Monsoon 450 Horsepower

[snowmanwithahat]

I don't know why, but this has been incredibly elusive and misinformed. I bought a 2019 23 LSV with the 450 Monsoon 6.0L. Dealer claimed 450 horsepower, then one dude claimed 450 displacement. I've come to realize the 450 means nothing except a general guide to the model showing it's comparable to a Raptor 440, slightly more powerful than a Monsoon 410 and that the number is basically meaningless.

I couldn't believe it, but in the end the answer was right on my purchase agreement. The engine is listed as:

Engine: Monsoon 450 6.0L HO CAT, 374 HP

So there you have it, a $6,667 upgrade for only a 374 HP motor. If I had ordered this boat and got to pick my options, I definitely wouldn't have spent that extra money on such a small upgrade.

For reference, other engine horsepower ratings on other purchase agreements I was sent while shopping include...

24MXZ

Engine: Monsoon 6.2L 450 HO, 398 HP

A24

Engine: Monsoon 410 6.0L CAT, 363 HP

So if any of you know, why the hell are there different displacement Monsoon 450s? Malibu is doing a crap job differentiating their engine lineup and informing customers of the differences of the upgraded engines.

 

[UWSkier]

Think the 450 moniker on the 6.2 is a misprint, isn't it?  That motor is marketed as the M6DI and is the Malibu in-house engine.  The 410 and 450 are the PCM motors.

[Fffrank]

I always thought the numbers on the modern version of engines were indicative of torque and not HP.  

There's a quite lengthy thread about this (and I'm sure this one is also about to get dogpiled on.)

https://www.themalibucrew.com/index.php?/forums/topic/59426-2016-indmar-raptormonsoon-engine-hp-torque-ratings-with-answer-from-malibu-factory-rep /

[formerathlete]

I was also surprised when I found out the Axis Monsoon 409 (PCM Crusader) was 363 hp and 341 ft lbs. The 409 is basically just a random number, like you mentioned, even though Axis and everywhere else listed it as 409 ft lbs. Crazy they can get away with that. 

Did you upgrade from the M5Di to the Monsoon 450 on your 2019? And if so, did you only do so because of the misleading HP info? To get the most accurate numbers, you have to look at the CARB ratings for these motors as the manufacturers don't always seem to be truthful (for other reasons that the more knowledgeable TMC members are maybe aware of). Here's a great link to gain true information on all the marine engine ratings (select Pleasurecraft Marine Engine Group if you got the PCM 450--that engine is the one listed with max power of 279 kW). Once you select the engine you are looking for, you can see the power numbers as well as peak torque RPM.

https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/cert.php?eng_id=SIME&year=2019

[snowmanwithahat]

On 12/10/2019 at 1:59 PM, UWSkier said:

Think the 450 moniker on the 6.2 is a misprint, isn't it?  That motor is marketed as the M6DI and is the Malibu in-house engine.  The 410 and 450 are the PCM motors.

I'm not sure if it's a misprint or not. Did the 2019 MXZ 24s have a M6DI?

[ahopkins22LSV]

24 minutes ago, snowmanwithahat said:

I'm not sure if it's a misprint or not. Did the 2019 MXZ 24s have a M6DI?

I believe it became available later in the model year. Malibu slow rolled their engines out. 

[ORMailbuboater]

Malibu has used the Monsoon term more for marketing than actual output numbers in the past. 

As FrankFf mentioned switched over to torque rating not HP on the Raptor engines.

Note that Malibu seems to have dropped that for the new MDi Monsoon engines  MD5i Monsoon,  MD6i Monsoon  LT4 Monsoon.  No correlation to HP or Torque.  

Based on the CAFE rating (if I converted it correctly)     Only one that matches CA numbers is the new LT4.   Internal measurements look to be more generous.  Maybe Cali did not use 93 octane for the MD5i or MD6i tests?   

