Interesting Letter to Editor in Hartwell Lake News

[95echelon]

On 6/19/2019 at 6:52 AM, oldjeep said:

Probably.  I have a couple relatives that think it is OK to be a rope length from shore because that is where the glass is.  Smaller wake, but still illegal, irritating and dangerous.

 

Had a family friend's Father die from this. Came in too close to the dock and hit it. Wife was a neural surgeon and couldn't do anything to help him.

As for the normal topic, unfortunately it's down to enforcement. I have not had great luck with talking to people in a calm and friendly way, they get offended more often than not. Surfers on my lake just need to keep to the largest bay and not surf near the sandbar. 4 foot waves going through 50 sand anchored boats on the sandbar is what is going to get surfing banned (if anything). I would say that the music is the more common complaint. There is a mastercraft on my lake that blares 4 HLCD's at 9 am yanking tubes around.

The surf waves go above my dock and cause more erosion but I reinforced my sea wall to better handle the newer and larger surf boats. My kids love the waves when swimming or on floaties at least.

[Asmodeus2112]

Inevitable. More people, more boats, but not more lakes. Last place I like to be is on the lake on a weekend. Fun to watch from afar sometimes though...

[The Hulk]

 

[greg2vlx]

I’m just curious where all these riders are on Hartwell.  It’s rare I ever see anyone other than me behind a boat.  That’s not a complaint 😁

[ahopkins22LSV]

We have a sheriff on our lake every Saturday and Sunday. The lake association pays them to patrol, they actually keep the boat docked on the lake. The release statistics each year and it’s always 300+ warnings and less than 10 tickets. So you’d assume everyone is well behaved and I do think it helps, but I’ve seen jet skis jumping wakes right in front of them way too close to the other boat, people being dangerously cut off or passed. Sheriff right there and does nothing. I feel they need to write more tickets, might get the point across better. It’s so hard to see everything I understand that but I can’t imagine lakes that don’t have a standard patrol, especially if it is a busy lake.

[minnmarker]

It's happening in Minnesota now.  We all best stay away from shorelines.  We are in the minority after all.  Behave and be sensitive to others out there.

http://www.fox9.com/news/citing-massive-wakes-chanhassen-residents-seek-restrictions-on-special-boats

[TC_2006_VLX]

In the Fox broadcast the property owner complained about falling off their dock and being bruised. I call total BS on that as those were not floating docks she was standing on... and even big rollers next to her dock shouldnt cause her to fall off the dock. I think that might be the vast amount of white claws she pounded rather than those darn wake boats!

Are they going to ban fishing now that it was spread zebra mussels into lakes which cause significant damage as well? 

[RyanB]

49 minutes ago, TC_2006_VLX said:

 

Are they going to ban fishing now that it was spread zebra mussels into lakes which cause significant damage as well? 

That is being blamed (at least mostly) on ballast boats around here.....

[theloungelife]

This all makes me feel lucky in Utah.  Almost all our lakes are state reservoirs with no cabins or docks on the shore.  Sure we can't fulfill a dream of a lake house and have to pull the boat out at the end of every session, but still feels like a simpler equation overall.

I do wish there was an effective manner to promote better boater education.  Whether it's being too close to other boats, power turns, or other mishaps, I believe most don't know edicate because they've never been told.  Yelling at them on the lake doesn't solve it either.  Communities like this forum do a ton, and I know some dealers are trying to be more full service in this aspect, but I'd love to see more progress here.

[95echelon]

29 minutes ago, RyanB said:

That is being blamed (at least mostly) on ballast boats around here.....

Funny because in Michigan most of our lakes were infested before ballast was a thing on inland lakes. It was all types of boats and trailers dragging them out of Lake Michigan and into other pleasure boating lakes. I have also read articles with evidence of mussels being moved to completely remote bodies of water through waterfowl.

There is no getting around it, the mussels will be in most bodies of water in 50 years; and last time I tried to steam clean a seagull the DNR wasn't pleased.

[RyanB]

5 minutes ago, 95echelon said:

Funny because in Michigan most of our lakes were infested before ballast was a thing on inland lakes. It was all types of boats and trailers dragging them out of Lake Michigan and into other pleasure boating lakes. I have also read articles with evidence of mussels being moved to completely remote bodies of water through waterfowl.

There is no getting around it, the mussels will be in most bodies of water in 50 years; and last time I tried to steam clean a seagull the DNR wasn't pleased.

Going off topic, but in the grand scheme of things, risk of transfer from a fishing boat is much less than a ballast boat where you can't drain the ballast completely and you can't see inside of the tanks.

