M5 Disappointment

[ahopkins22LSV]

An 05 LSV is also 4 (I think) hull generations ago from the current hull. You are moving wayyyyy more boat than you were in your 05. It’s going to drive different regardless. And you probably don’t need your 3500-4000 lbs of ballast to wakeboard to have a similar wake. 

[Sparky450]

57 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

An 05 LSV is also 4 (I think) hull generations ago from the current hull. You are moving wayyyyy more boat than you were in your 05. It’s going to drive different regardless. And you probably don’t need your 3500-4000 lbs of ballast to wakeboard to have a similar wake. 

But we are always looking for more😁

[eubanks]

12 hours ago, wdr said:

I have had to occasionally remind myself of the countless hours and dollars spent to get my ‘10 LSV to surf like my ‘19 LSV does out of the box. I have also had to rationalize why my new 2010 cost 1/2 as much as my 2019! 

Agreed.  The "amenities" of the newer boats are insane.  For surfing, it's 1,000 times easier to setup and get a good/adjustable wave.  For wakeboarding the wake is fairly similar.  A bit more lip on the new boat but I would attribute that to the wedge positioning than the hull shape.

[eubanks]

Well, ran the boat all week on a lake trip. Still not performing well wakeboarding with full ballast and several adults in the boat. This is with the wedge in lift mode too. My dealer said it deploys into place from lift at your set speed, but I noticed it deploy around 20mph with speed set at 22. It takes forever to plane if it planes at all. Anybody got an alternative prop recommendation for the M5 to replace my 2249?  Curious from others that are running the M5 in a 23 as it has continued to struggle. We have been easing the throttle up to speed, but even then we still get the dreaded continual beeping sound to add more throttle even after the speed control has taken over. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by eubanks

[23LSVOwner]

8 hours ago, eubanks said:

Well, ran the boat all week on a lake trip. Still not performing well wakeboarding with full ballast and several adults in the boat. This is with the wedge in lift mode too. My dealer said it deploys into ola e from lift at your set speed, but I noticed it deploy around 20mph with speed set at 22. It takes forever to plane if it planes at all. Anybody got an alternative prop recommendation for the M5 to replace my 2249?  Curious from others that are running the M5 in a 23 as it has continued to struggle. We have been easing the throttle up to speed, but even then we still get the dreaded continual beeping sound to add more throttle even after the speed control has taken over. 

 

There is a software update that will fix it if it is a continual beep that you end up having to turn the battery switch off to stop.

Edited July 29, 2019 by 23LSVOwner
sausage fingers

[boardjnky4]

8 hours ago, eubanks said:

Well, ran the boat all week on a lake trip. Still not performing well wakeboarding with full ballast and several adults in the boat. This is with the wedge in lift mode too. My dealer said it deploys into ola e from lift at your set speed, but I noticed it deploy around 20mph with speed set at 22. It takes forever to plane if it planes at all. Anybody got an alternative prop recommendation for the M5 to replace my 2249?  Curious from others that are running the M5 in a 23 as it has continued to struggle. We have been easing the throttle up to speed, but even then we still get the dreaded continual beeping sound to add more throttle even after the speed control has taken over. 

You can go down to a 15x13, which would be an Acme 2773.

[UWSkier]

This thread reminds me of

[gregtay]

13 hours ago, eubanks said:

Well, ran the boat all week on a lake trip. Still not performing well wakeboarding with full ballast and several adults in the boat. This is with the wedge in lift mode too. My dealer said it deploys into place from lift at your set speed, but I noticed it deploy around 20mph with speed set at 22. It takes forever to plane if it planes at all. Anybody got an alternative prop recommendation for the M5 to replace my 2249?  Curious from others that are running the M5 in a 23 as it has continued to struggle. We have been easing the throttle up to speed, but even then we still get the dreaded continual beeping sound to add more throttle even after the speed control has taken over. 

The wedge deploying from Lift to your set position @ 20MPH sounds about right (I have seen it start to transition earlier than that.) It tends to swing into position as you approach your set speed (basically once you are going fast enough that the boat has obviously planed out.) So that seems to be working as intended.

Does "Full Ballast" mean tanks + PnP?,,, or just the tanks?  I would think with the correct prop you could plane out with everything (inc. PnP) full but I know even with my M6 w/ 2277 (standard prop) it takes a little effort to get on plane with 100% ballast + PnP + a few people in the boat.  I think I have only driven that way with the wedge stowed, not in lift (we were done surfing, I hit Go Home and start driving back to the dock.)  Basically I need 100% throttle (watching the fuel gauge drain!) for 10 seconds or so to get up on plane, then it is fine. 

