M5 Disappointment

[pauley71]

I agree with @IXFE ... the 17" prop will make a big difference.  I stand behind my statement that my boat will get on plane w/ full ballast.  I did it this weekend with 4 people in the boat and full ballast using lift mode BUT it definitely took time to get over the 13-16 MPH hump and the nose was straight up until it planned out.  I had no people in the front so bow weight might help.  What I did notice was that the engine wasn't 'struggling', the screw was just slipping.  30% more surface area (17" prop) will definitely help.  

[eubanks]

1 hour ago, gregtay said:

Same story with the 23LSV and the M6.  I can get on plane with everything (inc PnP) at 100%  and a good sized crew but I have to bury the throttle for 10-15 seconds or so and it is clear I am right on the edge (and sucking down gas!) Once it planes all is good. So no, I won't expect a motor with 50 less TQ to get it done.  I tend to agree with others that the "acceptable performance criteria" would be rear tanks full and PNP empty for wakeboarding (I guess with the new L shape tanks that is whatever % that makes the main part of the tank full with the upper L area and PnP empty.  My previous 23 with the 5.7/340 surfed fine with everything full but much like what people are experiencing with the M5 there was no way I was going to plane that thing out with the sacks full.  Just the 4 tanks at 100% (default factory wakeboarding config) was no problem.  

What prop?  I am surprised the M6 doesn't get on plane quicker even with the PNP full.  Sounds like I need to throw even more weight in the bow (has not helped yet) or dump weight in the rear and live with a smaller wake.  And obviously the amount of weight to take out of the rear would depend on the size of crew.

[gregtay]

7 minutes ago, eubanks said:

What prop?  I am surprised the M6 doesn't get on plane quicker even with the PNP full.  Sounds like I need to throw even more weight in the bow (has not helped yet) or dump weight in the rear and live with a smaller wake.  And obviously the amount of weight to take out of the rear would depend on the size of crew.

2277. So I could certainly prop it different for more power but I am happy with this prop for my needs. I don't have any issue with the current set up, but with everything full and a few people in back I point the nose to the sky to get on plane. No weight up front.

[IXFE]

10 minutes ago, eubanks said:

I am surprised the M6 doesn't get on plane quicker even with the PNP full.  

You’re surprised because you’re falling into the same trap that most people do... that is assuming it’s all about the engine. Truth is, it’s much more about tranny, prop, and weight distribution (ie front to back). 

Many people new to the whole PnP game make this mistake... go to the lake with shiny new boat, press “fill all”, set aggressive wedge, and load a bunch of 200lb friends into the rear flip out bench. Then they’re surprised why the wave and boat performance sucks...

Stop and think about the physics of what you’re asking the boat to do (regardless of engine). Think about the angle of the prop with all that engine, water, people, gear, and wedge weight piled into the back. (note: this is one of the reasons I don’t much care for the rear facing bench... people tend to all wind up in that little mosh pit it creates in the back)  

Ask any dealer and they will tell you how many calls they get every year from newbies complaining about lack of power, bow rise, speed wall, etc. Many of these dealers have resorted to equipping the boats with SMALLER pnp bags just to cut down on the call volume and protect these new boat owners from themselves. I even talked to one dealer who won’t sell a boat with the auto vent feature. Why...? Because they know that without it the bags will partially fill with air... again, trying to prevent ignorant owners who don’t understand weight distribution from calling with these complaints  

If you have read anything on this forum about the 23 LSV (old and new) it’s that it needs bow weight, especially if you’re going to run FULL in the back. 

All this talk about engines, tranny ratios, and props... it’s all just a bandaid for improperly weighted boats.  Yeah, I’m a fan of the 17” prop. But I’m a bigger fan of learning how to weight your boat (see pic below for how I weighted my bow in the 23) 

And what’s the deal with wakeboarding with PnP bags anyway?  You better be riding at 80’ and 24mph doing inverts if you’re gonna claim you need to wakeboard with the sacks full. And we’re gonna need video evidence too. These boats make AMAZING wakeboard wakes with hard tanks and wedge only (which is how the factory presets are setup). 

