Tesla Cybertruck

[LateNightSalami]

Yeah, I believe lithium is still used in solid state batteries but used as a solid anode rather than as an electrolytic liquid or polymer gel like it is in standard Li-ion batteries.

[85 Barefoot]

7 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

Please technically explain 2 to 4 times higher please ?  more production and refining , cheaper gas ,  you aren’t talking about oil well depreciation are you( forget the real word) ?,  all businesses get accelerated depreciation in the tax code 

what,  you haven’t enjoyed the cheaper gas this season ??? In your boat .  Electric wakeboats would only be good on a lift and used for sets and return to dock/lift.  Gas would only go up if we tried to make that move

and I don’t want ethanol mandated in my gas cause it causes a higher price to add it and the ethanol is subsidized because of a mandate ,  it’s crop subsidies for farmers I don’t agree with snd it will ruin small gas engines if we go to 15, 10 is already a problem 

oil built this country and if you lessen the demand the oil companies will spot refine and the price goes through the roof and I grew up boating on .$50 cent a gallon premium gas and the only thing that ruined that for two decades was regulation against the oil industry ,  where is the regulation against electric ( that’s generated mostly with fossil fuels )

AND nothing is as efficient (what it can accomplish and how fast) than even an $8 gallon of gas 

I want gas to remain cheap and moves to electric will only increase the price 
 

and no one has yet reasoned that these things would be good on a long trip that I started this discussion with and again the cost of commercial real estate to accommodate large and multiple vehicles  and sitting there instead of 10 minutes in and out including store visit 

and the long haul truckers using these would clog up your stations on your trips because of their load factors burning up the charge

you really  think these charges are going to remain cheap if we move to electric ?

have you seen the strip mining holes for lithium vs the grass growing around an established fracking site

GD, can you summarize your point in a sentence or 2?  Is it, "electric cars will make my boat gas more expensive"?  Because, for all you list, I fail to see a coherent position other than that you seem to prefer gasoline? 

I have yet to understand the argument from anyone that gasoline is a preferable fuel source, emissions even excluded.  The ONLY argument against widespread adaptation is range, and that is quickly being increased.  The supercharger network already makes availability a non-issue.

[braindamage]

I bought a model 3 and while tracking the range is different, I haven’t found it to be a pain.

for an electric truck, I’m on the waiting list for a bollinger, though at $125k and range of only 200miles, I’m thinking twice!!

https://bollingermotors.com/

Edited November 26, 2019 by braindamage

[Eagleboy99]

1 hour ago, 85 Barefoot said:

The ONLY argument against widespread adaptation is range

And towing.  And use in cold climates. And the need for gov't subsidies. And the high cost of repairs. And...

[Nitrousbird]

1 hour ago, Eagleboy99 said:

And towing.  And use in cold climates. And the need for gov't subsidies. And the high cost of repairs. And...

Electric is superior in terms of towing.  It goes back to range as @85 Barefoot clearly stated.  It gets quite cold here and I see all sorts of Teslas on my daily commute.  Again, it may hurt range.  Gov't subsidies have been gradually going down and will continue to.  As production of EV's ramps up, they will go away.

As for high cost of repairs, that's just plain wrong.  It is one of the selling points of EV's is their reduced repair and maintenance costs.  Yes, a battery replacement is expensive, but batteries have proven to be quite durable, especially the newer stuff and seems to be a relative non-factor.  Drive units can also be pricey...so is a DCT or 8+ speed automatic transmission.    

[Eagleboy99]

27 minutes ago, Nitrousbird said:

As for high cost of repairs, that's just plain wrong. 

I spoke with a friend yesterday who caught a rock in the windshield of their Model X.  Wanna guess the repair cost?  $3500 CAD!  A decent windshield runs 200-300 CAD installed.  Apparently you have to align cameras  and stuff so it is  a dealer or certified place that has to do the install.  Even BMW's HUD screens don't cost anywhere near that much.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Eagleboy99
Correction

[Eagleboy99]

28 minutes ago, Nitrousbird said:

it may hurt range. 

I'll say - up to 40% or more.  

[Nitrousbird]

13 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I spoke with a friend yesterday who caught a rock in the windshield of their Model X.  Wanna guess the repair cost?  $3500 CAD!  A decent windshield runs 200-300 CAD installed.  Apparently you have to align cameras  and stuff so it is  a dealer or certified place that has to do the install.  Even BMW's HUD screens don't cost anywhere near that much.