2020    CA ARB rating                       Malibu advertised

MD5i    344 HP  373 TQ                     (5.3L)       360 HP 400 TQ

MD6i     386 HP 446 TQ                     (6.2L)       430 HP  460 TQ

LT4        607 HP  606 TQ                    (6.2L SC)  607 HP 606 TQ  

Edited December 12, 2019 by ORMailbuboater

[csleaver]

The engine model numbers seem to be just that, a model number.  I would agree that CARB testing is likely the most accurate way to determine horsepower and torque numbers, but the marine gear ratio, weight and other factors can greatly influence the actual performance you will experience in any boat.

[gregtay]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:12 AM, snowmanwithahat said:

I don't know why, but this has been incredibly elusive and misinformed. I bought a 2019 23 LSV with the 450 Monsoon 6.0L. Dealer claimed 450 horsepower, then one dude claimed 450 displacement. I've come to realize the 450 means nothing except a general guide to the model showing it's comparable to a Raptor 440, slightly more powerful than a Monsoon 410 and that the number is basically meaningless.

I couldn't believe it, but in the end the answer was right on my purchase agreement. The engine is listed as:

Engine: Monsoon 450 6.0L HO CAT, 374 HP

So there you have it, a $6,667 upgrade for only a 374 HP motor. If I had ordered this boat and got to pick my options, I definitely wouldn't have spent that extra money on such a small upgrade.

For reference, other engine horsepower ratings on other purchase agreements I was sent while shopping include...

24MXZ

Engine: Monsoon 6.2L 450 HO, 398 HP

A24

Engine: Monsoon 410 6.0L CAT, 363 HP

So if any of you know, why the hell are there different displacement Monsoon 450s? Malibu is doing a crap job differentiating their engine lineup and informing customers of the differences of the upgraded engines.

 

I believe this was the full list of engine options in 2019. As other have mentioned the M5 and M6 motors were not available till January.  I think the 450 HO motor is a pretty nice power/torque upgrade from the standard 410 setup.  11 HP difference seems a little low. Was the difference all in TQ?  If nothing else you should feel good that you have more than the base power and it will be good for resale someday.

 

 

[IXFE]

I never pay any attention to the model numbers nor have I ever taken those numbers to mean anything. 

The key is to understand what engine you’re getting. That is how you get a sense for how it performs relative to others. 

When I bought my first engine upgrade it was a “409” but I knew it was the GM 6.0L L96 gasser found in the GM 2500 trucks. When I got the “450” on my next boat I knew it was the 6.2L aluminum LS3 found in the C6 corvette. When I got my first ford motor dubbed the  “409” in 2016 I knew it was the iron 6.2L found in the gasser Super Duties. The M6 is the new 6.2L DI Escalade motor. And so on....

Having a sense for how those motors perform on the road gives you a sense for how they will perform on the water. Who cares what some lab in California says?  

EDIT: Car companies play fast and loose with model numbers too. My first car was a 65 Mustang with a 289 motor... it did NOT have 289 horsepower. Today I drive a GT350. It does NOT have 350 horsepower. How Carol Shelby came up with that model name is a funny story, actually. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by IXFE

[shawndoggy]

it shoulda had 289 cubic inches tho.

[greybeaver]

wasn't the GT 350, 350 steps to the track?  if not the track some other building.

The GT350 started out with a 289, but latter years it was a 302. if my memory is correct.

[IXFE]

7 hours ago, greybeaver said:

wasn't the GT 350, 350 steps to the track?  if not the track some other building.

The GT350 started out with a 289, but latter years it was a 302. if my memory is correct.

Bingo. 

8 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

it shoulda had 289 cubic inches tho.

Sure but it wasn’t horsepower. With a 289 badge on the fender everybody in my high school “assumed” it was horsepower just like the OP. And the GT350 doesn’t mean horsepower, torque, or displacement.

the point is don’t make assumptions using model numbers that came from a marketing dept. Dig a little deeper and know what you’re really buying. 

