All about biggest/best surf wave. T23 vs A24

[massew]

Im riding a 2012 malibu 21 vride 340 monsoon.

Seriously, its always fully loaded with ballast, 3 800lbs fatsac and peoples. kind of up to the engines limit. I like the wave and feel it hold on remarkably in time.

But I Never had the chance to compare with a bigger boat. I did rode a G25 fully loaded but I really wasnt impressed. Compared to what I have. I was prepared to be wowed.

I wish to go for a 2020 order full equip but cant decide between t23 vs a24. Are they different in surfwake size/shape? I will always maximise its potential no matter how much fatsac I need to weight in. 

Any personal experience going from a 21 to a 23/24 footer?

 

Thanks a lot guys!

 

[daylorb]

The A24 is generally thought to have the better surf wave, but I would think properly rigged either will be a pretty big improvement over the 2012 21.  Tough choice - I personally like the looks of the T23 better, but I got the A24 given the feedback on the wave and it is amazing.

[ahopkins22LSV]

Does the T23 have the 2:1 transmission and 17” prop? If not I’d say the A24 has more potential due to the transmission and prop as you can probably move more weight. Although adding too much can be detrimental to the wave in the new surf gate boats. You don’t want so much that the gate is under water. That said, both will produce great waves.

[massew]

The hull on these boat. Are they different than their respectives in Malibu?

Will The 23LSV shapes a better waves than the T23?

MXZ24 vs A24?

[massew]

11 hours ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

Does the T23 have the 2:1 transmission and 17” prop? If not I’d say the A24 has more potential due to the transmission and prop as you can probably move more weight. Although adding too much can be detrimental to the wave in the new surf gate boats. You don’t want so much that the gate is under water. That said, both will produce great waves.

Really? What is the kind of maximum limit weight

[ahopkins22LSV]

27 minutes ago, massew said:

Really? What is the kind of maximum limit weight

Typically the factory hard tank and recommend plug n play bags get you 95-98% there. People then tweak to their liking with lead to offset prop rotation or bow weight. Very few people are running 1000 plug n play bags, extra midship ballast or massive amounts of bow ballast anymore. The new bulls have been designed around surfgate so you don’t have to have crazy amounts of weight now. You still run a lot, but it’s like it was back in 2013-15ish. 

Malibu recommends 550’s or 750’s for the A24 and T23. 750s will probably be best because the boat’s are long and it won’t take as much bow weight to offset it. You may find you need some extra bow weight in additional to the recommended plug n play bag for the bow to offset the 750’s and a large crew. Or have to drain some rear ballast. If water is going over the extended gate when st surf speed you have too much weight, mostly too much rear weight. 

Example, this was yesterday on our vtx. All factory tanks 100% full and the 550 plug n play bags at about 80-85%. 3 adults and a toddler in the boat. Only 200 of lead extra all the way forward in the bow. 10.5mph, 3100-3300rpms and PW3 at spot 3 from lift. If I would have added more rear or cabin weight I would have sunk the gate and the wave would be completely washed out. 

[massew]

53 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

Typically the factory hard tank and recommend plug n play bags get you 95-98% there. People then tweak to their liking with lead to offset prop rotation or bow weight. Very few people are running 1000 plug n play bags, extra midship ballast or massive amounts of bow ballast anymore. The new bulls have been designed around surfgate so you don’t have to have crazy amounts of weight now. You still run a lot, but it’s like it was back in 2013-15ish. 

Malibu recommends 550’s or 750’s for the A24 and T23. 750s will probably be best because the boat’s are long and it won’t take as much bow weight to offset it. You may find you need some extra bow weight in additional to the recommended plug n play bag for the bow to offset the 750’s and a large crew. Or have to drain some rear ballast. If water is going over the extended gate when st surf speed you have too much weight, mostly too much rear weight. 

Example, this was yesterday on our vtx. All factory tanks 100% full and the 550 plug n play bags at about 80-85%. 3 adults and a toddler in the boat. Only 200 of lead extra all the way forward in the bow. 10.5mph, 3100-3300rpms and PW3 at spot 3 from lift. If I would have added more rear or cabin weight I would have sunk the gate and the wave would be completely washed out. 

Thanks for the info!