Give the next prop down a try. If that doesn't work I'd see if your dealer can get you in contact with someone at Malibu to have a chat about the performance to see if they have any tips and to just compare what you are seeing vs. what maybe you should be seeing with your setup.  Malibu is very tuned in to conversations about the new motors and they also want to learn from what people are experiencing and what configs work best (or don't.)

 

[wdr]

I am running the 2773 15x13 ."105 cup", but I have yet to pull anyone wakeboarding. With full MLS, 570 pnps maxed, 850 sumo in the bow and wedge sitting normally between the 7 and 5 o'clock positions on the screen, I will see between 3900-4000 rpm surfing @ 11.2mph. If I drain the pnp's to @ 3/4 to 1/2 full I was seeing about 3850-3900 rpm. I had a run in with a stick and the prop lost. While I had it down @performanceprop in Hendersonville, TN I had them put in additional cup to @ .150. Having done that I am now seeing @ a 200 rpm decrease with the same set up. The bad news with the 2773/.105 is that at 20 mph I was seeing @ 3800-3900 rpm from the paddle wheel which = @ on the 22 GPS. With the new cup in in the prop and empty, we were seeing about 23mph @ 3800ish yesterday. More tolerable, but barely. What are your numbers for the 2249 surfing? I was looking to gain some top end over the 2773. We are heading out on normal Wednesday session so I will fill ALL except the 850 to see what kind of numbers I get. BIG DISCLAIMER for my numbers. I boat on a river and the current was running 4mph yesterday. I will get data for both directions.

Edited July 29, 2019 by wdr

[eubanks]

43 minutes ago, wdr said:

I am running the 2773 15x13 ."105 cup", but I have yet to pull anyone wakeboarding. With full MLS, 570 pnps maxed, 850 sumo in the bow and wedge sitting normally between the 7 and 5 o'clock positions on the screen, I will see between 3900-4000 rpm surfing @ 11.2mph. If I drain the pnp's to @ 3/4 to 1/2 full I was seeing about 3850-3900 rpm. I had a run in with a stick and the prop lost. While I had it down @performanceprop in Hendersonville, TN I had them put in additional cup to @ .150. Having done that I am now seeing @ a 200 rpm decrease with the same set up. The bad news with the 2773/.105 is that at 20 mph I was seeing @ 3800-3900 rpm from the paddle wheel which = @ on the 22 GPS. With the new cup in in the prop and empty, we were seeing about 23mph @ 3800ish yesterday. More tolerable, but barely. What are your numbers for the 2249 surfing? I was looking to gain some top end over the 2773. We are heading out on normal Wednesday session so I will fill ALL except the 850 to see what kind of numbers I get. BIG DISCLAIMER for my numbers. I boat on a river and the current was running 4mph yesterday. I will get data for both directions.

Thanks @wdr.  I have been trying to wakeboard with all stock ballast full plus PNP and wedge 2-3 clicks from VERT.  We had 6 adults last week and a couple hundred lbs of lead.  With the M5 and 2249, RPM's surfing was totally dependent on wedge position.  Ramp was 3900 and more vert was around 4200.  Wakeboarding with ballast and wedge ran about 4500.  At 30 mph and no ballast I am running close to 5000.  I am willing to give up some additional top end to be able to run full stock ballast for surfing and wakeboarding.

[wdr]

25 minutes ago, eubanks said:

Thanks @wdr.  I have been trying to wakeboard with all stock ballast full plus PNP and wedge 2-3 clicks from VERT.  We had 6 adults last week and a couple hundred lbs of lead.  With the M5 and 2249, RPM's surfing was totally dependent on wedge position.  Ramp was 3900 and more vert was around 4200.  Wakeboarding with ballast and wedge ran about 4500.  At 30 mph and no ballast I am running close to 5000.  I am willing to give up some additional top end to be able to run full stock ballast for surfing and wakeboarding.

WOW. I guess I am not going to waste my money a 2249. I was running my back up 1235 (14.5x14.25) for 2 weeks and was seeing about the same numbers with @ 200 rpm higher surfing than I am now with a better top end. Weather permitting, I will get some good numbers for all on Wednesday from all of the wedge settings and from the LIFT mode. I haven't messed with the LM yet either. I believe the OM said from lift to deploy the wedge would move when @ 75% of the set speed was reached. 

