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IXFE

New video... 25 LSV vs. G23

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IXFE

So I’ve been in Vegas all week for work. Today my dealer calls and says my new 25 LSV arrived!  Excited, I start poking around social media and come across THIS!!

Finally some objective data on surf waves (best I’ve seen anyway)...

EDIT: click the blue box and it will play

 

 

Edited by IXFE

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Pnwrider

Just to play devils advocate, can we really say it’s objective when we don’t know the plug and play setups on all involved boats? “Stock ballast” is pretty vague. I could take that to mean no pnp bags since I had to buy those aftermarket. Somebody always has an agenda. Just so happens the Malibu/axis won on all the side by side comparisons? Or are there more videos coming out in which they lose a few? 

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IXFE
11 minutes ago, Pnwrider said:

Just to play devils advocate, can we really say it’s objective when we don’t know the plug and play setups on all involved boats? “Stock ballast” is pretty vague. I could take that to mean no pnp bags since I had to buy those aftermarket. Somebody always has an agenda. Just so happens the Malibu/axis won on all the side by side comparisons? Or are there more videos coming out in which they lose a few? 

I went and looked up the organization that did the tests. They posted their methodology. 

https://www.guinnpartners.com/boat-testing/

It’s a good read... Here’s what you want to know...

”All boats tested with factory presets or factory recommended settings including Ballast & Surf System.  No extra ballast was added to the boats. If Plug N Play was an available option and installed at the factory, then the recommended sacks where connected and utilized.”

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The Hulk
42 minutes ago, IXFE said:

So I’ve been in Vegas all week for work. Today my dealer calls and says my new 25 LSV arrived!  Excited, I start poking around social media and come across THIS!!

Finally some objective data on surf waves (best I’ve seen anyway)...

EDIT: click the blue box and it will play

 

 

Finally a way to show those g lovers! Either boat seems heavily loaded and hardly any ppl.. note swim platform...

throw another 1k lbs in that 25 and see what happens! No comparison. I've said this all along as we surf a strip with 2 other g23s all summer long in the same area and when u look iver it seems like they are hugging their boats.. maybe because they paid more they don't want it to get too far outta sight.. 

 

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Pnwrider
21 minutes ago, IXFE said:

I went and looked up the organization that did the tests. They posted their methodology. 

https://www.guinnpartners.com/boat-testing/

It’s a good read... Here’s what you want to know...

”All boats tested with factory presets or factory recommended settings including Ballast & Surf System.  No extra ballast was added to the boats. If Plug N Play was an available option and installed at the factory, then the recommended sacks where connected and utilized.”

Thanks for the link. Would still be curious to know the real pnp setups. while plug n play is an available option, the bags aren’t installed at the factory. 

Especially after seeing “ *malibu supported this testing with boats and equipment “

 

 

Edited by Pnwrider

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Lees23
58 minutes ago, IXFE said:

So I’ve been in Vegas all week for work. Today my dealer calls and says my new 25 LSV arrived!  Excited, I start poking around social media and come across THIS!!

Finally some objective data on surf waves (best I’ve seen anyway)...

EDIT: click the blue box and it will play

 

 

I would say that “objective” is probably not the best word here, “biased” might be more accurate.  

Has pnp ever been a factory option?  I know the plumbing is, but have to ever been able to get bags shipped from the factory?  It is my understanding they PNP bags have never been included in the build process because it would significantly reduce capacity ratings. 

Edited by Lees23

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blytle473

Seems like a dumb comparison... why put a 25' boat up against a 23' boat? Wouldn't it have been more conclusive to be consistent with boat lengths?

A better test I would've rather seen is a 25lsv against a SE550 or SL550/G25/RI257 or FI25?

It seems like, with all of the head to head tests, the "testers" boat always comes out on top (just an observation)

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IXFE
15 minutes ago, Pnwrider said:

Thanks for the link. Would still be curious to know the real pnp setups. while plug n play is an available option, the bags aren’t installed at the factory. 

Especially after seeing “ *malibu supported this testing with boats and equipment “

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me... 

“ If Plug N Play was an available option and installed at the factory, then the recommended sacks where connected and utilized.”

What are the recommended sacks?  450’s, I think..??

I honestly don’t see how this isn’t fair.  Think about it this way... how do the majority of buyers use these boats?  Every Malibu ships with PnP plumbing and is delivered with factory recommended bags.  What’s that make the total... something like 2800 lbs, right?  That’s how these boats are used. Every G23 is delivered with close to about the same in hard tank ballast. Nautique owners are all very vocal about it doesn’t need bags and the factory doesn’t make it possible.  That’s how those boats are used. In other words, very similar weight and representative of how these boats used by the majority of buyers. So as I see it... this is as close to a real world test as your gonna get.  