Same thing goes for folks who “upgraded” to the M5 last year. It’s an upgrade so it much be better right? No, you just paid $1500 for a smaller motor. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by IXFE

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

Bingo. 

Sure but it wasn’t horsepower. With a 289 badge on the fender everybody in my high school “assumed” it was horsepower just like the OP. And the GT350 doesn’t mean horsepower, torque, or displacement.

Why would people at your high school assume that?  Did they also think that the fox body 5.0s only had five horsepower?

referring to an engine by its displacement was (and still is) quite commonplace. 305, 327, 350, 289, 302, 351W, 351C... all displacement related numbers.

the fact that Malibu “badge engineers” its engines in a tiny corner of the boating world really doesn’t change that. 
 

now I guess I’ve never considered that a *car’s name* might be indicative of its horsepower. Gotta go see if I can find a used SAAB 9000...

[greybeaver]

Same with boat salesmen as with car salesman...."Trust but verify!!"

[IXFE]

8 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Why would people at your high school assume that?  Did they also think that the fox body 5.0s only had five horsepower?

referring to an engine by its displacement was (and still is) quite commonplace. 305, 327, 350, 289, 302, 351W, 351C... all displacement related numbers.

the fact that Malibu “badge engineers” its engines in a tiny corner of the boating world really doesn’t change that. 
 

now I guess I’ve never considered that a *car’s name* might be indicative of its horsepower. Gotta go see if I can find a used SAAB 9000...

You’re taking a few examples too literally and missing the entire point...

Also, I’m not defending the practice. I’m just saying consumers should do a little research and know what they’re buying. 

EDIT: BMW model numbers used to denote the engine’s displacement. A 320i had a 2.0L motor. Today a 340i has a 3.0L twin turbo. Same for Mercedes. The AMG E63 used to denote a 6.3L naturally aspirated V8. Today the same model denotes a 4.4L twin turbo V8. Even more confusing the C63 and the E63 have the same 4.4L twin turbo but way different horsepower specs. Point is that consumers can’t be lazy anymore. Gotta know your ish. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by IXFE

[shawndoggy]

1 minute ago, IXFE said:

You’re taking a few examples too literally and missing the entire point...

LOL I am just trying to understand this “number on the car means horsepower” thing. Maybe you can give an example of any car from when we were kids that published its HP numbers on the car?

I think the kids at your HS just weren’t knowledgeable in the least!

and yes due diligence when buying a motor is always a good thing. Anybody who thinks “monsoon” is a thing is a big dummy. 
 

and we all know that a 944 turbo is better than a GT500, because, you know, it’s got 451 more. 

[Sparky450]

2 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

I think the kids at your HS just weren’t knowledgeable in the least!

😂😂😂. At least they learned to do research!! 😂😂😂

We all know if it’s louder it’s faster. 

[IXFE]

3 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

LOL I am just trying to understand this “number on the car means horsepower” thing. Maybe you can give an example of any car from when we were kids that published its HP numbers on the car?

I think the kids at your HS just weren’t knowledgeable in the least!

and yes due diligence when buying a motor is always a good thing. Anybody who thinks “monsoon” is a thing is a big dummy. 
 

and we all know that a 944 turbo is better than a GT500, because, you know, it’s got 451 more. 

So now we’re debating the intelligence of high school kids?  Okay, here’s another gem... 

I recall one kid at my school who had a Chevy Blazer (the small S10 based one from the 80’s). His speedometer topped out at 180 mph. I vividly remember him claiming that meant his ride had a top speed of 180 mph. There was no convincing him otherwise. In his mind this was a fact!  

My point about model numbers isn’t that they mean horsepower. I was simply pointing out that on certain models many people assume they do. Why would Shelby make a GT350 and a GT500?  What does that mean?  He must be referring to horsepower? Right??? 

What about Supra... they make two identical boats but one is called an SE450 and the other is called an SE550.  What does that mean???

