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Dfowkes

2019 Malibu 25LSV maiden voyage

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Hyperryd

Great looking boat!!  It looks like your board racks will do the bug catching for you in those pics.  Don't want to get too spoiled!  Congrats.

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23LSVOwner
On 2/23/2019 at 3:23 PM, hethj7 said:

Looks like the new boats are showing 15 volts when running.   I know low voltage was a concern for a few years.  I wonder if they upped the alternators and how accurate the readout actually is.  

Yep. Readout is showing what the engine ECM is seeing.

 

115 Amp alternator that reaches max amperage roughly 2K RPM sooner than the factory 95 amp alts everyone else is using.

 

I heard rumors that a bigger alternator option may be coming for 2020.

 

12 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

Realistically.... I’d just check it with a voltmeter at the battery, and see if that is what it is actually getting.

1- on average, the voltage drop from the battery to the screen is going to be .3-.5 volts, so that means your batteries could be receiving upwards of 15.5 volts. Batteries don’t like being overcharged by that much. It’s best to be charging them with no more than 2 volts over their rating (2.1v per cell X 6 cells- 12.6 volts). This is why you almost always see a charging system voltage between 13.8-14.4 volts.

2- it’s possible they have slightly compensated the screen reading...... They might have it slightly offset to compensate for the normal voltage drops through the circuit. The actual charge voltage might be a touch under 15v, and be low enough to prevent issues.

Voltage at the battery is usually a bit lower than what you see at the dash. The dash is showing ECM voltage.

Edited by 23LSVOwner

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TenTwentyOne
1 hour ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Yep. Readout is showing what the engine ECM is seeing.

 

115 Amp alternator that reaches max amperage roughly 2K RPM sooner than the factory 95 amp alts everyone else is using.

 

I heard rumors that a bigger alternator option may be coming for 2020.

 

Voltage at the battery is usually a bit lower than what you see at the dash. The dash is showing ECM voltage.

Bigger alternator does not mean higher charging voltage. Unless you are exceeding its amperage capability at the time you measure. Either way, it doesn’t matter if it’s a 50amp, or 5,000,000 amp alternator. If it is operating properly, it should have a charging voltage of 14.4 or less.

 

You are are right about the dash showing ECM voltage. However, ECM voltage in a boat (and in most cars, depending on the layout of the ECM circuit), will be lower than battery voltage. There is no way to avoid the added circuit resistance from the extra distance that the circuit travels, and the added resistance of associated switch/relays in the circuit. 

The only way the dash would be reading higher than battery voltage, would be if the screen was coded to read a higher reading than it was actually receiving on the canbus.

Edited by TenTwentyOne

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23LSVOwner
3 minutes ago, TenTwentyOne said:

Bigger alternator does not mean higher charging voltage. Unless you are exceeding its amperage capability at the time you measure. Either way, it doesn’t matter if it’s a 50amp, or 5,000,000 amp alternator. If it is operating properly, it should have a charging voltage of 14.4 or less.

 

You are are right about the dash showing ECM voltage. However, ECM voltage in a boat (and in most cars, depending on the layout of the ECM circuit), will be lower than battery voltage. There is no way to avoid the added circuit resistance from the extra distance that the circuit travels, and the added resistance of associated switch/relays in the circuit. 

The only way the dash would be reading higher than battery voltage, would be if the screen was coded to read a higher reading than it was actually receiving on the canbus.

Pardon me for not stating that the regulator is set for a higher charging voltage. As it was stated earlier in the thread I didn't think it was necessary to restate it again.........

 

The ECM voltage is higher in the boat.

 

Measure for yourself.

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TenTwentyOne
13 minutes ago, 23LSVOwner said:

The ECM voltage is higher in the boat.

 

Measure for yourself.

I mean...... I have measured it before. In cars, and in boats. First thing you ever do when diagnosing a PCM/ECM/ECU/PDM issue, is perform voltage drop tests on both the B+, and B- side of the ECM circuit, at the ECM. Not ONE single time have I ever had a 0 reading, or a negative reading. The reading is ALWAYS between .2v and .5v (Which is normal).

If Malibu has somehow figured out a way to defy Ohm’s law, and the unavoidable circuit resistance that will cause voltage drop in any circuit....... I am sure there is a crapload of electrical engineers that would like to know how. I don’t want to get too excited yet, but you, 23LSVOwner, may have just revolutionized electrical system design forever......

 

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23LSVOwner
5 minutes ago, TenTwentyOne said:

I mean...... I have measured it before. In cars, and in boats. First thing you ever do when diagnosing a PCM/ECM/ECU/PDM issue, is perform voltage drop tests on both the B+, and B- side of the ECM circuit, at the ECM. Not ONE single time have I ever had a 0 reading, or a negative reading. The reading is ALWAYS between .2v and .5v (Which is normal).

If Malibu has somehow figured out a way to defy Ohm’s law, and the unavoidable circuit resistance that will cause voltage drop in any circuit....... I am sure there is a crapload of electrical engineers that would like to know how. I don’t want to get too excited yet, but you, 23LSVOwner, may have just revolutionized electrical system design forever......

