Tesla Cybertruck

[granddaddy55]

Just now, Fffrank said:

I think the opposite.  Gas stations are already taking a loss when they sell gasoline.  They make this money up with coffee and soft-drinks, snacks, car washes, etc --- all of which have high margins.  Now your average customer is going to be there for 1-3 hours vs. 5-10 minutes?  Imagine the value that they can capture from having all those cars parked outside?

In the real commercial real estate mode you won’t be able to afford the square footage ( for normal sized vehicles especially with a trailer plus the small ones ) and I guess when it’s full you know have to hope everyone and I mean everyone buys a lot of sodas 

you would almost have to mandate electric vehicles to make your scenario work in multiple spots through out a city snd up snd down the hwy like gas stations and even converting the existing stations , many are not big enough for shoppers and/or charging customers

if it was mandated do you really think those charges would remain cheap, I doubt it

[RTS]

1 hour ago, hunter77ah said:

Anyone else excited for the possibility that the Cybertruck can park itself at the boat launch?  Or potentially pick you up at the ramp?

Does not do a thing for me.  My new car can put itself into a parking space.  I tried it one time.  Steering wheel started spinning, vehicle moving without my feet on the gas or brake, and about halfway into the process I bailed out.  I was as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.  I'm sure it would have parked itself just fine, but I'll park the thing myself from here on out.  Maybe I'm just too old for this type of thing.

[granddaddy55]

Also , make this move to electric in large measure mandated in any way,  fuel prices will skyrocket as refiners will spot refine to the ordered demand and the price will be higher than even Europe’s .  They suffer  from this now from just their smaller cars

Also Fact: CAFE standards lead to more lives lost per accident 

this whole thing is intended for the short commute or home city errand running and their trying to convince you it’s all commercially viable for all forms of usage beyond that , they are not 

might work for big semis because if truck stop size but under any real load and weight of big batteries necessary for big  load over time thru will never have long haul range to get a long run day accomplished for a driver within his 14-18 allowable hours

and again diesel for  the long hails will skyrocket because of spot refining increasing the cost of most goods 

[hunter77ah]

51 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

That is what the wife is for, no?  LOL

Love the wife, but have higher confidence in AI...

[Falko]

I'm on the fence right now. I think I should get on the list, just in case.  I love driving the Tundra, but as an everyday vehicle, it is getting costly for fuel.

[Eagleboy99]

1 hour ago, Fffrank said:

Gas stations are already taking a loss when they sell gasoline. 

This is 100% accurate.  One of my former clients, one of the largest refiners in the US  hated the pay-at-the-pump idea since if they could get the customer into the store, that is where they made their money.  And they actually made more money on smokes than gasoline.  So much that they tried to set up cigarette sales online. 

[Eagleboy99]

1 hour ago, granddaddy55 said:

price will be higher than even Europe’s

WESTERN Europe's prices are high due to taxes.  Go to eastern Europe and prices are on par with the US.

[85 Barefoot]

granddaddy, have to ask, what is your point?  That this truck isn't for everyone?  OK.  You keep talking about "mandates"?  Mandates for what?  Fact is that your scenario of "all day" recharge times earlier in this thread is not close to even what you can do now.  There at like 1700 supercharger locations in the country already.  Many are free if you bought a new tesla.  Many are joint ventures with other businesses, like starbucks parking lots.  Might as well get free "gas" when you get your soy latte, amirite?

 

I don't really care for the styling, but I am all for this buzz and market direction.  I intend a rivian to be my next truck.  Tesla in the mix will only make it better.   

[Eagleboy99]

Ford is putting half a billion (that's a B) into Rivian and they are sure to leverage that to the F150 in all-e and hybrid.  The latter will be a "gamechanger". 

[LateNightSalami]

3 hours ago, UWSkier said:

I wonder what things like noise isolation are going to be like on the production version.  One thing I really like about my current GMC is how well sealed everything is.  It's really nice and quiet inside even at 80 MPH.

I imagine if you're going to get anywhere close to the figures they're stating, they are going to want you on highway low rolling resistance meats as well.

I drive a Volt as my daily driver so I have some experience. So, correct me if I am wrong but most of the noise insulation for modern cars is to help drown out its own engine noise and vibration. With electric cars there is no engine noise. They are incredibly quiet. Unless you are still young enough to have your high frequency hearing in which case you can notice them if you are looking for the noise. Vibrations are much lower as there are no moving cylinders to compensate for or muffler system required. The main thing you would be insulating for would be wind noise which I believe is much easier to manage. I wouldn't worry much about noise mitigation for electric cars.