[wdr]

You might see similar results from what I achieved by switching to a 2247 which is basically a 2249 with a .150 cup. The 2773 from "ACME" doesn't have a similar prop cup option. Instead of blowing $559 I figured if the .150 wasn't going to work for me I could always have the cup taken out for a lot cheaper. OJ makes 2, 15x13s but don't publish their cup specs. I would bet that they are .105 and .150.

[JeffK]

FWIW, I had the Acme 2315 (15x12) on mine and was very happy with it. 

[Brett B]

Eubanks, what octane fuel are you using? Malibu recommends 93 octane for the M5/M6 engines. If you are getting some knock due to low octane while running a heavy load then the ECU will pull timing which will kill your torque curve. An easy test would be to run 93 octane for a few tanks to see how it does. 

[wdr]

19 minutes ago, Brett B said:

Eubanks, what octane fuel are you using? Malibu recommends 93 octane for the M5/M6 engines. If you are getting some knock due to low octane while running a heavy load then the ECU will pull timing which will kill your torque curve. An easy test would be to run 93 octane for a few tanks to see how it does. 

I haven't been able to notice a difference between 89 and 93 except in my wallet. I haven't experienced any knock either, but we normally have just 2 adults, an extra 850 up front to level things out and hang in the torque producing area of 3800 rpm. I have a full tank of 89 in it now so I should have some results posted by this weekend.

[granddaddy55]

20 hours ago, eubanks said:

Thanks @wdr.  I have been trying to wakeboard with all stock ballast full plus PNP and wedge 2-3 clicks from VERT.  We had 6 adults last week and a couple hundred lbs of lead.  With the M5 and 2249, RPM's surfing was totally dependent on wedge position.  Ramp was 3900 and more vert was around 4200.  Wakeboarding with ballast and wedge ran about 4500.  At 30 mph and no ballast I am running close to 5000.  I am willing to give up some additional top end to be able to run full stock ballast for surfing and wakeboarding.

Wow , your propped down at a max “normal operating” rpm of 5000rpm for 30 mph snd can’t plane a big load?????,  something doesn’t sound right, sounds as if your slipping as in the post above AND since there are more torque options for prop I can’t imagine 27 -28 mph at 5000 as any performance I have ever heard of including an OJ945 on a 5.7 1.5/1 drive line ratio,  something doesn’t add up math wise 

was this cruise with 19 people in boat and no ballast ?  Math!

Edited July 30, 2019 by granddaddy55

[eubanks]

2 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

was this cruise with 19 people in boat and no ballast ?  Math!

11 people and less than 25% ballast.  I've been running 93 with every tank.  I need to get you guys a video of the tach and takeoff so you can see what I am seeing.

[wdr]

3 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

Wow , your propped down at a max “normal operating” rpm of 5000rpm for 30 mph snd can’t plane a big load?????,  something doesn’t sound right, sounds as if your slipping as in the post above AND since there are more torque options for prop I can’t imagine 27 -28 mph at 5000 as any performance I have ever heard of including an OJ945 on a 5.7 1.5/1 drive line ratio,  something doesn’t add up math wise 

was this cruise with 19 people in boat and no ballast ?  Math!

So I asked the shop manager about the delta between my lighter and supposedly more gutless 2010, 350 with the 1.5:1 ratio and 1235 prop and my heavier (I get it, what 600lbs or so) nearly 50hp more and I am guessing probably 75lb ft of torque more with the 2773 prop difference. And I basically get its not your 350. I was  running nearly the same external bag weight in my 2010 with an 1100 surf side rear and a 750 bow and max wedge with NO issues @ 3250 rpm all day. I guess the new heavier hull and surfaces makes that much of a difference. Kind of a _rappy thing to say but, where I am at now makes me kind of hope that I somehow have a slipping trans that is do for a warranty replacement.

[eubanks]

13 minutes ago, wdr said:

So I asked the shop manager about the delta between my lighter and supposedly more gutless 2010, 350 with the 1.5:1 ratio and 1235 prop and my heavier (I get it, what 600lbs or so) nearly 50hp more and I am guessing probably 75lb ft of torque more with the 2773 prop difference. And I basically get its not your 350. I was  running nearly the same external bag weight in my 2010 with an 1100 surf side rear and a 750 bow and max wedge with NO issues @ 3250 rpm all day. I guess the new heavier hull and surfaces makes that much of a difference. Kind of a _rappy thing to say but, where I am at now makes me kind of hope that I somehow have a slipping trans that is do for a warranty replacement.