As for G23 vs 25 LSV... so your really think the G25 would fare better?  Everybody knows the G23 is the best surf boat in the Nautique line up. Plus, the G23 and 25 LSV weigh similar and cost similar.  Buyers don’t ONLY fixate on length. 

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IXFE
27 minutes ago, Lees23 said:

I would say that “objective” is probably not the best word here, “biased” might be more accurate.  

Has pnp ever been a factory option?  I know the plumbing is, but have to ever been able to get bags shipped from the factory?  It is my understanding they PNP bags have never been included in the build process because it would significantly reduce capacity ratings. 

Okay, how would YOU setup a fair and objective comparison?

I’m curious...

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Lees23
1 minute ago, IXFE said:

Okay, how would YOU setup a fair and objective comparison?

I’m curious...

It’s just VERY suspect that Malibu wins EVERY comparison, and seems to do it by a wide margin.  There needs to be a lot more transparency here... exact boat setups, how waves are measured, how face quality is quantified(this appears to be extremely subjective in this animation).. and so on...  

(By the way, the 25 LSV is one of, if not my favorite, boat... )

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Lees23

Anyone see the recent Chevy reliability commercial?  Chevy claimed to be more reliable than Honda or Toyota... based on a customer survey.  They eventually pulled the add after Toyota threatened to expose where they were getting their findings. 

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bbattiste247
11 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Okay, how would YOU setup a fair and objective comparison?

I’m curious...

IXFE - You should have messaged me. If you have been in Vegas all week, we could have taken you out on our new 25 lsv. We took delivery on Saturday and was out on the lake on Sunday.

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Pnwrider
5 minutes ago, IXFE said:

I honestly don’t see how this isn’t fair.  Think about it this way... how do the majority of buyers use these boats?  Every Malibu ships with PnP plumbing and is delivered with factory recommended bags.  

My boat was not delivered with any factory recommended bags. Is it an objective comparison if the Malibu/axis was run with pnp bags and mastercraft without? 

 

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The Hulk

I've always said the size of g23 is comparable to the 25lsv and that these boats are more similar than comparing a 23lsv. The G is much taller and 25 is longer. I think the 25lsv is even lighter. 25lsv is more similar priced but still costs far less for similar setups, at least pre 2019 pricing.. 

Even if you put a 23lsv up against the g23 it's not going to be worse infact comparable or better based on that video and what we have seen. Riding styles may come into play there but I'd say 23lsv wins in pocket size still but may loose in height

When has anyone even discussed a G25? It's a giant pig that can't be sunk enough, looks ridiculous, plows ridiculous, and doesn't do anything well other than drain the bank account..  

 I would like to see the ri237 and ri257 comparison but these are still somewhat rare.. I'm sure we won't see that video anytime...ever... 

Ris are the real wave comp.. but they are not market comps..yet.. 

 

Edited by The Hulk

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bamaboy
1 hour ago, IXFE said:

Okay, how would YOU setup a fair and objective comparison?

I’m curious...

I would surf it myself.  Which you and I and all of our crew did on these exact boats at Norris lake 2 years ago. Remember when we did a real life experiment?

Half preferred the G.  Half the 25.  Not sure how you can sit there and applaud this when you were actually involved in a real life test that resulted in 50/50 preference for each boat.  

 

This stupid comparison test has been done.  MC did it 5 years ago and it was laughable.  Boat show talking points.  Move along.  Nothing to see here.

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The Hulk
8 minutes ago, bamaboy said:

I would surf it myself.  Which you and I and all of our crew did on these exact boats at Norris lake 2 years ago. Remember when we did a real life experiment?

Half preferred the G.  Half the 25.  Not sure how you can sit there and applaud this when you were actually involved in a real life test that resulted in 50/50 preference for each boat.  

 

This stupid comparison test has been done.  MC did it 5 years ago and it was laughable.  Boat show talking points.  Move along.  Nothing to see here.

Aren't you just chasing all of us around on your SuperJet anyway? ;)

Edited by The Hulk

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IXFE

Funny how NOBODY said any of this when Centurion paid for an “objective” comparison of GPH.  That was taken as gospel. 

But these tests somehow offend everybody. How dare anybody take two boats, set them up to factory specs, and take some measurents...??  

I mean, haven’t we been begging for this for years?  Who else has even attempted to do this sort of comparison.  Sure demo is better.  But it’s -50 in Michigan and who has time to demo 10 boats anyway?  In the absence of demo, isn’t this better than NOTHING?

Far as I’m concerned this proves what I’ve always known... TMC is full of Malibu haters.  The fact that most of you have spent more time trying to discredit the tests than even watching them... You didn’t even read the criteria before you started in with your conspiracy theories.  I had to point it out to you. Then you make up other reasons to discredit. What are you gonna say when they release a video showing 23 LSV beating G23?  I’m sure you’ll think of something!

Oh, and @Pnwrider, your boat didn’t come with bags because your dealer sucks. Sorry, it’s true.  