[UWSkier]

3 minutes ago, LateNightSalami said:

I drive a Volt as my daily driver so I have some experience. So, correct me if I am wrong but most of the noise insulation for modern cars is to help drown out its own engine noise and vibration. With electric cars there is no engine noise. They are incredibly quiet. Unless you are still young enough to have your high frequency hearing in which case you can notice them if you are looking for the noise. Vibrations are much lower as there are no moving cylinders to compensate for or muffler system required. The main thing you would be insulating for would be wind noise which I believe is much easier to manage. I wouldn't worry much about noise mitigation for electric cars.

On a truck, I'm thinking road noise from meaty tires.

[justgary]

3 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

https://insideevs.com/news/366514/will-towing-recover-range-anxiety/

I see.  Thanks.  I suspect that different gearing might help that, since the drive train is tuned for no trailer.  Exactly like changing a prop for your conditions. 

Hopefully the truck has a transmission.

[Eagleboy99]

I don't think they do, and if they do my bet is a CVT.  Yay. (Not)

[UWSkier]

This thing is huge next to an F150 crew.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by UWSkier

[Fffrank]

4 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

Also , make this move to electric in large measure mandated in any way,  fuel prices will skyrocket as refiners will spot refine to the ordered demand and the price will be higher than even Europe’s .  They suffer  from this now from just their smaller cars

Also Fact: CAFE standards lead to more lives lost per accident 

this whole thing is intended for the short commute or home city errand running and their trying to convince you it’s all commercially viable for all forms of usage beyond that , they are not 

might work for big semis because if truck stop size but under any real load and weight of big batteries necessary for big  load over time thru will never have long haul range to get a long run day accomplished for a driver within his 14-18 allowable hours

and again diesel for  the long hails will skyrocket because of spot refining increasing the cost of most goods 

You keep harping about government mandates and hand-outs but you don't seem to realize that if we paid the actual cost for gasoline it would be 2-4x higher than what it is now.  The gas/oil industry receives GIANT government subsidies (before we even start talking about ethanol) and I just can't figure out why this doesn't bother you gassers?

[Eagleboy99]

30 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

The gas/oil industry receives GIANT government subsidies

Oh my... that old saw again.  And like Dad used to say "That old saw does not get sharper with time".  Have you actually looked into those "subsidies" and the benefits they provide in terms of taxes and  employment?  If you are going down the no subsidies for anyone route, tread softly.  Unintended consequences.

[Fffrank]

1 hour ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Oh my... that old saw again.  And like Dad used to say "That old saw does not get sharper with time".  Have you actually looked into those "subsidies" and the benefits they provide in terms of taxes and  employment?  If you are going down the no subsidies for anyone route, tread softly.  Unintended consequences.

I think you're misunderstanding me.  I'm not against subsidies -- but I am against people constantly complaining about subsidies and "gub'ment handouts" talking out the other side of their mouths about how it's their american right to burn as much cheap gas as possible.

[granddaddy55]

16 hours ago, Fffrank said:

You keep harping about government mandates and hand-outs but you don't seem to realize that if we paid the actual cost for gasoline it would be 2-4x higher than what it is now.  The gas/oil industry receives GIANT government subsidies (before we even start talking about ethanol) and I just can't figure out why this doesn't bother you gassers?

Please technically explain 2 to 4 times higher please ?  more production and refining , cheaper gas ,  you aren’t talking about oil well depreciation are you( forget the real word) ?,  all businesses get accelerated depreciation in the tax code 

what,  you haven’t enjoyed the cheaper gas this season ??? In your boat .  Electric wakeboats would only be good on a lift and used for sets and return to dock/lift.  Gas would only go up if we tried to make that move

and I don’t want ethanol mandated in my gas cause it causes a higher price to add it and the ethanol is subsidized because of a mandate ,  it’s crop subsidies for farmers I don’t agree with snd it will ruin small gas engines if we go to 15, 10 is already a problem 

oil built this country and if you lessen the demand the oil companies will spot refine and the price goes through the roof and I grew up boating on .$50 cent a gallon premium gas and the only thing that ruined that for two decades was regulation against the oil industry ,  where is the regulation against electric ( that’s generated mostly with fossil fuels )

AND nothing is as efficient (what it can accomplish and how fast) than even an $8 gallon of gas 

I want gas to remain cheap and moves to electric will only increase the price 
 

and no one has yet reasoned that these things would be good on a long trip that I started this discussion with and again the cost of commercial real estate to accommodate large and multiple vehicles  and sitting there instead of 10 minutes in and out including store visit 

and the long haul truckers using these would clog up your stations on your trips because of their load factors burning up the charge

you really  think these charges are going to remain cheap if we move to electric ?