[IXFE]

25 minutes ago, gregtay said:

 No weight up front.

🤦🏻‍♂️

[Murphy8166]

Its pretty interesting when you throw a 600lb bag up in the bow, the RPM's will decrease at wakeboard and surf speeds.  More weight...lower RPM???

The pitch of the boat from bow to stern has a lot to do with the performance.  Plus the weight in the bow will really firm the wake up!  4 out 3 people prefer a firm wake of a soft wake.

 

[Fman]

On 7/29/2019 at 10:58 AM, eubanks said:

Thanks @wdr.  I have been trying to wakeboard with all stock ballast full plus PNP and wedge 2-3 clicks from VERT.  We had 6 adults last week and a couple hundred lbs of lead.  With the M5 and 2249, RPM's surfing was totally dependent on wedge position.  Ramp was 3900 and more vert was around 4200.  Wakeboarding with ballast and wedge ran about 4500.  At 30 mph and no ballast I am running close to 5000.  I am willing to give up some additional top end to be able to run full stock ballast for surfing and wakeboarding.

With full hard tank ballast, wedge and full 550 PnP you will need a lot of bow weight to plane the boat out, regardless of what engine you have.  Have you tried to just run full hard tank ballast and use the wedge to adjust the height of wake? I tow a few advanced riders with full hard tanks, wedge at 3-4 clicks up, 22-23.5 mph riding at 70-75' and they love the wake.  Sometimes depending on crew size  (3-4 people) I will add another 10% to rear bags.

I have a 2017 LSV, not complete apple to apple with a new 2019 but I would try the above and see how it works for you.  I also run the 2277 prop with 1.72 trans, Raptor 410 and it does very well from sea level up to 2000' elevation.  I had 11 people in our boat last week at 2000' and was able to plane out with no issues with full hard tanks and wedge when wakeboarding.

[eubanks]

3 hours ago, IXFE said:

And what’s the deal with wakeboarding with PnP bags anyway?  You better be riding at 80’ and 24mph doing inverts if you’re gonna claim you need to wakeboard with the sacks full. And we’re gonna need video evidence too. These boats make AMAZING wakeboard wakes with hard tanks and wedge only (which is how the factory presets are setup). 

Ok, this is the funniest thing I’ve ever read on TMC!  So I need to submit video of my wakeboarding resume for you to determine if I’m good enough to ride with my PNP full?  I hope you’re being funny. Aren’t you on Lavon?  You can join me anytime on my boat and we can compare our inverts and rope lengths.  

 

I’ve been wakeboarding for 25+ years and have lost waaaaay more tricks than I’ve got now.  But the sport is much more fun with a big wake....period.  Ask the hard core guys and they all feel the same way.  Sure, I could do a couple inverts behind a bass boat but it’s much more fun behind a wake boat with a big wake and that’s a lot of the reason I bought a $100+k Malibu instead of a $25k i/o.

 

 

[IXFE]

31 minutes ago, eubanks said:

Ok, this is the funniest thing I’ve ever read on TMC!  So I need to submit video of my wakeboarding resume for you to determine if I’m good enough to ride with my PNP full?  I hope you’re being funny. Aren’t you on Lavon?  You can join me anytime on my boat and we can compare our inverts and rope lengths.  

 

I’ve been wakeboarding for 25+ years and have lost waaaaay more tricks than I’ve got now.  But the sport is much more fun with a big wake....period.  Ask the hard core guys and they all feel the same way.  Sure, I could do a couple inverts behind a bass boat but it’s much more fun behind a wake boat with a big wake and that’s a lot of the reason I bought a $100+k Malibu instead of a $25k i/o.

 

 

I was totally joking, man. Sorry, sarcasm doesn’t translate.

But I’d love to meet you. Seriously, I’m way nicer in person. I’d be happy to see what you’re struggling with. 

