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hawaiianstyln

4 optimas parallel but 3 bank promarinar charger

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hawaiianstyln

I'm beating my brain on this one and maybe I'm making it overly complicated.  I have 4 new blue top optimas for stereo and on red optima for starting (my 1st winter project of the year).  However, I only have a 3 bank promariner prosport 20 plus onboard charger.  How can I use two of the banks for the 4 optimas because the other bank has to be for starting?  My boat is stored in my garage so it's hooked up to 110 when we are done for the day to slow charge over night. 

Scenario 1 - connect all 4 optimas in parallel, then run charger bank 1 to pos on battery 1 and neg to battery 2.  Then run charger bank 2 to pos battery 3 and neg to battery 4. 

Scenario 2 - Separate 4 batteries into two + two (all 4 would not be connected together).  the 1st two batteries are parallel and get bank 1 on the charger.  The 2nd two batteries in parallel get bank 2 on the charger.  The starting gets the 3rd bank.  In this scenario since the positives of both separated batteries still lead to the perko switch, the stereo should still have the power of all 4 batteries.

is my logic clear as mud here??

IMG_2066.thumb.jpg.915a79e9076d2414fd3235c6ac1c14e8.jpgIMG_2065.thumb.jpg.c2c60d4493aefd5da7dfd3e70d9f1697.jpg

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hawaiianstyln

I meant to draw that the starter would always lead to position 1 on the perko and the stereo whether its two positive wires coming in if I separate 2X2 or one wire comes in if all 4 are connected would lead to position 2 on the perko.

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MLA
8 hours ago, hawaiianstyln said:

How can I use two of the banks for the 4 optimas because the other bank has to be for starting? 

You can connect B+ and B- of the 2 charger banks, to what ever POS and NEG battery terminals in your pack, you want. It will make little difference. Wired in parallel, the 4 batteries act as one. The promariner chargers allow for "stacking", meaning 2 banks can charge into one battery with no adverse effects to the charger. 

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shawndoggy

what switch (specifically) do you have?

Even if you separate your four optimas into two banks, if the positive lead from each bank terminates to the same stud on the perko, the two banks will always be combined (they connect right there on the perko).  

To get it to work the way you want, I think you need cascading switches.  So that you have a "main" switch between bank 1 (starter) and bank 2 (stereo).  The bank 2 lead from the main switch then goes to a secondary switch where you can switch between your two stereo banks.  That way, as long as the main switch is turned to "OFF" and the stereo switch is turned to any position other than "ALL," all three banks should be isolated from one another for charging.  

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shawndoggy
8 minutes ago, MLA said:

You can connect B+ and B- of the 2 charger banks, to what ever POS and NEG battery terminals in your pack, you want. It will make little difference. Wired in parallel, the 4 batteries act as one. The promariner chargers allow for "stacking", meaning 2 banks can charge into one battery with no adverse effects to the charger. 

you CAN, but I think that's inconsistent with the manual:

"Note: ProSport On-Board Marine Battery Chargers are designed for any combination of group 24,27,30 and 31 batteries. Each battery charger DC output cable must be connected to one (1) 12 Volt DC battery (even if batteries are configured for 24 Volt DC or 36Volt DC trolling motor or system applications)"

So even doing it my way with cascading switches is inconsistent with the manual.  My thought being that two opitma group 24s are about the same as a single group 31.  But still technically incorrect.  None of the manual diagrams show a single set of leads going to either a series or parallel bank of multiple batteries.

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hawaiianstyln

not that it probably matters but these are group 34's.  My perko switch is a A or B or BOTH

A would be starting battery.  B would be Stereo.  Both would obviously be all.

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MLA

@shawndoggy based on that excerpt, is your take away, that the OP needs 5 charger outputs? A 4-bank charger for the house and a single bank bank for the main? 

In series 24 or 36 volt setup, you absolutely need to connect each 12V output to each battery's B+ and B- posts. But with a 12V bank, you can use 2 charge outputs on one bank. 