I understand now. Whenever you put more people over the allready full ballast, youll need to drain. This thought never happened in my 20 years of surf boating. usually the more people you have, the beat experience. Then the day you dont have friends. then main goal is to replicate with more fatsac. I guess im may be stuck in 2012. My mission delta changed the game for us, but still, it is submerged deep and not problem. I guess whenever the wake gets washed out, its adjustable with the wedge 

[massew]

2012 Malibu 21vride.

10.6mph

mission delta wakeshaper version 1

stock ballast Full

2 Rear Fat Sack 800lbs

1 Front Fat Sack 700lbs

3 adult and 2 kids

https://imgur.com/gallery/SCcIiLy

!there should be an official thread for this!

 

 

[Raleigh]

I am wrestling with this as well. I've been on both and feel the A24 has a better wave but I did't test drive in the same day with same crew. It's hard for me to remember which was best, but I feel the A24 was better. I had an epic time on it overall, surfing, wake boarding, and foiling. That thing is a beast. The wakeboard wave is like a wall. I feel the surf was better too, but again, hard to remember (surfing will be primary for me). Based off displacement and size, I would think the A24 would be better just based on physics.

Hard to tell but I figured I'd give my $0.02. I also feel that the A24 will be a better resale than the T23, which is opposite what happens on the Malibu line (23LSV seems like the champion there, and probably better resale there than on any Axis but who knows... so much is speculative). That's just my thought and I have absolutely nothing to back it up other than where my head and heart have been through this process and what I've learned on Bu Crew.

Would you mind letting us know which was best after you test drive each of them? Dealer should be able to arrange, no sweat.

JUST MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE PNP BAGS installed on both... especially the A24. It is garbage without it. This definitely skewed my initial position negatively when the dealer took me out without them. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Raleigh

[massew]

10 hours ago, Raleigh said:

I am wrestling with this as well. I've been on both and feel the A24 has a better wave but I did't test drive in the same day with same crew. It's hard for me to remember which was best, but I feel the A24 was better. I had an epic time on it overall, surfing, wake boarding, and foiling. That thing is a beast. The wakeboard wave is like a wall. I feel the surf was better too, but again, hard to remember (surfing will be primary for me). Based off displacement and size, I would think the A24 would be better just based on physics.

Hard to tell but I figured I'd give my $0.02. I also feel that the A24 will be a better resale than the T23, which is opposite what happens on the Malibu line (23LSV seems like the champion there, and probably better resale there than on any Axis but who knows... so much is speculative). That's just my thought and I have absolutely nothing to back it up other than where my head and heart have been through this process and what I've learned on Bu Crew.

Would you mind letting us know which was best after you test drive each of them? Dealer should be able to arrange, no sweat.

JUST MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE PNP BAGS installed on both... especially the A24. It is garbage without it. This definitely skewed my initial position negatively when the dealer took me out without them. 

Exactly! Test driving without putting the extra effort of the fatsac and PNP is a time waste.

Im also looking into the T23 because I too associate it with the 23LSV.

Back when I bought my 2012 21Vride Brandnew. I was more informed on the evolutions of every Hulls. I knew at that time I was buying the last Gen of 21VLX. Wich I already knew was great. 

I also know that when they got the T22 out. They took the same 21vride hull shape for it. So Im guessing the T23 =23 Vride = ?2005-2008?gen 23LSV.

But for the A22 in 2012, I remember the wakeboard wake was lacking steepness where the T22 was not.

So since this time, I always felt weird about the A series.

Until now where my time left for wakeboarding, apart from surfing, got completely taken over from foilling (Thanks Slingshot)

Now its all about the biggest wave between 10 to 13 mph.

[Raleigh]

On 9/22/2019 at 8:20 AM, massew said:

The hull on these boat. Are they different than their respectives in Malibu?

Will The 23LSV shapes a better waves than the T23?

MXZ24 vs A24?

I think they have the same hulls but correct me if I am wrong!

[Raleigh]

On 9/21/2019 at 11:02 AM, daylorb said:

The A24 is generally thought to have the better surf wave, but I would think properly rigged either will be a pretty big improvement over the 2012 21.  Tough choice - I personally like the looks of the T23 better, but I got the A24 given the feedback on the wave and it is amazing.

