We also use a suction gate on the side and have a samson blade tower.  

It's a freaking great crossover boat. We surf it, slalom ski, tube, wakeboard, you name it. 

The 21 is just OK at surfing, but my kids love it and all three of them can go ropeless till we run out of gas.  I think if you weight down a 23 with wedge it will be a really decent surfboat. 

Of course, a $100K Wakesetter 23 will be better, but for me, the crossover (Sunscape) is really nice. 

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Pbliton29

Thanks everyone!

I am also looking at a 2011 Wakesetter 23 LSV (instead of the Sunscape).  It comes with 4 hard ballast tank and power wedge, but not surf gate. 

Would I need an extra ballast bag to surf? If so- would this be a quick fill and empty electronically, or take some time?

We are coming from a Bayliner Capri 21 foot 225 HP inboard.  Would skiing on the Wakesetter be better or worse than the Bayliner?  Would it even be doable if only had weight in the front?

I am very much an amateur with wakeboats- really appreciate everyone's help!

Paul

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Pbliton29
2 hours ago, malibudog said:

Ballast and automation have changed substantially over the years.  If you could give us an idea of what year boat you are anticipating purchasing, and what your approximate budget is, you may get more helpful responses.  

Looking at a 2011 Wakesetter, and 2011 Sunscape 23 LSV.  Also looking at Moomba Mobius XLV.

We are selling our 2000 21' Bayliner Capri 225.  This was good for skiing, moderate to wake boarding.

We are hoping for something to be able to surf and wakeboard much better, but also still ski and slalom at times.  Ideally,  the easier to operate the better (electronic ballasts, wakeplate etc) 

Would like to stay under 50k and hours under 350. 

Thanks!!

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dwc032

Don’t worry about hours if it’s well taken care of. Heck my 13 23 LSV has 750 hours on it. Other then it having some hiccups when it was new, it hasn’t missed a beat for over 675 hours. 

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asnowman

I think you will notice a good upgrade in slalom over the bayliner regardless of sunscape or wakesetter. You will probably need to ski a little faster, like 32 mph, and have a little weight in the bow. You should find a softer wake, with a flatter table at about 15 off, compared to the bayliner. And the pull out of the water will be much better.  When we bought our first 23lsv, we were coming out of a glastron, night and day difference.

Personally i would stay away from the mobius if skiing will remain a focus.  There are a couple of those down the way from us, and they don't ever seem to have what I would call a nice wake. Looks terribly hard at ski speeds, and not near as nice to surf as our 02 23lsv was (and we didn't try real hard at it back then). 

Biggest difference between the sunscape and wakesetter is the hull. In 2011, the sunscape came on a diamond hull, better for skiing, the wakesetter on the wake hull. Many of the sunscapes i have seen, had all the ballast installed, but you need to verify as it was an option vs being standard on the wakesetters. Personally i never noticed a difference between them for surfing. Either way it will be a huge upgrade for you.

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malibudog

There are three main factors I would look for if I wanted to go from skiing to surfing relatively quickly.  Ballast, Wedge and Gates.

Ballast - For boats with no factory ballast, you are going to have to add weight to surf.  When we started surfing a long, long time ago, we had tupperware tubs from Home Depot that we filled with a Homer Bucket by hand.  The next level of automation up is to have bags that you can unfold, put in the compartments or on the seats, and have a pump or two that you connect to power and throw overboard.  Probably takes 10 minutes or so per bag, and you have to drag out the pumps and bags (but it's still better than buckets).  The next level of automation is to plumb your bags into an automated fill system.  This involves accessing or creating one or more thru hull holes in the boat, connecting a pump and plumbing, and then typically having a second set of plumbing to drain the bags (with reversible pumps, you can have one set of plumbing, but there are trade offs).  You also typically have to have plumbing that acts as a vent, for overflow and  air flow.  The third level of automation is to have hard tanks built into the boat.  The plumbing is already there, and you fill the tanks by pushing buttons.  In my experience, most people who surf regularly consider the hard tanks built into most models of boats to be insufficient to create a satisfactory wave.  Thus, most people add "plug and play" bags on top of their hard tank systems, which can be easier than just adding bags to a boat with nothing, but it still often requires plumbing and wiring.  The top level of automation in ballast involves having hard tanks and a plug and play system built into the boat.  You won't find that from the factory in the years you are looking at, but you might find a used boat where someone has already fully automated the ballast system.

Wedge:  Malibu's wedge creates downforce as the boat speeds up.  It thus acts somewhat like ballast without adding water.  It is very valuable for increasing the size of a surf wave, but it is not sufficient to alleviate the need for ballast.  There is an automated wedge and a manual wedge.  I have never had a manual wedge, so can't speak to how much better the automated version is.  I would encourage you to look for boats with a wedge if you want to surf.