have you seen the strip mining holes for lithium vs the grass growing around an established fracking site

Edited November 26, 2019 by granddaddy55

[Eagleboy99]

And guess where most of the world's lithium comes from?  Yup - China.  Then South America.  The USA would no longer be energy independent.   China stops selling rare earth metals and we are all pooched, especially if electrification is the only way to move things.  I guess you could always take over South America.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Eagleboy99
Spelling

[LateNightSalami]

21 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I don't think they do, and if they do my bet is a CVT.  Yay. (Not)

I am not sure this would even be necessary. Electric motors put down their peak torque at 0 rpms and they have an insanely wide RPM range for their peak power band. This is why most electric cars are single speed. If anything you might need 2 gears, one to get it off the line and one for cruising, but even this scenario is way simpler than a standard gas engine transmission.

[Pra4sno]

3 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

And guess where most of the world's lithium comes from?  Yup - China.  Then South America.  The USA would no longer be energy independent.   China stops selling rare earth metals and we are all pooched, especially if electrification is the only way to move things.  I guess you could always take over South America.

Where are you getting your information?  

Australia, Canada, Mexico and the U.S. have the largest Lithium mines in the world. 

Solid State batteries are far more energy dense, reliable, safe, and are produced without these metals.  They are already in production, we will likely see them in our lifetime.  

Long haul electric are to have pack exchange.  Rapid charging stations (we just used one for a friends Tesla) are charging nearly 50-60% in 15 minutes.  Most owners charge at home - my friend has owned his a full year and charged under 10 times at stations.  How is this to clog up charging stations?

There's grass growing at Chernobyl, what an argument to prove the legitimacy of fracking vs strip mining.  They are both horrible options, yet one continues to allow for repeated charging is recycleable/retreadable (Lithium) vs gas which is purely consumable.

I'm not sure why everyone is so entrenched in not diversifying our energy demands.  Electric is an American industry.  The cars are built here, the batteries are built here, the raw goods come from here and allies.  The U.S. has had decades of not being energy independent which came from periods where we were entirely focused on fossil fuels - we have been most greatly impacted BY changes in that industry.  

Edited November 26, 2019 by Pra4sno

[Eagleboy99]

52 minutes ago, Pra4sno said:

Australia, Canada, Mexico and the U.S. have the largest Lithium mines in the world. 

Don't confuse production with reserves.  It is true, Australia currently produces the most lithium, but its reserves pale in comaprison to South America's "Lithium Triangle" (Chile, Argentina and Bolivia - well over half the worlds reserves). Argentina and Bolivia are not in that great of shape right.  China  produces other critical metals and has them in spades.  And while it is true Tesla makes batteries in the US, USA has just over 1% of the world's lithium production  and a fraction of that lef tin reserves.  So Tesla is at the mercy of foreign  oligolopies in unstable countries.

[Eagleboy99]

55 minutes ago, Pra4sno said:

There's grass growing at Chernobyl

So what?  It is radioactive.  I've been to the exclusion zone.

[LateNightSalami]

4 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

AND nothing is as efficient (what it can accomplish and how fast) than even an $8 gallon of gas 

How are you defining efficiency here? The only thing that gas has going for it is the completely insane energy density that it provides. In terms of raw energy efficiency gas motors don't even come close to electric motors. Going by average MPGe alone electric motors get 2.5-4 times the work per kWh put in compared to a gas motor. Electric motors have more instantaneous and better peak torque and a much much much wider peak power band. The only thing holding back electric motors right now is the energy density of their fuel system. Batteries currently just can't store as much energy as a gallon of gas can which enable you to do more in 1 unit (1 tank of gas vs 1 battery charge) at a time but there are ways to mitigate this.

5 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

you really  think these charges are going to remain cheap if we move to electric ?

Right now gas is very cheap because it is an economy of scale. How do you know electric charging stations would not also benefit greatly from becoming an economy of scale? It works for gas, why wouldn't a scale economy work for electric? What about ideas that could become practical like hot swappable batteries that greatly reduce your on station time for renewing your electric car? It seems weird to claim gas works on scale so we shouldn't scale it back but then also say that electric can't work on scale.

[justgary]

@Pra4sno- Lithium is used in batteries because of its position on the periodic table since it is very light and very reactive. 

The fact that one can make a battery with sodium or potassium doesn't mean that lithium won't continue to beat them in energy density, either by weight or volume.  Expect to see lithium used for a very long time.