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bamaboy

Are you kidding me @IXFE? Are you serious? 

 

Yeah never been done before. This was a study conducted at university of michigan in 2014 I believe.  There are videos of the study all over YouTube.  https://utahwatersports.com/surf-systems/

 

Very scientific and also stupid.  Just like this "study " you posted is stupid.  Proves nothing other than Malibu paid for some boat show talking points.  Coming from an intelligent guy like you I'm shocked you consider this anything other than what it is...poop.

 

The MC study got crushed on TMC just like this study should.  There's no Malibu hate.  Just stupid study hate

Edited by bamaboy

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Pnwrider
28 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Oh, and @Pnwrider, your boat didn’t come with bags because your dealer sucks. Sorry, it’s true.  

Maybe you’re right, or maybe my experience is more of the norm. There’s a reason people post threads asking which size/brand pnp bags to order for their new boats every year. Glad you can admit it’s dealer installed and not factory as the video data implies. 

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IXFE
20 minutes ago, Pnwrider said:

Maybe you’re right, or maybe my experience is more of the norm. There’s a reason people post threads asking which size/brand pnp bags to order for their new boats every year. Glad you can admit it’s dealer installed and not factory as the video data implies. 

That’s a lot of “maybes.” 

I’ll post this for the THIRD time... please continue to ignore it. 

“If Plug N Play was an available option and installed at the factory, then the recommended sacks where connected and utilized.”

That goes for BOTH Malibu and the others. 

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IXFE
3 hours ago, Lees23 said:

It’s just VERY suspect that Malibu wins EVERY comparison, and seems to do it by a wide margin.  There needs to be a lot more transparency here... exact boat setups, how waves are measured, how face quality is quantified(this appears to be extremely subjective in this animation).. and so on...  

(By the way, the 25 LSV is one of, if not my favorite, boat... )

The link I posted above clearly explains all that. Did you read it?

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TenTwentyOne
3 hours ago, bamaboy said:

Are you kidding me @IXFE? Are you serious? 

 

Yeah never been done before. This was a study conducted at university of michigan in 2014 I believe.  There are videos of the study all over YouTube.  https://utahwatersports.com/surf-systems/

 

Very scientific and also stupid.  Just like this "study " you posted is stupid.  Proves nothing other than Malibu paid for some boat show talking points.  Coming from an intelligent guy like you I'm shocked you consider this anything other than what it is...poop.

 

The MC study got crushed on TMC just like this study should.  There's no Malibu hate.  Just stupid study hate

 

And at least university of Michigan attempted to use a scientific approach to the study, instead of just transposing a graph on the wave (And then not even using the same cam angles when they do).

For anyone with personal experience with a lot of these models, it’s very easy to see the HEAVY bias in these vids...... 

 

You know where the bias really starts to show?? It’s when you compare the other models to each other. Moomba mojo, MC NXT22, XT22, and X23 waves are essentially the same? Really?? I can easily buy that the A22 puts out a better wave than a stock NXT22. The NXT22 needs bigger bags installed first thing. Stock wave is small, and is NOTHING like the XT22 wave, let alone the X23.

 

 

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TenTwentyOne

Wait...... I wasn’t sure who Guinn partners was, or what they did. I was thinking at first they might be a research firm....... nope, they are “Guinn Partners is an experienced go-to-market consulting firm”

 

@IXFE......... this surprises me a little.

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Lees23
4 hours ago, IXFE said:

That’s a lot of “maybes.” 

I’ll post this for the THIRD time... please continue to ignore it. 

“If Plug N Play was an available option and installed at the factory, then the recommended sacks where connected and utilized.”

That goes for BOTH Malibu and the others. 

I have yet to see factory installed PNP or factory recommendations for PNP bags.  

All I have ever see is factory installed PNP plumbing with dealer installed bags.  Where are the factory bag reccomendations listed?

I love my Malibu, but this is propaganda at best.  

I believe the GPH study was much more detailed and by nature is a much more scientific study than “which wave is better”.  

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Lees23
3 hours ago, IXFE said:

The link I posted above clearly explains all that. Did you read it?

-I did just now.  Again, a 1-10 scale is never objective.

-Malibu supported this testing with boats and equipment(I can promise you they paid for this advertisement as well).

-Guinn Partners is an experienced go-to-market consulting firm specializing in technology products. We have decades of experience taking products to consumer, commercial, and government markets with extensive specific expertise in robotics and unmanned platforms. We provide a spectrum of scalable services from go-to-market planning to lead generation and modern marketing to product development. Our ideal partners are companies and entrepreneurs who have exciting product ideas and want a proven team of complementary experts to help develop, market and sell products at a fraction of the cost and time of building an in-house team from scratch.

-Creative marketing at best.

-I am not a Malibu hater and love my 22VLX. 

Edited by Lees23

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