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Gearguy911

‘19 A22 409 vs 450 engine

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Gearguy911

Hey all! Putting in an order for a 19 A22 and am wondering if there is really a big difference between these engines? To me, 11 hp difference doesn’t seem like enough to justify 5000 extra bux. (If I’m understanding that right? 363 vs 374 Hp?)

im in Colorado front range as well, so altitude is around 5280’ , is this high enough that it would justify the bigger engine? Either way would be getting the high altitude prop.

 

thanks for the help!

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ahopkinsVTX

My shoot from the hip answer is 450 for sure because of your elevation. But, what transmission and prop comes with each? I assume you are ordering through Tommy's? If so I would imagine they have customers out here that can provide feedback on the engines as well.

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Gearguy911
9 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

My shoot from the hip answer is 450 for sure because of your elevation. But, what transmission and prop comes with each? I assume you are ordering through Tommy's? If so I would imagine they have customers out here that can provide feedback on the engines as well.

Yea it’s Tommys, they told me go with 450, but unsure if it’s just for sales. Installing the high altitude prob for sure. Question is the 450 noticeably more powerful? Trying to find someone with one but. I demoed a T22 out in Colorado lakes, last year with a 409 and we had 11 people at one point. Boat stuggled to plane on one or two starts from my recollection.

If I do pick up the bigger engine, I want to know that my $5k will feel the upgrade.

I didn’t see any options for transmission. This is what the build sheet shows 

“High Altitude/Torque - 15 x 13 - 2773 Monsoon 410 60L CAT”

 

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ahopkinsVTX

I don’t think they are just saying that for sales for what it’s worth. You may not have a transmission option per say but Malibu may pair different transmissions with the different engines. I’d ask for what ratio each transmission is for the 409 and 450. They should be able to easily tell you that. Also, @shawndoggy has a T22 with the 450 in it and boats at similar elevation so he should be able to help more than me :)

Edited by ahopkinsVTX

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st22eve
4 hours ago, Gearguy911 said:

Hey all! Putting in an order for a 19 A22 and am wondering if there is really a big difference between these engines? To me, 11 hp difference doesn’t seem like enough to justify 5000 extra bux. (If I’m understanding that right? 363 vs 374 Hp?)

im in Colorado front range as well, so altitude is around 5280’ , is this high enough that it would justify the bigger engine? Either way would be getting the high altitude prop.

 

thanks for the help!

What is the difference in price between a A22 and A24? Is it much more than 5k? With that boat you get the 17" prop and a 2:1 transmission.

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Gearguy911
12 hours ago, st22eve said:

What is the difference in price between a A22 and A24? Is it much more than 5k? With that boat you get the 17" prop and a 2:1 transmission.

I think it might be a $10k base upcharge for the 24. However, I asked Tommy’s what gear ratio comes with the 450, and they said 

“2:1. We order them with the highest ratio being in Colorado.”

so not sure if that is specific to the 450, or if it is optional to choose? I didn’t see the option when building it, and the spec on an  the A22 from boating magazine test says 1.78:1 ratio with a 409 engine.

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NWBU

I know the A24 comes with the 2:1 transmission standard for both the 409 and 450 engines, and agree you'd want the 450 at your elevations. I'm not sure about the A22 ratio with the 450.

The base A24 cost is $7700 more than the A22.

Edited by NWBU

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Gearguy911
3 hours ago, NWBU said:

I know the A24 comes with the 2:1 transmission standard for both the 409 and 450 engines, and agree you'd want the 450 at your elevations. I'm not sure about the A22 ratio with the 450.

The base A24 cost is $7700 more than the A22.

Thanks for the info! I told the dealer to bump me to the 450. Seems like a nice consensus here on that. 

There seems to maybe be an option at spec out on what ratio to choose? So hopefully it is coming with the 2:1 ratio as well.

 

 

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ahopkinsVTX
4 minutes ago, Gearguy911 said:

Thanks for the info! I told the dealer to bump me to the 450. Seems like a nice consensus here on that. 

There seems to maybe be an option at spec out on what ratio to choose? So hopefully it is coming with the 2:1 ratio as well.

 

 

The only boat I am aware of that has a transmission option is the VTX. But what we are trying to saying malibu may pair a certain transmission with the 409 and then a different ratio transmission with the 450. This is pretty common as they try to maximize the performance of each engine. 

Edited by ahopkinsVTX

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Gearguy911
34 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

The only boat I am aware of that has a transmission option is the VTX. But what we are trying to saying malibu may pair a certain transmission with the 409 and then a different ratio transmission with the 450. This is pretty common as they try to maximize the performance of each engine. 