Do you add any lead to your A24?

[hethj7]

4 minutes ago, Raleigh said:

I think they have the same hulls but correct me if I am wrong!

I don’t think it has ever been confirmed they are the same.  I think it is more likely they are different.  The T23 is a half foot longer than the 23LSV.   

[daylorb]

14 hours ago, Raleigh said:

Do you add any lead to your A24?

My setup is:

 

Rear lockers: 850 Wakemakers custom sacs

Bow: 650 Wakemakers custom sac

Center: Stock

Lead: 200lb pax side center/under dash

11.6mph, Wedge on 3 for me

I have another 200 lbs of lead, have not used it yet, generally I have 2-3 other people in the boat.

The wave is about as good as I could imagine it to be.  Starboard side is ridiculous, port is awesome.  It is too big for kids/beginners/too steep.

[Raleigh]

27 minutes ago, daylorb said:

My setup is:

 

Rear lockers: 850 Wakemakers custom sacs

Bow: 650 Wakemakers custom sac

Center: Stock

Lead: 200lb pax side center/under dash

11.6mph, Wedge on 3 for me

I have another 200 lbs of lead, have not used it yet, generally I have 2-3 other people in the boat.

The wave is about as good as I could imagine it to be.  Starboard side is ridiculous, port is awesome.  It is too big for kids/beginners/too steep.

That sounds just about perfect to me. That 200# of lead seems like a reasonable amount without overweighting the boat for trailering. 

I really want the A24 but am second guessing myself with all the 23LSV  fanboys out there and resale potential. Your A24 comments have been very helpful. 

What engine are you working with? I’m debating M6 or M5. With the lift setting on the wedge I’m currently leaning M5 but still debating.

I’ll probably have 2-4 people on the boat regularly and up to 8 at rare times so it seems like a similar setup. I just want the extra space when needed and I like riding in the bow when others drive so the a24 legroom is nice.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Raleigh

[formerathlete]

If I was going with an A24, I'd do everything I can to get the M6. The difference between the past options (409 and 450) wasn't enough to justify going with the 450 but looking at the M5 and M6 CARB numbers, the difference is definitely enough to justify spending more for the M6 (IMO), if you can somehow make it work. You'll never have to worry about having enough power.

Edited September 25, 2019 by formerathlete

[Raleigh]

54 minutes ago, formerathlete said:

If I was going with an A24, I'd do everything I can to get the M6. The difference between the past options (409 and 450) wasn't enough to justify going with the 450 but looking at the M5 and M6 CARB numbers, the difference is definitely enough to justify spending more for the M6 (IMO), if you can somehow make it work. You'll never have to worry about having enough power.

Thank you for this comment. I'm leaning that direction. After mentioning the dealer comment on going M6, I noticed they ordered their showroom models in the M5 variety, to keep prices down. That said, I would hate to take the M5, especially if I end up keeping the boat long-term! You can't add an engine option later unlike nearly every other option...

[formerathlete]

I'm pretty sure Agarabaghi ordered the M6 in his A24 and I think he'll be getting it pretty soon. He always gives great feedback, so it will be great to hear what he has to say. The A24 is so big, with so much potential ballast and even with the 2:1 and a 17 or 18" prop, I think it's slightly underpowered with the M5, especially with big crew and/or at altitude. Going from the M5's 373 ft. lbs to the M6's 446 ft. lbs. is significant. But I'm guessing the price difference is significant too, unfortunately.

Edited September 25, 2019 by formerathlete

[05hammerhead]

On 9/22/2019 at 9:47 AM, massew said:

2012 Malibu 21vride.

10.6mph

mission delta wakeshaper version 1

stock ballast Full

2 Rear Fat Sack 800lbs

1 Front Fat Sack 700lbs

3 adult and 2 kids

https://imgur.com/gallery/SCcIiLy

!there should be an official thread for this!

Youre gonna get a good wave with this setup, no question. That said, itll take you 15 mins to get it set up and 15 mins to dump to go to the dock.  The bigger gain is in the ease to get setup, with either axis, you should be surfing in 5 mins. 