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hawaiianstyln

what about this.  This came from a diagram that had one bank for charging.  I added the other pos and neg and second bank to the diagram to see if you thought this was okay

1757754673_12-5-201810-29-49AM.thumb.jpg.6e220edeb7d84f0113efccfedb297c3f.jpg

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hawaiianstyln

I just called Promariner and the tech dude was like "NOPE NOPE NOPE" can't do that you need another onboard charger for the other two stereo batteries" then it sounded like he was done with me. 

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MLA

Here's a couple of FAQ's from the Promariner site http://www.promariner.com/en/resources/faq

Q) Can I connect the charger to only one battery? What do I do with the unused leads or terminals?

A) If you are using a waterproof charger and want to charge 1 battery on a 2 bank charger, you will need to connect both leads on that one battery. If you are charging 1 or 2 batteries with a 3 bank charger, you will need to connect all the leads on the 1 or 2 batteries. At no time should the charger be run without all the leads being connected to a battery(s).

Q) How many batteries or battery banks are to be charged?

A) A bank is several batteries harnessed together and treated as if they were a single, larger battery. Your charger will require one output per bank. Chargers often have a number of outputs, some which need not be used. Some have 1 or 2, most have 3 or more units.

 

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shawndoggy
4 hours ago, MLA said:

@shawndoggy based on that excerpt, is your take away, that the OP needs 5 charger outputs? A 4-bank charger for the house and a single bank bank for the main? 

In series 24 or 36 volt setup, you absolutely need to connect each 12V output to each battery's B+ and B- posts. But with a 12V bank, you can use 2 charge outputs on one bank. 

Look at the diagrams in the manual.  In no case do they show a parallel bank with one lead.  In fact they do show two leads going to a two battery parallel bank.

Not busting your balls man, I just think that the prosport is not the right choice for @hawaiianstyln's setup.  Or at least not a supported choice.  Haha I'd probably still do it the way I suggested (because I don't think two parallel 50 ah G24s are "bigger" than a single 105 ah G31), but if I were selling it to a customer I'd expect I'd hold myself to a higher standard, like following the directions in the manual. (OK maybe busting your balls a little :Tease3:).

10 minutes ago, MLA said:

Here's a couple of FAQ's from the Promariner site http://www.promariner.com/en/resources/faq

A) A bank is several batteries harnessed together and treated as if they were a single, larger battery. Your charger will require one output per bank. Chargers often have a number of outputs, some which need not be used. Some have 1 or 2, most have 3 or more units.

 

The unstated caveat in that FAQ is that the prosport chargers are not the only chargers that promariner makes.  The prosport manual clearly states that the prosport is not the right charger for a 4d or 8d battery.  4D = 200 ah / @hawaiianstyln's 4 group24 blue tops in parallel (50 ah apiece x 4) = 200 ah.  

Look at page 8 of the prosport manual, where it says:

Application Tip If your application is for 4D or 8D large capacity batteries, please refer to ProMariner’s website www.promariner.com and view our ProNauticP Hardwired Charger Assortment for a model that is correct for this group size of batteries.

So the FAQ is correct, but not as to the capabilities of the prosport line.

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shawndoggy
1 hour ago, hawaiianstyln said:

I just called Promariner and the tech dude was like "NOPE NOPE NOPE" can't do that you need another onboard charger for the other two stereo batteries" then it sounded like he was done with me. 

Ha!

What's your plan for the batteries while you are using the boat?  Is the four battery stereo bank going to be completely isolated from the alternator too?  If not, that's a giant load to put on the alternator all at once (i.e. say you run down the four battery parallel stereo bank at the sandbar, then turn the switch to all for the cruise back home) and is going to end up cooking your alternator (IMHO).  If you are gonna keep the stereo bank totally off of the alternator, you'll probably be fine.  If you do want to use the alternator too, that's where dividing the four batteries into two banks with a cascading switch is also a good idea because it will limit the hit on the alternator (assuming you don't turn the sub-switch to all of course).

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shawndoggy

Oops, just saw the blue tops are G34s.  Optima says 55ah so 110 for a two battery bank.  Prolly still "close enough" for me, but definitely stressing the max capacity of this charger.

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MLA

Shawn, if you want to hear me tell the OP he needs a larger charger, I will. Just note, the OP seems to already have the 5 batteries and the 3 banks charger. He also posted the battery group after my initial post regarding how the setup could be wired, which was his question. 