So one specific electric vehicle, with a windshield design unlike ANY OTHER VEHICLE - including other EV's - makes EV's more expensive to repair.  Got it.

[85 Barefoot]

16 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

And towing.  And use in cold climates. And the need for gov't subsidies. And the high cost of repairs. And...

there's virtually no gov't subsidies available anymore for teslas.  

 

High cost of repairs?   8 year warranty suggests what?  there's nothing going to break.  virtually no maintenance.  Talk to some more people with Teslas and ask about operating and maintenance costs.  I've found they all rave.  

[LateNightSalami]

16 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

And towing.  And use in cold climates. And the need for gov't subsidies. And the high cost of repairs. And...

For towing:

Electric is better for peak torque, better for instantaneous torque, and has a much much wider power band. Electric motors are/can be built much better for the stats that people traditionally think of for towing: namely low end torque. 

For use in cold climates:

I want to propose a thought experiment here. Lets take all of the energy in a 10 gallon tank of gas and put it through a standard gas motor. You will get about 300 miles of range out of that motor (depending) in the summer. You will get a bit less in the winter, can't say for certain but lets say 280 miles for kicks (though this might actually be a bit generous). Not much change.

Now lets take all of that energy and put it through an electric motor. On my volt that will net you about 1,200 miles in the summer (yes I typed that correctly). In the winter that will net you about 750 miles (being a rather mean to the electric car here).

What we see here is a higher variance with the electric car but overall even in the worst case scenario it is over twice as efficient energy wise as the gas engine. The variance in the winter is due to the batteries being less efficient in cold weather, needing climate controls for the cabin, and needing to generate heat for the battery to be in reasonable operating temps. In winter the battery needs to be in "heat itself mode". Why don't we see this variance with the gas engine? Well in this case the answer is that it is always in "heat itself mode". Gas engines lose a crazy amounts of energy due to heat loss. In the summer that heat does nothing. In the winter that heat is usable for the engine and the cabin but it still ends up being on net way less efficient.

So you are right that range is a problem. But the problem is due to the energy density of the batteries. (And the gas engines being inefficient in a way that is recoverable in the winter.)

Governemnt subsidies:

I mean, this is a newer industry and I suspect that oil had a lot of help by many governments getting its own economic infrastructure up and running. Not exactly fair to compare a mature industry to a new and growing one (this isn't even considering the current fossil fuel subsidies).

Reparis:

14 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I spoke with a friend yesterday who caught a rock in the windshield of their Model X.  Wanna guess the repair cost?  $3500 CAD!  A decent windshield runs 200-300 CAD installed.  Apparently you have to align cameras  and stuff so it is  a dealer or certified place that has to do the install.  Even BMW's HUD screens don't cost anywhere near that much.

This repair sounds like it has nothing to do with the vehicle being electric and everything to do with the product platform of the Tesla. If you would like a personal anecdote of mine for the Chevy Volt: It has been in the shop about 5 times since I bought it in 2016:

-Rear ended

-Pot hole destroyed two tires on the driver side

-Exhaust heat exchanger was malfunctioning

-Seal on the oil pan was leaking

-Recall to move and re-secure a power cable (about a 10 minute job)

So it has undergone repairs either for accidents or problems with the gas engine. Note this hasn't even included oil changes. In that time I have put about 73k miles on it. Roughly 60% of that all electric miles. So, the electric portion of my car currently has 44k miles on it with a cumulative of 10 mins of total service...no regular maintenance like oil changes...no break downs...10 mins of a recall. For full disclosure, it does have some self servicing cost in the form of keeping itself warmer or cooler during extreme weather conditions. I see this in some increases in the electric bill in the dead of summer and winter. But the electric portion of the car is much more reliable, efficient, and cheaper overall to service than the gas engine (doesn't even seem close upon this reflection honestly).

This is why the industry as a whole is pushing to go electric. It promises a TON of improvements to vehicles across the board. The main drawback is the energy density of its fuel. Which is admittedly a huge drawback in its current form.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by LateNightSalami

[granddaddy55]

19 hours ago, LateNightSalami said:

How are you defining efficiency here? The only thing that gas has going for it is the completely insane energy density that it provides. In terms of raw energy efficiency gas motors don't even come close to electric motors. Going by average MPGe alone electric motors get 2.5-4 times the work per kWh put in compared to a gas motor. Electric motors have more instantaneous and better peak torque and a much much much wider peak power band. The only thing holding back electric motors right now is the energy density of their fuel system. Batteries currently just can't store as much energy as a gallon of gas can which enable you to do more in 1 unit (1 tank of gas vs 1 battery charge) at a time but there are ways to mitigate this.