Interesting.  Have you run wakeboarding speeds yet with all stock ballast, PNP, and wedge yet?

[ahopkins22LSV]

15 minutes ago, wdr said:

So I asked the shop manager about the delta between my lighter and supposedly more gutless 2010, 350 with the 1.5:1 ratio and 1235 prop and my heavier (I get it, what 600lbs or so) nearly 50hp more and I am guessing probably 75lb ft of torque more with the 2773 prop difference. And I basically get its not your 350. I was  running nearly the same external bag weight in my 2010 with an 1100 surf side rear and a 750 bow and max wedge with NO issues @ 3250 rpm all day. I guess the new heavier hull and surfaces makes that much of a difference. Kind of a _rappy thing to say but, where I am at now makes me kind of hope that I somehow have a slipping trans that is do for a warranty replacement.

Were you listing your 2010?

[NWBU]

9 minutes ago, wdr said:

So I asked the shop manager about the delta between my lighter and supposedly more gutless 2010, 350 with the 1.5:1 ratio and 1235 prop and my heavier (I get it, what 600lbs or so) nearly 50hp more and I am guessing probably 75lb ft of torque more with the 2773 prop difference. And I basically get its not your 350. I was  running nearly the same external bag weight in my 2010 with an 1100 surf side rear and a 750 bow and max wedge with NO issues @ 3250 rpm all day. I guess the new heavier hull and surfaces makes that much of a difference. Kind of a _rappy thing to say but, where I am at now makes me kind of hope that I somehow have a slipping trans that is do for a warranty replacement.

I used to run a similar weight setup in my 2008 and the listed boats are a lot more efficient than surfgate boats so it’s hard to compare even with similar weighting. I never broke 3,000 and was usually around 2,800 RPMs with my 340/350.

Going to the Raptor 410 last year, I saw RPMs in 3,600-3,800 range and this year is 3,200-3,600 with the PCM 409. I ran quite a bit less ballast in the 2018 compared to my 2008, and in the 2019 I’m running fairly similar total extra ballast as in the 2008 (the stock ballast has obviously increased in the newer boats).

[ORMailbuboater]

As noted in another post from April 2nd.  The M5i and M6i recommendation from Malibu is 93 octane.   As mentioned above you could be seen a normal performance hit due to lower octane.   

Also think having the dealer check it out would be a good idea too.  You situation does not sound normal.  

 

[gregtay]

11 minutes ago, NWBU said:

I used to run a similar weight setup in my 2008 and the listed boats are a lot more efficient than surfgate boats so it’s hard to compare even with similar weighting. I never broke 3,000 and was usually around 2,800 RPMs with my 340/350.

Going to the Raptor 410 last year, I saw RPMs in 3,600-3,800 range and this year is 3,200-3,600 with the PCM 409. I ran quite a bit less ballast in the 2018 compared to my 2008, and in the 2019 I’m running fairly similar total extra ballast as in the 2008 (the stock ballast has obviously increased in the newer boats).

As another data point... my 08 23LSV with the 340 5.7 motor and GSA (so not listed) and full 800s in each locker turned 3300-3400 surfing with a fantastic wave. So even non-listed that hull/motor combo was really a sweet spot.

[wdr]

@eubanks doing that tomorrow full range of settings weather permitting. It won't be NASA quality data, but an honest run with the 2773 and the new .150 cup I had put on it. @ahopkinsVTX yes listed, but barely to keep the suck gate in the water. I

[ahopkins22LSV]

2 hours ago, NWBU said:

I used to run a similar weight setup in my 2008 and the listed boats are a lot more efficient than surfgate boats so it’s hard to compare even with similar weighting. I never broke 3,000 and was usually around 2,800 RPMs with my 340/350.

Going to the Raptor 410 last year, I saw RPMs in 3,600-3,800 range and this year is 3,200-3,600 with the PCM 409. I ran quite a bit less ballast in the 2018 compared to my 2008, and in the 2019 I’m running fairly similar total extra ballast as in the 2008 (the stock ballast has obviously increased in the newer boats).

This. The boats are night and day difference. You can’t compare the early generations to now. There have been multiple hull changes, wedge changes, surfgate changes, ballast changes, etc. all to get a better wave. It would be like comparing a mid 2000’s truck to a 2019 truck. Not even close!