 

Think about the part in bold.

 

Think about the circuits in the boat as well as the proximity to the charging sources.

 

Think about voltage drop at the batteries while they are being charged.

 

I'll not reply back because you have decided to delve into the smarta$$ category. I enjoy constructive talk. I'll not waste my time on smarta$$es.

Edited by 23LSVOwner

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Dfowkes
13 hours ago, bbattiste247 said:


Are you doing break-in according to the owner's manual?  I am at 6 hours in my 2019 25 lsv and haven't put in full ballast yet, but I am dying to though. It has been a little colder than usual in Las Vegas, so we haven't had the opportunity to break it in completely yet. I have been pulling mine with a Nissan Titan and it seems to do fine, but I am thinking of trading it in for a 100k miles diesel for the long hauls. 

Also, is the flooring a custom job from gatorstep? Where did you get the flooring to stick on the sides below the seating? I would like to put some flooring there too.

Custom Gatorstep.  I would call Gatorstep, I'm sure they saved the template.  Jeremy form Active Water Sports set it up for me. 

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TallRedRider

Yes, the voltage regulator in this alternator is set higher than usual, as I was told by the dealer.  

I will be interested to measure the voltage at the batteries, which is the only part that concerns me about the increased voltage.  Maybe now that the batteries are located  somewhere around 20+ feet of wire away from the alternator, it will not be so elevated by the time it gets there.  My understanding of electricity is that if the wire is big enough, there  won't be much drop at all, so I am still concerned.  

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inlandlaker
4 minutes ago, TallRedRider said:

Yes, the voltage regulator in this alternator is set higher than usual, as I was told by the dealer.  

I will be interested to measure the voltage at the batteries, which is the only part that concerns me about the increased voltage.  Maybe now that the batteries are located  somewhere around 20+ feet of wire away from the alternator, it will not be so elevated by the time it gets there.  My understanding of electricity is that if the wire is big enough, there  won't be much drop at all, so I am still concerned.  

This is generally true.  You have to upsize the wire to mitigate voltage drop, as I understand it.  That said, though, the distance in our boats isn't that much to incur tremendous load drop, but I'm not an electrician so take all of that with a grain of salt.

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NWBU
13 hours ago, bbattiste247 said:


Are you doing break-in according to the owner's manual?  I am at 6 hours in my 2019 25 lsv and haven't put in full ballast yet, but I am dying to though. It has been a little colder than usual in Las Vegas, so we haven't had the opportunity to break it in completely yet. I have been pulling mine with a Nissan Titan and it seems to do fine, but I am thinking of trading it in for a 100k miles diesel for the long hauls. 

Also, is the flooring a custom job from gatorstep? Where did you get the flooring to stick on the sides below the seating? I would like to put some flooring there too.

@UpperleftWake can help you out here.

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TenTwentyOne
1 hour ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Think about the part in bold.

 

Think about the circuits in the boat as well as the proximity to the charging sources.

 

Think about voltage drop at the batteries while they are being charged.

 

I'll not reply back because you have decided to delve into the smarta$$ category. I enjoy constructive talk. I'll not waste my time on smarta$$es.

You are right, I should have avoided being a smarta$$. Sorry about that.

That said, I do know the layout of the ECM circuit, and I have had more than 1000 hours of training in 12v electrical systems. Admittedly, it has been quite a few years since I was applying my college education, and subsequent classes/education on a daily basis....... However, I haven’t yet forgotten it.

 

I do realize that the ECM is close to the alternator, and the batteries are further away.... but because of the layout of our marine electrical system, the current doesn’t travel that short path from the alternator to ECM. It travels from the alternator, to the battery switch first. Then from there, it goes through the IGN circuit breaker, to the ignition relay(or switch, depending on the setup), to the ignition buss bar, through the ECM circuit breaker, through small gauge wire all the way back to the ECM, back out of the ECM, then to the engine grounds buss bar, then all the way back to the battery. The circuit path is much, much longer, and encounters a fair amount more resistance through the 10x length of wire it travels through, and the addition of slight resistances in the breakers/switches/ECU that it travels through.

i have had to test this sort of thing countless times in the real world, and the outcome doesn’t change.... 

 

and @23LSVOwner - Who really went smarta$$ first?? Do you remember your “pardon me for not....” comment? That was what put me in that mode.....

 

Edited by TenTwentyOne

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TenTwentyOne
14 minutes ago, inlandlaker said:

This is generally true.  You have to upsize the wire to mitigate voltage drop, as I understand it.  That said, though, the distance in our boats isn't that much to incur tremendous load drop, but I'm not an electrician so take all of that with a grain of salt.

It’s definitely true. Bigger the wire, lower the voltage drop.

generally, you are experiencing very little drop in those big battery cables. Almost none (Which is also a supporting reason for my disagreement with 23 on the comparative voltages)

The reason for this, is that those cables are sized for their largest draw (while cranking the engine). During cranking you will see a substantial voltage drop in your battery cables, but while under normal operation, those cables are only handling less than 1/4 often only about 1/10th of the amperage they are sized to handle. The voltage drop under those conditions is minimal.