Right now gas is very cheap because it is an economy of scale. How do you know electric charging stations would not also benefit greatly from becoming an economy of scale? It works for gas, why wouldn't a scale economy work for electric? What about ideas that could become practical like hot swappable batteries that greatly reduce your on station time for renewing your electric car? It seems weird to claim gas works on scale so we shouldn't scale it back but then also say that electric can't work on scale.

I’m saying that if electric comes up to scale, we will still need gas and it will go through the roof 

we will regret that and as referenced above foreign companies (just like before Trump with oil) will control our destiny

with oil independence we control our destiny ,  do you remember the mid to late  70’s and the Obama era for oil pricing

be careful what you wish for ,  and if it was so good why haven’t large commercial charging stations already developed along the highways??

agsin so you get your electric truck ,  how do we go surfing , riding, skating, foiling and cruising all day in an electric boat, you can’t and if we still need gas to run our boats you won’t be able to afford it

not many of us will have a lift setup to operate from and even then it will be sets only and return to dock for charge vs 15 minute at the fuel dock and go agsin

[ahopkins22LSV]

Please leave specific politicians and or parties out of this discussion.

[Pra4sno]

37 minutes ago, granddaddy55 said:

I’m saying that if electric comes up to scale, we will still need gas and it will go through the roof 

we will regret that and as referenced above foreign companies (just like before Trump with oil) will control our destiny

with oil independence we control our destiny ,  do you remember the mid to late  70’s and the Obama era for oil pricing

be careful what you wish for ,  and if it was so good why haven’t large commercial charging stations already developed along the highways??

agsin so you get your electric truck ,  how do we go surfing , riding, skating, foiling and cruising all day in an electric boat, you can’t and if we still need gas to run our boats you won’t be able to afford it

not many of us will have a lift setup to operate from and even then it will be sets only and return to dock for charge vs 15 minute at the fuel dock and go agsin

Most electric vehicle owning households have both gas and the electric, and statistically electric owners aren't giving up having an ICE vehicle in their household. Electric owners also own and prefer ICE vehicles for certain tasks.  They are one and the same.  

What we're talking about is reducing demand while supply remains fixed due to industry minimum production levels for profitable sales.  There is an economy of scale in oil and NG that is by and large fixed, and would kick in more exporting should we drop below U.S. demand meeting that level.  This statistically means cheaper gas and history backs that assertion.  

I live and work in Larimer county.  We, and our neighboring county are the highest oil and gas producing counties in all of Colorado and therefore on of the highest producers in the Country.  We have an enormous supply, from over 26,000 wells and feel strongly about our oil and gas industry.  It has been decades and multiple changes of the guard in Washington and NG and Oil production has continued to grow across the U.S. for over 40 years.  

Late 70's was OPEC crisis, caused by oil dependence and instability in the oil markets abroad and knee jerk reaction to Iran driving prices up.  Despite the hysteria, production and supply was available.  U.S. national average gas price annually during the OPEC crisis was just over $3 even when adjusted for today's dollar.  The stats I provided I also confirmed on Energy.gov.  

Electric's would seem to accomplish exactly what you are looking for.  True oil independence using our own reserves and production capacity, alternative transportation in an actual oil crisis, more power/speed/torque, less maintenance, more U.S. manufacturing and industry, and cheaper gas for our ICE vehicles.   

For boating...no one is buying an electric boat right now for recreating - no one is even producing one.  Nautique built one as a prototype but have already said it would be several hundred grand and have no intent to produce one.  During a full day of boating I run up 2 hours of tow time and that's with a FULL crew.  The rest is idling.  EV's have 300+ mi of range which equals 5 hours at 60mph with perfect conditions.  EV's don't need to idle, have instant power, low end torque is their specialty and the negative is they are heavy.  It sounds like the perfect wake boat once they get that pesky...lithium exploding when touched by water part sorted out.  

Also, who is buying a 60-130k boat having trouble buying gas at $3 or even $6 a gallon for their boat for the 25-50 hours of use a year?  Most of us spend that on premium or non-ethanol already.  

Large commercial charging stations...no one is commercially producing an electric Semi yet.  

Or do you mean for electric vehicles such as Teslas?  Because if so there are over 28,000 charging stations in the U.S. and Canada that are commercial stations.  EV does not require "Large" stations; however in areas with high demand they can be scaled on a modular level.  