[shawndoggy]

but please post a video anyway.  I love seeing people throwing down.

[Sparky450]

8 hours ago, gregtay said:

I can get on plane with everything (inc PnP) at 100%  and a good sized crew but I have to bury the throttle for 10-15 seconds or so and it is clear I am right on the edge (and sucking down gas!)

I am a little different as I have a 25. I have learned NOT to hammer down. I ease in slow. As I come up to speed it will not lock in. The bar won’t even show. I give a quick full blip and back out. The bar drops I do this a time or two. Never loosing rpm/speed and it locks and hold. I have found it is about varying throttle at times when I am heavy. Full stock, PNP, and 9-10 adults!!  I have had problems and had to drain but only once. Oh Oh oh. I also run 700 lead spread through the boat!!! 😎

[05hammerhead]

11 hours ago, eubanks said:

I’ve been wakeboarding for 25+ years and have lost waaaaay more tricks than I’ve got now.  But the sport is much more fun with a big wake....period.  Ask the hard core guys and they all feel the same way.  Sure, I could do a couple inverts behind a bass boat but it’s much more fun behind a wake boat with a big wake and that’s a lot of the reason I bought a $100+k Malibu instead of a $25k i/o.

With 25 years experience, you should know how to weight your boat.    60/40 has always been the recipe.  The problem these days is "stock" is built for surfers not wakeboarders.  If you wakeboard, then you know youre gonna need 500 lbs of lead in the nose.  

Id be real surprised if you dont get crazy porpoising without having a bunch of weight or people in the bow too. 

Now, lets see these videos.  I love watching people drop hammers.  This is my crew I ride with in the end of a buddys youtube video.  Thats my batmobile, but you wont see any of my riding on this one. 

 

[wdr]

For those looking for an alternate prop for the M5 for more wake boarding specific use I did get some very basic numbers last night. Let me preface this by saying that my ACME 2773 has been re-cupped to .150. The OEM specs from ACME are: 15 x 13 with a .105 cup. The performance difference between .105 cup and .150 cup "for me" has consistently been showing a 200 rpm drop with the .150 cup regardless of activity. YRMV. OJ most likely has both cup options for their 15 x 13, but they don't show cup specs, at least not on the WM site. You would have to call them to confirm.

Set up was: 2 adults @300 lbs. with basic boat load of stuff. 15lb mushroom and 15lb medium box anchor along with my empty 850 bag and Sumo pump and a basket of towels in the front passenger storage by the amps. A case of water in the opposing cabin rear storage corners with tool box @5 lbs., life jackets, first aid kit and the BABz and plastic 12v air pump on the port side @15 lbs. The Malibu cooler with chips inside, trash can, plastic box of sun screen and a plastic box of ballast fittings and board fins etc… and a rack of coozies on the other @15 lbs. The rear lockers only had the 570 pnps in them. The transom flip ups had ropes on one side and brushes and dish soap in the other one.

66% fuel load or about 42gal of 89 octane at 6.3 lbs. per gallon gets 265lbs. The current was running @.09mph per the boat GPS and the speed test was set on paddle wheel for all of the runs. I did all the runs going up stream at 19 mph. May be slow for some but you can figure to add probably 200 rpm for 21 mph, a guess!

I switched between 2 from VERT and 2 from RAMP on the wedge on ALL runs and saw about a 150rpm difference. From the PRESETS, the wedge from the lift mode engaged consistently at 17 mph for the 19 mph PRESET speed.

Empty run saw a smooth ride and steady 3650 rpm at 20mph on cruise and 30mph saw 5000rpm which my wife commented on how “buzzy it was”.

1st run at 100% on the screen. Max MLS, 570 pnp full and over flowing, wedge 2 form VERT saw 4350 rpm and 2 from RAMP saw 4250 rpm. When I shut down I actually got water into the rear storage buckets and on top of the sun pad. I did not get a chance to fill the 850 in the bow which may help the hole shot some?