I'd love to see the articles of mussels transported by waterfowl.  Because I have never seen them.

I do agree that for the most part infection in almost all lakes is inevitable.  Colorado is spending millions to prevent it, but I am sure it is a losing battle and will only delay the inevitable.  

[ahopkins22LSV]

1 hour ago, RyanB said:

Going off topic, but in the grand scheme of things, risk of transfer from a fishing boat is much less than a ballast boat where you can't drain the ballast completely and you can't see inside of the tanks.

I'd love to see the articles of mussels transported by waterfowl.  Because I have never seen them.

I do agree that for the most part infection in almost all lakes is inevitable.  Colorado is spending millions to prevent it, but I am sure it is a losing battle and will only delay the inevitable.  

It’s not a zebra mussel but snails can survive an unwanted 5 hour journey through a duck.. who knows what else can.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0032292

[95echelon]

Looking into things I was off on the spread of zebra mussels. Birds do not move many velligers at all in lab tests.

Back on topic I don't know what the outcome will be on surf boats. on lake Minnetonka specifically cabin cruisers can put out the same wake. On smaller lakes it's tough. I know when jet-ski's hit a lot of lakes wanted to ban them. i doubt all folks will self enforce and be courteous, so my guess is that this stuff happens lake by lake. To think ten years ago people were worried about the legality of surfing! 

Now that my lake is up from rains it's hard for my seawall to handle surf waves from medium weighted 21 foot boats. Sacked out G23's are coming up to my fire pit on occasion, so who knows what a 25LSV or an Ri257 would do fully weighted. I am on an 850 acre lake and there are probably 30+ boats on it any given Saturday. I typically surf Mondays or right before Dark (my boat has lots of floodlights pointing at the rider and the wake), but plenty of people on the lake are buying surf boats and surfing all day. Most of them are too fat to surf without properly weighting their boat and buying a big guy board so most give up on surfing after a few tries.

A lake less busy and surf boats would really stand out.

[RyanB]

59 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

It’s not a zebra mussel but snails can survive an unwanted 5 hour journey through a duck.. who knows what else can.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0032292

There are way too many big words in that link. 

[ahopkins22LSV]

8 minutes ago, RyanB said:

There are way too many big words in that link. 

It’s a tough read lol. My dad geeks out over this stuff and talked to me for over and hour this weekend about it. Ironic timing, but they are discovering new stuff everyday so who knows how it really all gets transferred. 

To be back on topic, I 100% agree there needs to be a better boating educational system and course to pass. But I don’t see that happening anytime soon unfortunately.

[Sparky450]

I have often wondered when this would come up. I see videos of people are surfing and am appalled at how close to docks  people are surfing . We are very fortunate to be able ride in an area away from docks, houses etc.  I drop riders and turn around, or idle past docks in our area. And I see many people surf right past them with no worries. But these docks are my friends/neighbors/ and the people that I share the water with. Many times a day large cabin cruisers go down the channels where we surf. Talk about a ride. I almost got swamped by one a few years ago. 45' cabin cruiser plowing, 40' from me as we were changing riders. Then it was a documented boat with no way to ID it. It is my understanding that at least 5 rental boats came in with damage that day. If the water isn't to bad, I prefer to surf in the channel with the cargo ships. At that point my wake is non existent.

[Ifinallygota21v]

Facts people!  Uneducated people making rash decisions will kill wake sports

http://www.wsia.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Wave-Energy-Study-C.A.-Goudey-Assoc.-Final.pdf

 

[Sparky450]

14 minutes ago, Ifinallygota21v said:

Facts people!  Uneducated people making rash decisions will kill wake sports

http://www.wsia.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Wave-Energy-Study-C.A.-Goudey-Assoc.-Final.pdf

 

They talk about deep water and shallow water. Maybe I missed it, but do they ever give the depths that they consider deep water and shallow water?

[95echelon]

4 hours ago, Sparky450 said:

They talk about deep water and shallow water. Maybe I missed it, but do they ever give the depths that they consider deep water and shallow water?

They don't but I am assuming that deep would be more than 10 feet and from my experience past 10 or 12 feet the surf wave is pretty much the same (same wave at 10 feet as at 60 feet of depth).

Very interesting article. Although I don't think many lakes have a mile of fetch in the midwest RE: Wave action. So what I still wonder about is how the surf waves put water behind my seawall but wind waves very rarely do. I have just under a half mile of fetch to my seawall with a northerly wind.

[UWSkier]

1 hour ago, 95echelon said:

They don't but I am assuming that deep would be more than 10 feet and from my experience past 10 or 12 feet the surf wave is pretty much the same (same wave at 10 feet as at 60 feet of depth).