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC

I'm always open to discussion and think it's interesting how many passionate people we have here on both sides of this isle.  But what is confusing to me is why there are sides to this isle?  

[dlb]

37 minutes ago, Pra4sno said:

Most electric vehicle owning households have both gas and the electric, and statistically electric owners aren't giving up having an ICE vehicle in their household. Electric owners also own and prefer ICE vehicles for certain tasks.  They are one and the same.  

What we're talking about is reducing demand while supply remains fixed due to industry minimum production levels for profitable sales.  There is an economy of scale in oil and NG that is by and large fixed, and would kick in more exporting should we drop below U.S. demand meeting that level.  This statistically means cheaper gas and history backs that assertion.  

I live and work in Larimer county.  We, and our neighboring county are the highest oil and gas producing counties in all of Colorado and therefore on of the highest producers in the Country.  We have an enormous supply, from over 26,000 wells and feel strongly about our oil and gas industry.  It has been decades and multiple changes of the guard in Washington and NG and Oil production has continued to grow across the U.S. for over 40 years.  

Late 70's was OPEC crisis, caused by oil dependence and instability in the oil markets abroad and knee jerk reaction to Iran driving prices up.  Despite the hysteria, production and supply was available.  U.S. national average gas price annually during the OPEC crisis was just over $3 even when adjusted for today's dollar.  The stats I provided I also confirmed on Energy.gov.  

Electric's would seem to accomplish exactly what you are looking for.  True oil independence using our own reserves and production capacity, alternative transportation in an actual oil crisis, more power/speed/torque, less maintenance, more U.S. manufacturing and industry, and cheaper gas for our ICE vehicles.   

For boating...no one is buying an electric boat right now for recreating - no one is even producing one.  Nautique built one as a prototype but have already said it would be several hundred grand and have no intent to produce one.  During a full day of boating I run up 2 hours of tow time and that's with a FULL crew.  The rest is idling.  EV's have 300+ mi of range which equals 5 hours at 60mph with perfect conditions.  EV's don't need to idle, have instant power, low end torque is their specialty and the negative is they are heavy.  It sounds like the perfect wake boat once they get that pesky...lithium exploding when touched by water part sorted out.  

Also, who is buying a 60-130k boat having trouble buying gas at $3 or even $6 a gallon for their boat for the 25-50 hours of use a year?  Most of us spend that on premium or non-ethanol already.  

Large commercial charging stations...no one is commercially producing an electric Semi yet.  

Or do you mean for electric vehicles such as Teslas?  Because if so there are over 28,000 charging stations in the U.S. and Canada that are commercial stations.  EV does not require "Large" stations; however in areas with high demand they can be scaled on a modular level.  

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=ELEC

I'm always open to discussion and think it's interesting how many passionate people we have here on both sides of this isle.  But what is confusing to me is why there are sides to this isle?  

This is spot on.   I live in an area that has many lakes close by and would like a tow vehicle that is electric.  If we go to the lakes in the western part of NC there are charging stations on the way.  Just waiting for the truck/SUV competitive action to start delivering products.  We will still have an ICE vehicle for other activities.

[Pra4sno]

21 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Don't confuse production with reserves.  It is true, Australia currently produces the most lithium, but its reserves pale in comaprison to South America's "Lithium Triangle" (Chile, Argentina and Bolivia - well over half the worlds reserves). Argentina and Bolivia are not in that great of shape right.  China  produces other critical metals and has them in spades.  And while it is true Tesla makes batteries in the US, USA has just over 1% of the world's lithium production  and a fraction of that lef tin reserves.  So Tesla is at the mercy of foreign  oligolopies in unstable countries.

Who's confusing production with reserves?  You:  "And guess where most of the world's lithium comes from?  Yup - China."  

Now you are onto invading South American Democracies with which we hold massive long standing trade surpluses?  

U.S. produces 2% of lithium production and 13% of worldwide known reserves.  

[Eagleboy99]

1 minute ago, Pra4sno said:

U.S. produces 2% of lithium production and 13% of worldwide known reserves.  

Not according to Bloomberg.  Maybe you are counting water?

[dlb]

3 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Not according to Bloomberg.  Maybe you are counting water?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Reserves  

Chile should be our friend....

[dalt1]

On 11/24/2019 at 9:01 PM, ahopkinsVTX said:

What does it cost to fill up - I mean, recharge,  if you are on empty, or low, or whatever it’s called lol. 