2nd run at 75% on the screen. Max MLS, 570 pnp appeared to just have the top portion of the bags as empty. Wedge 2 from VERT saw 4250rpn and 2 from RAMP saw 4200 rpm.

3rd run at 50% on the screen. Max MLS, 570 pnp appeared to have the water in just the lower portion of the bags. Wedge 2 from VERT saw 4150 rpm and 2 from RAMP saw 4000 rpm.

In all of these runs the right side wave looked crazy lippy and the left side wave looked like total crap! I moved over to that side and the wave instantly cleared up. So I am guessing that the effects of the prop were the main cause and everyone is going to want to put people or more weight over there to clean it up.

As others have stated if I eased in to the throttle up to 4500 rpm the boat seemed to perform better. I did feel a little cavitation at about 3000-3500 on initial launch, but I imagine that is to be expected given the weight. After initial launch, the ride was very smooth and changing directions dodging junk in the water saw only minimal speed loss. I was not pulling a boarder, so that may make a big difference! Overall, once I reached set speed I never had to mess with keeping the bar in the speed window regardless of whether or not I was changing direction. This prop hold speeds really well for surfing and wakeboarding. No porposing at all, not even a hint.

Edited August 1, 2019 by wdr
Correction

[eubanks]

UPDATE: Dealer is looking at all of our issues with the boat including the "performance" issues for getting on plane and also running such high RPM's. Their input is that the standard prop for the M5 is the 2249 (15x14.25) and we should swap for the 2773 (15x13) which is the high torque prop for this setup.  Thoughts?

Edited August 21, 2019 by eubanks

[Nacibound]

Prop can make all the difference in the world. I'd definitely try swapping props if you haven't.

[SWALKER]

On 7/9/2019 at 4:17 AM, wdr said:

With the M5 (86 hours now), the 570 pnps 3/4 full and the 2773 I don't have a problem getting to or holding surf speeds. I normally see 3850-3900 rpms at @ 11.2 mph with the wedge at 2 clicks from lift. If I am using the 850 in the walk through and the wedge at 3 clicks from vert I will see @ 4050 rpm with the same load. I have yet  to pull a wake boarder and imagine I would be seeing about 4100 rpm with a full MLS @ 20 mph. I haven't messed with the lift mode yet for surfing because I haven't had a need to. With the 2773 cruising empty I see 3700 to 3800 rpm from the paddle wheel at 20 mph, river current dependent . I was thinking about putting on a 2249 as my main prop to pick up some cruising speed but I am going to have to demo one from the dealer before I commit. There is a big drop in noise when you drop 500 rpm, but there is no exhaust noise to cover up any other noises. I don't think I will be able to achieve a happy balance between cruising speed and surfing speed rpms with this boat and motor by just switching props like I did on my ‘10. It is just too much boat to get there. If someone has found that golden prop I am all ears. I think a different trans ratio would help to quiet things down, but it would probably push the torque curve to a less desirable location. BICBW

Do you have any knocking at low speeds (1-5mph)? I have a knock On our 19 23 LSV with the M5 I can’t figure out and don’t want it to go to the dealer yet...still got some good weather left!

[wdr]

 Only underway 1-5 mph sounds like something might be wrapped around the prop or shaft. It may disappear at higher speeds due to the water forcing it away from the hull so it doesn’t make contact. No knocking on mine yet. Just what one wouldn’t expect from normal drive train noises. I would discount anything wrapped around the prop or prop shaft then look to see if you might have something stuck to the shaft coupler head or the prop shaft in the bilge.I had enough loose pieces of tape, zip ties and spare parts to build another boat. I had one squealing issue which I found was the kinked feed line for the dripless shaft seal. The pressure built up to the point it sounded exactly like someone letting the air out of a balloon. I had to pull it out from under the raw water line for the trans cooler. Cylinders 7and 8 had two bad plug wires at 16 hours. Otherwise no power plant issues.

