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7lazy77

Raptor 410 or 450?

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7lazy77
Posted (edited)

I know this has probably been beat to death, but I am having a hard time searching the forum to find answers to my questions.  This is a big purchase & I just want to make sure I get what is best for me.  I am looking at upgrading to a 2016-2017 LSV with either the Raptor 410 or 450.  From talking to several dealers, I get mixed answers on if a 410 would be enough engine at my altitude (4700').  We do about 70% surfing & 30% wakeboarding & generally have a crew or 2 adults & 3 kids, but that can go as much as 4 adults & 6 kids.  I know that typically "bigger is better" in these types of decisions....but I would like to know if I did find a that boat I had to have & it had a 410, would it work for me?  Or is this something that everybody would recommend going with the 450?

Edited by 7lazy77
sp

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TallRedRider

You can always prop down, but that will take away some top speed.  I rarely care about fast cruising speeds, so in my case, the 410 would be fine, and if I find it is lacking, I would put on a lower pitched prop to give the torque I need.    Many have posted that the torque difference between those 2 motors is greatly exaggerated, IIRC.  If you found one local or in SLC area would be ideal, so you could test it out yourself.  

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Pnwrider

There has been a lot of debate here on those two motors. Seems most don’t feel 450 is worth the $$$ to upgrade and would go straight to supercharged motor if buying new. Used would depend largely on pricing (ie if two boats are priced the same, get the bigger motor). 

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Chappy
6 hours ago, 7lazy77 said:

I know this has probably been beat to death, but I am having a hard time searching the forum to find answers to my questions.  This is a big purchase & I just want to make sure I get what is best for me.  I am looking at upgrading to a 2016-2017 LSV with either the Raptor 410 or 450.  From talking to several dealers, I get mixed answers on if a 410 would be enough engine at my altitude (4700').  We do about 70% surfing & 30% wakeboarding & generally have a crew or 2 adults & 3 kids, but that can go as much as 4 adults & 6 kids.  I know that typically "bigger is better" in these types of decisions....but I would like to know if I did find a that boat I had to have & it had a 410, would it work for me?  Or is this something that everybody would recommend going with the 450?

go with the 450

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SCMike

I have the 450 in my 2018 and the motor is a beast!  As @Pnwrider said, if the price difference is comparable or working a few K, I’d recommend going with the bigger motor.  You won’t regret it.  But, as @TallRedRider said, you can always prop down and make the 410 work.  The motor will definitely be working harder, but there aren’t really any reports of the 410 not working at that elevation that I can recall. 

Anyways, you can easily answer the question yourself by demoing both boats, which is highly recommend. 

 

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ORMailbuboater
22 hours ago, 7lazy77 said:

I know this has probably been beat to death, but I am having a hard time searching the forum to find answers to my questions.  This is a big purchase & I just want to make sure I get what is best for me.  I am looking at upgrading to a 2016-2017 LSV with either the Raptor 410 or 450.  From talking to several dealers, I get mixed answers on if a 410 would be enough engine at my altitude (4700').  We do about 70% surfing & 30% wakeboarding & generally have a crew or 2 adults & 3 kids, but that can go as much as 4 adults & 6 kids.  I know that typically "bigger is better" in these types of decisions....but I would like to know if I did find a that boat I had to have & it had a 410, would it work for me?  Or is this something that everybody would recommend going with the 450?

The only difference between the Raptor 410 and 450 is a software flash difference.    Most feel the 410 is sufficient.   You do get more power and torque from the 450 but....  When I talked with Malibu Rep he indicated that the Torque Curves between the 410 and 450 are identical to 3800 RPM.   Getting more torque at wake surfing RPM if below 3800 will not be there....    450 will have more top end but no difference below 3800 RPMs.    

Quoted Power Rating 

410  350hp   404tq     

450  400hp  430tq. 

Now on the used market I cannot think the premium for the 450 over the 410 is going to be as much as the original $7500 MSRP upgrade price.  Other options will play into price.  

Suggested as others have.  Demo both if you can.  I opted for the 575.  Much more HP & Tq.  530hp 575tq  Very different torque and HP curves.  

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7lazy77
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ORMailbuboater said:

The only difference between the Raptor 410 and 450 is a software flash difference.    Most feel the 410 is sufficient.   You do get more power and torque from the 450 but....  When I talked with Malibu Rep he indicated that the Torque Curves between the 410 and 450 are identical to 3800 RPM.   Getting more torque at wake surfing RPM if below 3800 will not be there....    450 will have more top end but no difference below 3800 RPMs.    

Quoted Power Rating 

410  350hp   404tq     

450  400hp  430tq. 

Now on the used market I cannot think the premium for the 450 over the 410 is going to be as much as the original $7500 MSRP upgrade price.  Other options will play into price.  

Suggested as others have.  Demo both if you can.  I opted for the 575.  Much more HP & Tq.  530hp 575tq  Very different torque and HP curves.  

Thanks a bunch....good info & I sure appreciate your response!

So if I understand this correctly, the old LS3 motor had more horsepower (427) than the new 450?

Edited by 7lazy77

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ORMailbuboater
2 hours ago, 7lazy77 said:

So if I understand this correctly, the old LS3 motor had more horsepower (427) than the new 450?

Malibu Marketed the 2015 LS3 as 450hp.     That is open to an entire different debate which I will not get into.  You can read that at link below.  450 Raptor motor is now sort of based off the 430 torque figure.   

 

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JeffC
Posted (edited)

I struggled with this when I ordered my 2017 22 VLX.     SOMEWHERE on this site there is a discussion, including graphics of the torque curves of the two motors.   As ORMalibuBoater pointed out (and those graphics will confirm), the torque curves lay pretty much on top of each other up to 3800 RPM.  After that, the 450 definitely separates.   Because of that, I decided the 450 was not worth the price premium to ME...  But I have a smaller lighter boat, but a bit more elevation technically.    Having said that, if price is not the issue, more power is always better.   If I could have stomached the $$ for the 575, I would have done it in a heartbeat.  Unfortunately, budget reality is not that simplistic.

I am at 5100 elevation, with the 2279 torque prop.   With all the hard tanks full, and the 550# bags 75-80% full, and crew of 6-8 I get a great wave at 3800-4000 RPM at 10.5-10.8 mph.   Less crew, I put more weight in the rears.   More crew, I start taking it down so that I dont consistently need over 4K RPM.   Rough water will challenge that as well, requiring more RPM to maintain speed.  Generally, I dont like to run it that hard for any length of time.    To be fair, I really have no idea if that is a REAL issue.   

Fully drained, my top end is in the 36-38 mph range.   When I first bought the boat, that seemed very slow (I came from an 18' Crownline IO with a 5.7L that trimmed out would touch 50).  It bothered me.  Thought about re-propping it, but after a while, top end just didnt seem like an issue to me, and the torque prop seemed to be the right tool for surfing at my altitude.   Top end doesnt bother me at ALL anymore,  in fact I find myself cruising more around 25mph for a softer ride for the crew, and to save gas for more surf time (yes, I can and have burned an entire tank in a day). 

Ill see if I can find the thread with the torque info in it... if I can, Ill post the link.

>>>> EDIT

HA!   Turns out the thread that I liked so much was @ORMailbuboaters thread...   It is here... some of the graphics didnt survive, but there is still a TON of good info in there.

 

 

Edited by JeffC

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