I wakeboard 90% of the time and I have the M6 in my 22MXZ.  I like it, but its still not enough motor for me.  Ill splurge the next time for the SC motor.  That being said, if you dont wakeboard super heavy, you dont need it or even the M6.  The M5 is more than enough to surf. 

[Raleigh]

12 minutes ago, formerathlete said:

I'm pretty sure Agarabaghi ordered the M6 in his A24 and I think he'll be getting it pretty soon. He always gives great feedback, so it will be great to hear what he has to say. The A24 is so big, with so much potential ballast and even with the 2:1 and a 17 or 18" prop, I think it's slightly underpowered with the M5, especially with big crew and/or at altitude. Going from the M5's 373 ft. lbs to the M6's 446 ft. lbs. is significant. But I'm guessing the price difference is significant too, unfortunately.

The engine upgrade is just shy of $5,000 MSRP. It seems to be less costly than previous model engine upgrades but still a lot at 4-6% of boat cost.

There should be about $1,000 of dealer margin built into that if past is precedent. Not apples to apples, but SeeDealerCost.com for 2019 A24 shows the below:

ENGINE UPGRADE: MONSOON 450 60L HO CAT +$5,556.00 MSRP  +$4,445.00 Invoice (dealer cost estimate) source: https://seedealercost.com/marine/browse/product/axis-wake-boats-a24-2019

I'm stoked to hear from Agarabaghi about his!

[Raleigh]

10 minutes ago, 05hammerhead said:

Youre gonna get a good wave with this setup, no question. That said, itll take you 15 mins to get it set up and 15 mins to dump to go to the dock.  The bigger gain is in the ease to get setup, with either axis, you should be surfing in 5 mins. 

I wakeboard 90% of the time and I have the M6 in my 22MXZ.  I like it, but its still not enough motor for me.  Ill splurge the next time for the SC motor.  That being said, if you dont wakeboard super heavy, you dont need it or even the M6.  The M5 is more than enough to surf. 

Do you use lift mode at all out of the pocket? I heard this helps with underpowered engines but obviously not enough in your case for wakeboarding. I've spent 23 years with an underpowered engine so I am heavily leaning towards the M6. Just in case!

[formerathlete]

We have the 409 (363hp/341ft. lbs) and use lift mode whenever we wakeboard, even with minimal ballast. It definitely makes a difference. With full ballast (around 3100lbs), ours struggles a bit to get up to wakeboard speeds, even in lift mode, but that's a lot of weight to push and we are running an ACME 2279 and not the 2249 it came with, so that's not ideal for fully-sacked wakeboard runs. We usually only wakeboard with with hard tanks full (no plug n play) and with lift mode, we're on plane in no time. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by formerathlete

[ahopkins22LSV]

FWIW, all of the posts on here about the M5 performance has been in reference to it being paired to a 1:76:1 transmission and 15” prop. No one on here, that I’ve seen post has had experience with it paired with the 2:1 17” prop. It would probably be worth demo’ing prior to purchase, like always actually. Maybe it’s still not best for the A24, but at least you’ll know other then the speculation on here. 

[Raleigh]

1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

FWIW, all of the posts on here about the M5 performance has been in reference to it being paired to a 1:76:1 transmission and 15” prop. No one on here, that I’ve seen post has had experience with it paired with the 2:1 17” prop. It would probably be worth demo’ing prior to purchase, like always actually. Maybe it’s still not best for the A24, but at least you’ll know other then the speculation on here. 

I found it worked OK but was behind the boat. Only 2 people on so not sure what another 800 to 1500 pounds of people plus ice and beer and water and a bit of lead would do. Seemed good enough! But there’s that nagging feeling...

[ahopkins22LSV]

7 hours ago, Raleigh said:

I found it worked OK but was behind the boat. Only 2 people on so not sure what another 800 to 1500 pounds of people plus ice and beer and water and a bit of lead would do. Seemed good enough! But there’s that nagging feeling...

I’d get a group of people together and go demo again. Or add external ballast to simulate the extra crew and cooler weight. I wouldn’t want to just ponder it. I mean the M6 is awesome and you are ok with the cost then I’m sure it will be amazing but I get the feeling you aren’t comfortable with the cost but also aren’t comfortable with the thought of the M5. Luckily you can answer all of your M5 questions before you sign on the dotted line.