Edited September 9, 2019 by wdr

[Raleigh]

On 7/31/2019 at 4:20 PM, gregtay said:

Same story with the 23LSV and the M6.  I can get on plane with everything (inc PnP) at 100%  and a good sized crew but I have to bury the throttle for 10-15 seconds or so and it is clear I am right on the edge (and sucking down gas!) Once it planes all is good. So no, I won't expect a motor with 50 less TQ to get it done.  I tend to agree with others that the "acceptable performance criteria" would be rear tanks full and PNP empty for wakeboarding (I guess with the new L shape tanks that is whatever % that makes the main part of the tank full with the upper L area and PnP empty.  My previous 23 with the 5.7/340 surfed fine with everything full but much like what people are experiencing with the M5 there was no way I was going to plane that thing out with the sacks full.  Just the 4 tanks at 100% (default factory wakeboarding config) was no problem.  

I take it you're happy you got the engine upgrade? I’m debating M6 on an A24

[Cory]

On 7/31/2019 at 8:08 PM, shawndoggy said:

but please post a video anyway.  I love seeing people throwing down.

A Full Send (as in Jerry of the Day) is even better. Either way, please post...

Edited September 9, 2019 by Cory

[Cory]

As to the original topic...  I made this mistake with a 2013 VLX.  I checked almost every box on that order form, but the engine upgrade.  I ordered it with the 5.7L Monsoon engine because my previous 2008 vRide with the 5.7L base engine never seemed to lack power.  I immediately regretted that decision.  I was in a new boat by 2015 and ordered the 6.2L engine.  I still have that 2015 VLX and have never ran out of throttle.  I will never again order a boat with anything less than the 6.2L. 

When surfing we run: full stock ballast, 2 clicks of wedge, 800lbs PNP sacs each side (but they don't get 100% full), 300 lbs of lead, 600 lbs bow sac, plus three or four adults.

The new 23 LSVs are starting to look mighty fine (with the M6 engine).  

[UWSkier]

23 minutes ago, Cory said:

As to the original topic...  I made this mistake with a 2013 VLX.  I checked almost every box on that order form, but the engine upgrade.  I ordered it with the 5.7L Monsoon engine because my previous 2008 vRide with the 5.7L base engine never seemed to lack power.  I immediately regretted that decision.  I was in a new boat by 2015 and ordered the 6.2L engine.  I still have that 2015 VLX and have never ran out of throttle.  I will never again order a boat with anything less than the 6.2L. 

When surfing we run: full stock ballast, 2 clicks of wedge, 800lbs PNP sacs each side (but they don't get 100% full), 300 lbs of lead, 600 lbs bow sac, plus three or four adults.

The new 23 LSVs are starting to look mighty fine (with the M6 engine).  

When ordering a stern drive or a surf boat, always get the biggest engine available.

[Raleigh]

On 7/31/2019 at 10:32 AM, Pnwrider said:

Which of the current motors do not require 93 octane? I can only get 89 on the lake. 

They all do https://www.axiswake.com/axis-wake-and-malibu-monsoon-engines

[wdr]

According to Malibu, they don’t require premium, but perform best on it. “While the M5Di and M6Di will run all day long on regular fuel, to reach peak performance premium fuel will help you get that last bit of torque and horsepower out of your engine”. Now that the cost of premium has reached a reasonable price here $2.60 gal I have been running it exclusively. I still can’t say for sure that I can see or feel a difference.

[Raleigh]

4 minutes ago, wdr said:

According to Malibu, they don’t require premium, but perform best on it. “While the M5Di and M6Di will run all day long on regular fuel, to reach peak performance premium fuel will help you get that last bit of torque and horsepower out of your engine”. Now that the cost of premium has reached a reasonable price here $2.60 gal I have been running it exclusively. I still can’t say for sure that I can see or feel a difference.

I take it you use the standard non marine 10% ethanol variety as well at those prices?

[carguy79ta]

I have the PCM H6 variant and I run 87. I have run no eth. Premium, no noticable diff. Except for the cost.