Edited by TenTwentyOne

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COOP

Tentwentyone is correct. The voltage drop is minimal, under 1%, probably under less than .75%.

We noticed these higher voltages as well. Our techs a bit concerned, but not overly. Havent had a chance yet to measure voltage at various locations in the boat.

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TenTwentyOne

Just to satisfy my own curiosity on the exact difference in my boat, I dug out the DVOM and went down and measured the voltage difference, and the voltage drop. Not a BU, but both brands do use the same ECM (Econtrols), and a very similar circuit arrangement (Fundementals of the ECM power circuit are identical)

B+ voltage at battery switch lug that the chargeback wire is connected to (0 point with engine off)- 11.75v

Battery voltage- 11.83v

Indicated ECM voltage at screen- 11.3v

actual ecm voltage at the ecm connector- 11.35v

test performed with all lighting, ignition, screens, seat heaters, and heater on....... Stereo off, because that could create fluctuations.

 

i used the chargeback lug at the battery switch as the zero point, because the engine was not running. If it was running, this location becomes the location with the highest voltage potential for downstream tests. This location gives an accurate start point to test downstream voltage drop for the other 2 circuits, because it is the closest intersection point for the two circuits.  

The amount of stuff in the ECM circuit does add up....

Getting about a .5v differential. Which is fairly typical.

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martinarcher
On 2/23/2019 at 1:25 AM, Dfowkes said:

These are a repost of the surf wave from a demo at AWS of my boat. @NWBU posted them earlier 

D755EDF4-6FE9-470D-9E48-D23F412B25DC.jpeg

AF53F192-F9BC-4D42-84F9-D3D46F5A1FBD.jpeg

Man, just added a new item to the bucket list...that looks so fun!!

-surf a slammed 25LSV.

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Dfowkes
18 minutes ago, martinarcher said:

Man, just added a new item to the bucket list...that looks so fun!!

-surf a slammed 25LSV.

Let me know when you want a pull.  

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bbattiste247
Posted (edited)

This isn't our maiden voyage, but only our third time out in our brand new 25 lsv with only 6 hours on it. Just as we pulled out of the wakeless speed area and started to our destination, the boat shut down and the engine temp was over 200. Fortunately, another Malibu saw us in distress and towed us in. 

20190303_131340_1551647700416_001.thumb.jpg.6861a830e983a7c143891d138cb9d784.jpg

IMG_6460_1548643143548.jpg

Edited by bbattiste247

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Dfowkes

Was there an error code?

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bbattiste247
32 minutes ago, Dfowkes said:

Was there an error code?

Yes, a couple of them, but I didn't pay attention to them because we kept getting blown towards the docks. I'd have to start it up and move back out towards the middle of the lake causing the temp to keep going up. Hopefully, it didn't cause any long term damage.

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Dfowkes

I would bet it is an impeller problem. Was the boat ever started outside the water by accident? 

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hethj7
28 minutes ago, bbattiste247 said:

Yes, a couple of them, but I didn't pay attention to them because we kept getting blown towards the docks. I'd have to start it up and move back out towards the middle of the lake causing the temp to keep going up. Hopefully, it didn't cause any long term damage.

You couldn’t just have it running next to the dock to see without moving?   Sorry to see this.  Hope it turns out to be something simple and dealer gets you going again quickly.  

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bbattiste247
21 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

You couldn’t just have it running next to the dock to see without moving?   Sorry to see this.  Hope it turns out to be something simple and dealer gets you going again quickly.  

No, the temp just kept going up even at idle, so I had to keep shutting it off. Yes, Boulder Boats will have us out on the water again soon. 

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The Hulk

Do the 19s or new engines  have block temp sensor ? or still just water temp reading only? If 200 on water sensor, then block is way hotter than 200 and sooner than water registers 200.

Did u have a strainer? Could be clogged, minimal or no flow maybe. 

IMO not enough fail safes on these things for the prices

1. Flow sensor, to warn u if no or too little water flow, clogged, strainer, broken impeller etc..

2. 200 deg block sensor.

It's 2019 and still pointless for $100 protection on a 150k boat... 

Good luck hope u get back on water ASAP! 

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skurfer
Posted (edited)

My guess is not enough coolant. What does your coolant reservoir look like? Do you have a heater? 

Edited by skurfer

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shawndoggy
1 hour ago, The Hulk said:

Do the 19s or new engines  have block temp sensor ? or still just water temp reading only? If 200 on water sensor, then block is way hotter than 200 and sooner than water registers 200.

Did u have a strainer? Could be clogged, minimal or no flow maybe. 

IMO not enough fail safes on these things for the prices

1. Flow sensor, to warn u if no or too little water flow, clogged, strainer, broken impeller etc..

2. 200 deg block sensor.

It's 2019 and still pointless for $100 protection on a 150k boat... 

Good luck hope u get back on water ASAP! 

You know your new boat has closed cooling right?

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