Very interesting article. Although I don't think many lakes have a mile of fetch in the midwest RE: Wave action. So what I still wonder about is how the surf waves put water behind my seawall but wind waves very rarely do. I have just under a half mile of fetch to my seawall with a northerly wind.

I find their findings on energy to be a little flawed.

A way to think of it is this.  Imagine you have a stuck door.  You can hit it and hit it and hit it with your hand until it's raw but it's not going anywhere.  Put a shoulder and some body weight into it though and it pops right open.

That's the difference between a powerful boat wave and incessant natural waves.  You can't simply add up the cumulative effect of all the individual waves and say it's doing the same amount of damage as one large wave of equivalent energy.

Edited June 26, 2019 by UWSkier

[Sparky450]

1 hour ago, UWSkier said:

I find their findings on energy to be a little flawed.

A way to think of it is this.  Imagine you have a stuck door.  You can hit it and hit it and hit it with your hand until it's raw but it's not going anywhere.  Put a shoulder and some body weight into it though and it pops right open.

That's the difference between a powerful boat wave and incessant natural waves.  You can't simply add up the cumulative effect of all the individual waves and say it's doing the same amount of damage as one large wave of equivalent energy.

I tend to agree with the findings. If I use air and blow sand at a constant pace it is constantly moving. If I use my hand and take a handful, it moves it all at once. But imagine that handful is only a few times a day during daylight. The air blows 24 hours a day.  Of course this is an exaggeration. I am just trying to make a point. I have a dock out in the delta. It is in no wake zone narrow and shallow. Very few boats go through this area at any speed. However during the winter months the wind constantly blows into it. I am seeing the erosion from wind first hand. The wind laps water on it 24 hours a day all winter. I feel the erosion is the same as out on the channel where we surf/wakeboard/ or have large cabin cruisers plowing.

I don't feel the door is an accurate comparison. The door is like a big rock(rip rap) Put body wait into rip rap and it will move as well. But the water doesn't move it.

And I have already said I am respectful with my waves

[Eagleboy99]

" Large ocean breakers churn up the shore more than small ones. More quantitatively, a wave is a displacement that is resisted by a restoring force. The larger the displacement x, the larger the force F = kx needed to create it. Because work W is related to force multiplied by distance (Fx) and energy is put into the wave by the work done to create it, the energy in a wave is related to amplitude. In fact, a wave’s energy is directly proportional to its amplitude squared because W ∝ Fx = kx2."

[UWSkier]

6 minutes ago, Sparky450 said:

I tend to agree with the findings. If I use air and blow sand at a constant pace it is constantly moving. If I use my hand and take a handful, it moves it all at once. But imagine that handful is only a few times a day during daylight. The air blows 24 hours a day.  Of course this is an exaggeration. I am just trying to make a point. I have a dock out in the delta. It is in no wake zone narrow and shallow. Very few boats go through this area at any speed. However during the winter months the wind constantly blows into it. I am seeing the erosion from wind first hand. The wind laps water on it 24 hours a day all winter. I feel the erosion is the same as out on the channel where we surf/wakeboard/ or have large cabin cruisers plowing.

I don't feel the door is an accurate comparison. The door is like a big rock(rip rap) Put body wait into rip rap and it will move as well. But the water doesn't move it.

And I have already said I am respectful with my waves

I'm not saying anyone on this forum is disrespectful with waves.  But physics is physics.  Energy is not a measure of big W Work.  Work being done is what actually results in shoreline erosion, not the energy exerted.  Work being done implies motion.  If you push on a wall with 1000 lbs of force but the wall doesn't move, you've done no Work.  If you push with 1001 lbs of force and it does move, you've done Work.

Edited June 27, 2019 by UWSkier

[Sparky450]

@UWSkier Sorry if I implied you were saying that we were not respectful. That was not my intention.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Sparky450

[BigCreek]

On 6/25/2019 at 2:04 PM, TC_2006_VLX said:

property owner complained about falling off their dock and being bruised.

I was wondering what she landed on to sustain such a terrible injury as a bruise. When I fall off my dock, the only thing that takes a hit is my ego (and the rest of my beer, and maybe some sunglasses).

Ballast assisted, wake generating boats are not new. She bought the house without recognizing what she was getting. She sounds like the people that got my local music amphitheater shut down. They built a neighborhood across the street from it, basically in the "path" of the concert sound, then complained non-stop that it was too loud. It worked. The venue owner had enough, gave up the fight and cashed out on the land. Now there's an IKEA and a TopGolf on that property instead.

Progress? Nope.