Gates:  Without gates of some kind, you have to tip the boat to one side by loading weight on one side only, in order to create a surf wave.  Gates skew the rear of the boat to one side when the boat is in motion, and so you can load the boat with ballast evenly, and apply or open a gate on one side only.  Gates still require ballast (in order to sink the back of the boat), but make it much quicker to switch sides.  I am a big believer in gates, and liked the wave I got with less weight and gates better than what I got by just placing lots of ballast on one side - but some people disagree.  I initially built gates of my own, which attached to the platform with a pin, and I could put the right one on and take the other one off in less than 2 minutes.  Now, there are many aftermarket gates.  For the money, if it was me, I would invest in an aftermarket gate product, or at the very least try one out, if I wanted to go from skiing to surfing fairly quickly.

There are more factors (the hull, the tower, the type of board you want to surf, etc), but if you really want to surf, I would look for a boat where someone has already added some automated ballast, a wedge, and I would add gates.  I would probably prioritize the ballast and the gate, since the wedge is probably most useful for tweaking a surf wake, rather than building it.

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UWSkier

If you want to ski, find a boat with the diamond hull.  Diamond hulled boats still board and surf extremely well.  It's a little harder to make a non diamond hulled boat ski well.

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Pbliton29

Thanks everyone!

On a wakesetter-Is it worth getting the attitude plate to improve ability to ski?  Or on the other end an after market surf gate?  And is a wedge necessary?

Appreciate all the input!

 

Paul

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Slurpee

No, yes, yes. My opinion. Find a diamond hull boat. Wakesetters occasionally have diamond hulls. Mine does. 

Edited by Slurpee

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Pbliton29
9 hours ago, Slurpee said:

No, yes, yes. My opinion. Find a diamond hull boat. Wakesetters occasionally have diamond hulls. Mine does. 

Thanks!  Besides asking- what is the best way to find out if it is a diamond hull?  
 

Are wakeboarding and surfing still good behind a diamond hull?

And skiing good behind a wake hull?

Thanks!

 

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Slurpee
28 minutes ago, Pbliton29 said:

Thanks!  Besides asking- what is the best way to find out if it is a diamond hull?  
 

Are wakeboarding and surfing still good behind a diamond hull?

And skiing good behind a wake hull?

Thanks!

 

The effect of the diamond hull doesn't really kick in until about 30mph.  Give or take depending on the length of the hull and weight.  So it's a don't care on surfing and wakeboarding.  It might increase the tendency to porpoise a little bit at cruising speeds in the mid-20's.  A little weight in the bow (like a person or filling a tank) takes care of that no problem if that's a speed you want to cruise at for some reason.

As for telling the difference, then here.

Back when the Surfgate was first announced I was DESPERATE to get out on the water after having spent 6 months taking care of a newborn.  And I was the definition of a bored engineer.  So I made one of the first DIY surfgates.  I called it the SlurpeeGate.  It was attached to the teak platform with a pin and was a game changer.  I went from having to surf a few feet off the platform as was the norm with ballast and a list to being able to surf nearly as well as I can on my 2016.  And there was no draining and filling bags to go from side to side for the goofy and normal folks.

Here's some video of the day I got the angle right on the gates finally.  Later I added more ballast bags and this got even better.  There is no replacement for displacement.

 

 

 

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asnowman

@Pbliton29 Post up links to listings, and i am sure you will get many opinions and tons of good advice. One thing we all love is spending other people's money!

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Pbliton29
3 hours ago, asnowman said:

@Pbliton29 Post up links to listings, and i am sure you will get many opinions and tons of good advice. One thing we all love is spending other people's money!

https://www.tommysofdetroit.com/default.asp?page=xPreOwnedInventoryDetail&id=7601051&p=1&s=Year&d=D&year=2011&fr=xPreOwnedInventory

 

Here is the boat.  2011 Wakesetter 23' LSV, supposedly 275 hours for 50k.  It seems a decent deal to me- likely due to the staining on the vinyl from the canvas.  Thoughts?

 

Here is an '08 Moomba XLV 23' with 430 hours for 32k.  Also seems like a good deal.  Thoughts on each of these? @Slurpee

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/436336570313365/?ref=messenger_banner

 

 

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Slurpee

@Pbliton29, I don't like either.  That vinyl is gone.  That's not stain.  I think the consensus back then was that was the glue and/or other parts of the backside of the vinyl bleading through to the surface.  Exacerbated by the heat of the cover in the sunlight.  I'm totally running on vague memory there though. Search here and you'll find threads galore on it.