@hawaiianstyln You need a bigger charger. Once you include the Ah of the main cranking, the summed Ah of all 5 batteries does exceed the 10% rule, but only my a little. Will it work? Sure. The charger will just work harder then a higher capacity charger. Since the main cranking battery will likely never need much of a charge, this leaves the charges 20A capacity for the house bank, through the charger's distribute on demand feature. Now, the house bank is right at the 10% mark. 

25 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

If not, that's a giant load to put on the alternator all at once

Alternator never needs to see this heavy load on the cruise back home. 

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hawaiianstyln

This is all good debate and conversation.  I do plan on running batteries down at sandbar then On the way home battery A (starting) will be the only one selected because i am aware of the load that could cause.  Then park in garage and recharge overnight  

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shawndoggy
1 minute ago, MLA said:

Alternator never needs to see this heavy load on the cruise back home. 

Maybe maybe not.  Depends how he wants to use the boat.  There may be times when shore charging isn't an option (houseboat trip, vacation rental slip, etc).  It's definitely something to keep in mind tho.  In that situation dividing the blue tops into two switched banks could provide some additional flexibility to alternator charge / use one bank at a time.

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hawaiianstyln

Okay @shawndoggy so does that mean my second drawing is the proposal? If i understand you?  This is the way i wanted to do it but.....

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MLA

In fig 2, the 4 batteries are still in parallel, same as fig 1. The difference is, in #2, you have likely longer B+ cables coming off 2 batteries, which then connect on the #2 stud of the switch as opposed to one shrter cable connecting those 2 B+ posts directly together. 

I prefer the fig 1 scheme.  

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shawndoggy
19 minutes ago, hawaiianstyln said:

Okay @shawndoggy so does that mean my second drawing is the proposal? If i understand you?  This is the way i wanted to do it but.....

I'm suggesting like this:

46144346642_0465b5dcc0_z.jpg

(hopefully this makes sense)

hey if you want another switch to do the cascading thing, let me know.  I've got the factory OFF-1-2-ALL Blue Sea switch from a 2014 LSV that's just sitting in my garage gathering dust.  

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minnmarker
28 minutes ago, MLA said:

I prefer the fig 1 scheme.  

So do I.  Another benefit is you lose all those ancient Perko switches that you can forget to have in the right position at the right time - and so can your crew.

It seems like all that alt sucking battery capacity is just going to cause problems.  Why do you need so much sandbar amp hours?  Ballast?  How about 2 stereo batteries in parallel, same charger, and an ACR?  Lose 2 batteries.  Run the engine at idle to recharge if you're ever at the sand bar that long.

Or get class D amps if you don't have them.

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MLA
9 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

Run the engine at idle to recharge if you're ever at the sand bar that long.

Not advised. CO hazard. 

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hawaiianstyln
51 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

I'm suggesting like this:

46144346642_0465b5dcc0_z.jpg

(hopefully this makes sense)

hey if you want another switch to do the cascading thing, let me know.  I've got the factory OFF-1-2-ALL Blue Sea switch from a 2014 LSV that's just sitting in my garage gathering dust.  

Ahhhh i see!  Thx for the drawing!

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shawndoggy
13 hours ago, Weski said:

Not sure if Promariner makes a 4 bank charger but Noco does.  That's the route I would go.  https://no.co/gen4

still need to figure a way to isolate the batteries from one anothe for charging tho.

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hawaiianstyln

I talked to my buddy that lives in DFW Texas (Owns a 2012 SANTE 230) and he took his 9 stinger batteries to a highly recommended stereo shop in the fort worth area and they put in the same Promariner ProSport 20 Plus.  They wired bank 1 to the starting battery (#1) and bank 2 to #2 in the stereo battery parallel setup and bank 3 from the charger to #8.  Never had an issue in 7 years of owning the boat and the charge is fairly quick.  Thing is, he (nor I) hanging at a sandbar will never deplete these batteries so low that they could be a concern (his opinion).  He also has the stock Alternator on that Nautique Super Air.  Still going strong

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