Ah ok. I will clarify with the dealer what transmission is with the 409, and with the 450 and report back!

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daylorb

I got my A24 with the 409, but the torque on it with the 2:1 and 17 is pretty amazing.  That said - you'll forever doubt your decision if you don't go 450, the resale will be higher/easier as well so I'd do it for $5K.

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IXFE

You’re not gonna find a 2:1 in an A22.  It sure what Tommy is smoking on that one...

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shawndoggy

I wouldn't pay $5K for 13hp.   I do have the 450 in my T22, but only because in 2016 you couldn't get the 1.72 tranny on the 409.

If you are worried about the boat getting it done with the 409, I don't see how a 3% bump in HP is going to push you over the edge.

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boardjnky4

Power Wedge III, new for 2019 with 5° more lift, would probably be a more noticeable upgrade than the motor.

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Gearguy911

Got the numbers from Tommys on the motors:

409 has the 1.78:1 

450 Has the 1.75:1

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boardjnky4

So you're going to gain HP/TQ, but get higher gearing? That doesn't make sense.

Did you get Power Wedge 3?

Edited by boardjnky4

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Gearguy911
1 minute ago, boardjnky4 said:

So you're going to gain HP/TQ, but get higher gearing? That doesn't make sense.

Did you get Power Wedge 3?

Yea I got the Power Wedge 3 as well.

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Brantb

Not a perfect comparison, but i have an A20 that i run on Boyd Lake with the 409 and non high elevation prop and it does fine. Not the best hole shot, but we have wake boarded with 4-5 people (3 adults, 2 kids that would equal a small adult) in the boat with stock ballast and it was fine. Not sure how much of a difference the high alt prop makes, but it might be enough to overcome extra ballast and weight of the two extra feet.

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boardjnky4
Just now, Gearguy911 said:

Yea I got the Power Wedge 3 as well.

It has more lift this year vs the T22 you tested last year.

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Gearguy911

It is also likely I could be running with up to 12 people, and ballast. So pretty heavy in my max setup. I had them upgrade the motor already based on the earlier posts in this thread. 

Hopefully I should notice some difference! 

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shawndoggy

I very much doubt you will notice a difference.  3% is nothing.  Also remember that the 450 requires 93 octane to make that number, vs all the other PCM motors that are rated on 87.

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Gearguy911
59 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

I very much doubt you will notice a difference.  3% is nothing.  Also remember that the 450 requires 93 octane to make that number, vs all the other PCM motors that are rated on 87.

@shawndoggyHave you ever driven a T22 with the 409 instead of the 450 that you have now? Do you have the 2773 torque prop as well?

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boardjnky4

The 450 requires 91/93? No way I’d do that.

I thought only the supercharged engine required premium.

Edited by boardjnky4

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shawndoggy
48 minutes ago, Gearguy911 said:

@shawndoggyHave you ever driven a T22 with the 409 instead of the 450 that you have now? Do you have the 2773 torque prop as well?

Not a T22, no.  An A24 yes.  But a 2016 A24, which means it had the 1.5 tranny.  That boat did fine on a demo with a light crew at 4,500.  Not sure on the prop, but it wasn't that aggressive.  My guess would be 2249 (not aggressive at all on a 1.5 trans)

2773 is way too much prop for my purposes.  I've run 2249 (14.25" pitch) and 2279 (15.75" pitch).  The 2279 is our current go-to prop at 4000'.  If we go higher I'll put the 2249 on.  

I've also run an acme 2391 for a few days.  It resulted in crazy revs and lots of fuel burn.  

What is your primary use?  11 people in a T22 is misery (and a lot of weight for a smaller boat).  I'd assume the same with A22.  With that many people, no matter the prop, you are gonna need the fatties up front.  You will also have the advantange of PWIII, which I don't have.

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Gearguy911
1 hour ago, shawndoggy said:

 

2773 is way too much prop for my purposes.  I've run 2249 (14.25" pitch) and 2279 (15.75" pitch).  The 2279 is our current go-to prop at 4000'.  If we go higher I'll put the 2249 on.  

I've also run an acme 2391 for a few days.  It resulted in crazy revs and lots of fuel burn.  

 

I did a HP loss calculation and at 5300’ and 374 HP engine, results in 59 HP lost.

seems crazy, and I can see why some here are saying “every little bit helps” when ur up this high. Malibu Spec’s the 2773 for high alt/touque on the A22. Based on what you have said, that prop sounds quite aggressive. Or do you think that prop will be good with that engine where I’m at?

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