Do your homework, people. 

[justgary]

12 minutes ago, IXFE said:

What about Supra... they make two identical boats but one is called an SE450 and the other is called an SE550.  What does that mean???

You guys are cracking me up, but I'll join in on this because it will keep me from going to work for another few minutes.

Clearly the two boats can't be *identical* or they wouldn't have different model numbers.  You can tell from the numbers that one has a base invoice price of 450 and the other is 550 (in hundreds of dollars).

[greybeaver]

35 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

LOL I am just trying to understand this “number on the car means horsepower” thing. Maybe you can give an example of any car from when we were kids that published its HP numbers on the car?

I think the kids at your HS just weren’t knowledgeable in the least!

and yes due diligence when buying a motor is always a good thing. Anybody who thinks “monsoon” is a thing is a big dummy. 
 

and we all know that a 944 turbo is better than a GT500, because, you know, it’s got 451 more. 

The confusion may lie in the difference between metric and SAE??

[justgary]

3 minutes ago, greybeaver said:

The confusion may lie in the difference between metric and SAE??

Well, sure, and it's really that simple.  A 944 turbo is 33 more than a 911, and there are 3.2808 (rounded to 3.3) feet per meter, so the only difference is that the 911 is metric and the 944 was converted to SAE because of US interest. 

[greybeaver]

14 minutes ago, justgary said:

Well, sure, and it's really that simple.  A 944 turbo is 33 more than a 911, and there are 3.2808 (rounded to 3.3) feet per meter, so the only difference is that the 911 is metric and the 944 was converted to SAE because of US interest. 

33 more what? 

 

SO the 911 is 911 meters, while the 944 is 944 feet?

[gregtay]

1 hour ago, shawndoggy said:

Why would people at your high school assume that?  Did they also think that the fox body 5.0s only had five horsepower?

referring to an engine by its displacement was (and still is) quite commonplace. 305, 327, 350, 289, 302, 351W, 351C... all displacement related numbers.

the fact that Malibu “badge engineers” its engines in a tiny corner of the boating world really doesn’t change that. 
 

now I guess I’ve never considered that a *car’s name* might be indicative of its horsepower. Gotta go see if I can find a used SAAB 9000...

I don't think I have ever seen a vehicle advertise HP with a badge on the fender or back (can anyone think of one?)  It is always been displacement when they use a number to indicate what motor.  My Durango happily wears a 392 badge on the front fender... simply CID.  HP and TQ would be a much higher number, I am sure marketing wishes it was the bigger number.  I also can't think of a car name that used HP.  A few car brands used displacement in the model name for many many years BMW, Mercedes,... and even Infiniti when they seemed to know what they were doing (and Nissan Z cars.. 240z, 280z, 300z (yes.. the TT was 300HP.. but 300 was referring to a 3.0l motor))  The age of forced induction changed all that as the German's didn't like the idea of lowering the numbers on the new cars since they went to smaller engines with a blower.  So these days the numbers that are part of car models are pretty much random with the general rule of the higher the number the more power/bigger the motor (but often just a software tune.)   Anyway.  I will agree the numbers used by Indimar, Malibu, etc are a bit confusing.  In the past I believe it was a pretty good assumption the number was referring to something meaningful but these days it seems like a number marketing chooses to make sure the the motors look competitive against competing brands.  M5 and M6 were clearly used to match the Natique engine labeling for the motors with the same block.

[gregtay]

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

What about Supra... they make two identical boats but one is called an SE450 and the other is called an SE550.  What does that mean???

I always thought it was a little strange that Supra did this on a boat (clearly someone in the marketing department was dead set on following the automotive world I guess.)  Get the bigger motor and you get a different model boat but everything else is the same (yes of course the number is meaningless... simply bigger is better sort of thing.) But I would think the cost to manage multiple model numbers for the same boat wouldn't be worth it (from a marketing/paperwork/certification perspective.)