 

On 11/24/2019 at 9:10 PM, Wavemaker said:

States do it differently. Most charge by the kilowatt which is generally around 20 cents.  So it comes to about .06 per mile which is just a bit better than what you'd get a gas station getting 30mpg. (todays gas prices) It's half that when I charge at home so I get equivalent to about 70mpg in a car that goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds!! 

I only charge at home and it costs about $25 for 800 miles a month on the average. That's no hypermileing!

[COOP]

19 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I spoke with a friend yesterday who caught a rock in the windshield of their Model X.  Wanna guess the repair cost?  $3500 CAD!  A decent windshield runs 200-300 CAD installed.  Apparently you have to align cameras  and stuff so it is  a dealer or certified place that has to do the install.  Even BMW's HUD screens don't cost anywhere near that much.

Yeah do google search on Tesla repair costs, its not pretty. And the wait for the parts is even worse. Not only that, but insurance companies total them out pretty quick as the cost for parts is so high. Check out Rich Rebuilds youtube channel, he has multiple videos talking about this.

Edited November 27, 2019 by COOP

[oldjeep]

19 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I spoke with a friend yesterday who caught a rock in the windshield of their Model X.  Wanna guess the repair cost?  $3500 CAD!  A decent windshield runs 200-300 CAD installed.  Apparently you have to align cameras  and stuff so it is  a dealer or certified place that has to do the install.  Even BMW's HUD screens don't cost anywhere near that much.

Not real surprising considering the "windshield" on a model X is also half the roof.  Isn't exactly a small piece of glass.  It cost me (my insurance company) around $2000 to replace the power rear slider in my last pickup after I broke it.

[85 Barefoot]

5 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

I’m saying that if electric comes up to scale, we will still need gas and it will go through the roof 

we will regret that and as referenced above foreign companies (just like before Trump with oil) will control our destiny

with oil independence we control our destiny ,  do you remember the mid to late  70’s and the Obama era for oil pricing

be careful what you wish for ,  and if it was so good why haven’t large commercial charging stations already developed along the highways??

agsin so you get your electric truck ,  how do we go surfing , riding, skating, foiling and cruising all day in an electric boat, you can’t and if we still need gas to run our boats you won’t be able to afford it

not many of us will have a lift setup to operate from and even then it will be sets only and return to dock for charge vs 15 minute at the fuel dock and go agsin

1) So basically gas production and pricing will violate every rule of supply and demand?  

2) How is it lost on you that America is LEADING the way on transitioning to electric vehicles?  Tesla is an American company, and Elon is a naturalized citizen that loves America, and has committed to production here. 

3) oil independence is a fallacy.  Drillers sell on an open market.  It's not earmarked for america.  Market conditions decide where it goes.  We can't drill our way into energy independence, demand has a huge impact on that.

4) Are you blind?  They're everywhere!

5) upon what do you base this wildly speculative assertion?

6) won't be needed.  

Edited November 27, 2019 by 85 Barefoot

[85 Barefoot]

16 minutes ago, COOP said:

Yeah do google search on Tesla repair costs, its not pretty. And the wait for the parts is even worse.

My personal experience with actual drivers and not google says this is absolutely incorrect.  Not to mention manufacturer recommended maintenance is less than 30 % of what it costs to maintain that ever-expensive....accord.  

 

[Eagleboy99]

35 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

How is it lost on you that America is LEADING the way on transitioning to electric vehicles? 

Nope.  Norway.

[COOP]

31 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

My personal experience with actual drivers and not google says this is absolutely incorrect.  Not to mention manufacturer recommended maintenance is less than 30 % of what it costs to maintain that ever-expensive....accord.  

 

https://tesletter.com/hit-pole-tesla-model-s-cost-fix-it/

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/20/heres-what-7000-of-damage-looks-like-on-a-tesla-model-3/

https://enrg.io/this-is-what-30000-of-damage-looks-like-on-a-tesla-model-s/

https://www.tflcar.com/2019/06/tesla-model-3-repair-story/

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/insane-cost-repair-teslas-achilles-heel

[Cole2001]

The US is a large contributor due to having Tesla controlling the market and being the one to beat. We will definitely see other countries switching over first. 
 European countries are definitely more focused to making the switch to 100% electric. In Europe Honda will only be selling electric and hybrids by 2022, Mercedes wants all cars to be available electric by 2022,  as well as Norway wants to completely switch over.