Honestly, go buy this one.  $5k cheaper.  Wakesetter with a diamond hull.  Clean.  Has ballast.

 

https://www.onlyinboards.com/2010-Malibu-Boats-Wakesetter-23-LSV-for-sale-Cincinnati-Ohio-102791.aspx

 

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wdr
18 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

@Pbliton29, I don't like either.  That vinyl is gone.  That's not stain.  I think the consensus back then was that was the glue and/or other parts of the backside of the vinyl bleading through to the surface.  Exacerbated by the heat of the cover in the sunlight.  I'm totally running on vague memory there though. Search here and you'll find threads galore on it.

Honestly, go buy this one.  $5k cheaper.  Wakesetter with a diamond hull.  Clean.  Has ballast.

 

https://www.onlyinboards.com/2010-Malibu-Boats-Wakesetter-23-LSV-for-sale-Cincinnati-Ohio-102791.aspx

 

Got to agree on this one, it appears to be well taken care of. If the bilge looks anything like the rest of the boat does, it should be a winner. Don't mind the hours either. I had 1024 on my '10 LSV when I sold it and it was running like new!

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Pbliton29
19 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

@Pbliton29, I don't like either.  That vinyl is gone.  That's not stain.  I think the consensus back then was that was the glue and/or other parts of the backside of the vinyl bleading through to the surface.  Exacerbated by the heat of the cover in the sunlight.  I'm totally running on vague memory there though. Search here and you'll find threads galore on it.

Honestly, go buy this one.  $5k cheaper.  Wakesetter with a diamond hull.  Clean.  Has ballast.

 

https://www.onlyinboards.com/2010-Malibu-Boats-Wakesetter-23-LSV-for-sale-Cincinnati-Ohio-102791.aspx

 

Thanks Slurpee! 

The one you posted appears to be the same cost, right?  But 560 hours vs 250?  

Is the vinyl issue an ongoing one? Or cosmetic only?  IE- if I could get new vinyl on it, would it be problem solved?  Is it functional on its own as it is, and only looks goofy?  

And what are the big reasons against the 08 Moomba?

Again- sorry for all the questions- new to the wakeboating world.  Thank you

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Eagleboy99

Look up "vinyl pinking".  You like have the chemical variant; but some bacterial influence is possible.  Regardless it is toast.  Take 10 grand off the offer price and get a new interior.

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Pbliton29
4 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Look up "vinyl pinking".  You like have the chemical variant; but some bacterial influence is possible.  Regardless it is toast.  Take 10 grand off the offer price and get a new interior.

Is this only a cosmetic problem?  To be honest- the color doesn't bother me much.  But it it'll make it rot, or be harmful to humans, dogs skin etc- then that's a large issue.

 

Thanks!

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QmanBu

The boat is just flat out too expensive especially when compared to the one Slurpee posted.  The color might not bother you much, but to everyone else its a major red flag. Replacing a seat or two due to seam splitting isn't a big deal but spending 50g and knowing you basically need a whole new interior gives you an indication of how the previous owner treated it. 560 hours for a 2010 is nothing. Call it 50 per year which is normal use around the midwest and nothing on these motors. If fluids and maintenance are done, there is nothing to worry about. 

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asnowman

If i recall, its more than glue staining. Fwiw, here is the interior of the 2011 vtx we traded out this year. It shouldn't be all pink. I have only ever seen vinyl look like that when its been left out year round, or cleaned with something very harsh.

20190826_115639.thumb.jpg.b7d6465cbbdbab0cdb5ac1f13b668051.jpg

Have to agree with @Slurpee i would buy the 2010 that look well maintained vs the 2011 tgst looks like it has been neglected badly.  I looked at many boats in the last year, and in general, if it looked neglected, it was, and you never know how its been treated. If it still looks near new 9 years later, you figure that one out.

As for he moomba, go sit in it, then go sit in a comparable 23lsv. Even on the trailer you can tell the difference in quality.  Is there anythinv wrong with it, nothing specific, but it just doesnt perform as well as the 23 lsv will for surfing, or skiing.

We were out this summer, met some nice folks that had a moomba, it was an 09 if i recall correctly, but they were amazed how well our vtx surfed (suck gate, not surf gate), a vtx doesnt compare to a 23 lsv, but i would pick a vtx over a mobius everyday. That 23 slurpee linked looks great.

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Pbliton29

Thanks guys!

Would only the back need to be replaced?  Or the vinyl on the whole boat?  The boat is listed for 45k on marketplace- it seems enticing knowing its listed for 10-15k less than other similar boats with similar hours.  Would the price make up the difference for replacing some vinyl?

How many hours would you expect out of a Malibu LSV?

 

Thanks!

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