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New tow vehicle


Steve B.

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8 hours ago, kerpluxal said:

 

Interesting topic on talk radio last week... pertaining to this.. The former President of Shell, John Hofmeister, stated that we will not see a big movement towards alternative power vehicles until 2040. This is when he believes that Hydrogen power will be significantly reduced and the cost to produce hydrogen cars will reduce as well. Battery will never be the wave of the future due to range anxiety. However, it will a niche market and still be around as it is today. 

I prefer the interaction of a gas power engine (noise, sensory inputs) especially on the track. But the electric engine is way more effecient and responsive.

With that said, I guess we will have to see what the future really has to offer.

As for flying cars.. I never believe this will happen as morons can't even drive on the ground ;) 

John Hofmeister has studied the industry consistently since his retirement from Shell, he is the expert 

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7 hours ago, rugger said:

So much propaganda out there it's ridiculous.  Wrong!

Maybe electric isn't the end all be all, but gas vehicles sure aren't either wrong they built a nation

 Nor have they changed much in a century. OMG model T had leather clutch straps and a clutch pedal you only released after putting it in high gear to my wife’s 18’ GT

 Unfortunately hydrogen cars are still more of a , correct except the storage space for gas cause compressed its s nightmare , self generating hydrogen , yea!!!!

 

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8 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

And everything is federally and /or state subsidized including Tesla and the charging stations , agsin the real estate it takes to provide commercial charging activities availabke to general public is subsidized and woujd  have to be subsidized if it was tried on larger pieces of real estate that would accommodate  general public, acres and acres and acres , gas station few in a few out plus snack shopping traffic , small real estate and with convenience store and food, quite profitable  

even solar panels even with net metering are subsidized. That’s why most states have come up with peak power add ons cause try to start your air condituiner in a hot day from your panels alone, you can’t , you have to have peak availability to start and run or massive battery banks, especially if multiple compressors kick on at once      

Whole electrical clean energy industry is completely subsidized by tax breaks and net metering , agsin try to start your air conditioner without the power company’s side of your “net metering “

Starting A/C? Look up inverter driven compressor. 10kW of panels in the back can easily start 3kW of inverter compressors. Most people are only using about 1/2-3/4 of what they produce with the panels. The power companies love it. The fossil fuel burning power plants end up bleeding energy at low load times so they stay up for high peak times. Power plants do not modulate well due to their size. So if you knock some peak load off, middle of the day when solar is making the most, they can run the power plants at a lower production and that nightly bleed is less therefore they lose less. Also, with localized power generation of renewables the load on the grid is less. You know how antiquated the power distribution system is in this country? You can start paying double power prices to upgrade it or lessen the load and live with what you got. So yeah, renewables are subsidized, but believe it or not it is helping you.

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On 12/3/2018 at 6:19 PM, granddaddy55 said:

Can you condition the batteries to totally discharge just before recharge as that conditioning in any battery determined it’s ability to output at lower charge numbers snd be reliable when not in full charge 

if always used for partial charging from say 35-50% or more to full and keep using tgat wsy the batteries will not  take charge to 100 and discharge all the way to  say 10% and still be reliable 

once not reliable the inevitable battery change comes into play earlier and the cost above becomes not so accurate

This is 2018, not 1998.  You may be shocked that battery tech has changed dramatically.

The real FACT is that electric cars will never be the primary vehicle for those wanting to take a long trip until both battery tech OR recharging tech improves (and better yet, both).  We either need a much quicker way to charge or a battery that can take us much further.  The quicker charging is the more likely scenario. 

My household would be a prime candidate for an all-electric car.  My wife's drive is very electric friendly and she could sustain your typical electric car on a 120v nightly charge.  My drive would struggle a bit on 120v but no issue on 220v;  I could replace my car with all-electric and still have my gas truck and our household would be all set.

The real problem - most of the electric cars sucks.  The Tesla's hold their value too well used.  My wife drives a well optioned B8.5 Audi  S4.  A similar year/mileage/condition Tesla Model S would have cost over 2x the price used.  She would have loved a Model S, but at 2x the price, that Macan Turbo she was heavily eyeing would have won easily.  Every other electric is pretty crappy to be honest - they feel like overpriced economy cars.  That's where Tesla does it right - you don't feel like you are driving an econo-box.  But their pricing just doesn't make sense to own one to be honest.  

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On 12/3/2018 at 6:19 PM, granddaddy55 said:

Can you condition the batteries to totally discharge just before recharge as that conditioning in any battery determined it’s ability to output at lower charge numbers snd be reliable when not in full charge 

if always used for partial charging from say 35-50% or more to full and keep using tgat wsy the batteries will not  take charge to 100 and discharge all the way to  say 10% and still be reliable 

once not reliable the inevitable battery change comes into play earlier and the cost above becomes not so accurate

This is 2018, not 1998.  You may be shocked that battery tech has changed dramatically.

The real FACT is that electric cars will never be the primary vehicle for those wanting to take a long trip until both battery tech OR recharging tech improves (and better yet, both).  We either need a much quicker way to charge or a battery that can take us much further.  The quicker charging is the more likely scenario. 

My household would be a prime candidate for an all-electric car.  My wife's drive is very electric friendly and she could sustain your typical electric car on a 120v nightly charge.  My drive would struggle a bit on 120v but no issue on 220v;  I could replace my car with all-electric and still have my gas truck; our household would be all set.

The real problem - most of the electric cars sucks.  The Tesla's hold their value too well used.  My wife drives a well optioned B8.5 Audi  S4.  A similar year/mileage/condition Tesla Model S would have cost over 2x the price used.  She would have loved a Model S, but at 2x the price, that Macan Turbo she was heavily eyeing would have won easily.  Every other electric is pretty crappy to be honest - they feel like overpriced economy cars.  That's where Tesla does it right - you don't feel like you are driving an econo-box.  But their pricing just doesn't make sense to own one to be honest.  

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Tesla pricing should be compared to a high end luxury car. The reason people think it’s so expensive is because they constantly compare it to the average car on the road. But once you break it down to a vehicle in its class and factor in maintenance and gas it’s not that bad.  

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On 12/4/2018 at 12:54 PM, kerpluxal said:

 

Interesting topic on talk radio last week... pertaining to this.. The former President of Shell, John Hofmeister, stated that we will not see a big movement towards alternative power vehicles until 2040. This is when he believes that Hydrogen power will be significantly reduced and the cost to produce hydrogen cars will reduce as well. Battery will never be the wave of the future due to range anxiety. However, it will a niche market and still be around as it is today. 

I prefer the interaction of a gas power engine (noise, sensory inputs) especially on the track. But the electric engine is way more effecient and responsive.

With that said, I guess we will have to see what the future really has to offer.

As for flying cars.. I never believe this will happen as morons can't even drive on the ground ;) 

Shell has been lobbying to kill alternative initiatives, environmental regulation, pollution reduction requirements, and influencing auto makers to limit fuel efficient technology for decades.  All threats to their industry that John would of course minimize by saying 2040.  His retirement means hes just calling shots from his chateau in Aspen, or Vail, or Telluride, or wherever else the guy watches his money from.  

That said, Ford and GM just announced billions going into R&D on electrics and hybrid electrics within the next decade, along with restructuring of product lines and manufacturing.  I'm not a betting man, but it feels like change is coming much sooner.  While I love the sound of a V8, when I drove my buddy's Tesla I kept thinking how awesome towing a boat with an electric truck would be.  

Emerging electrics are just going to benefit gas motor vehicle owners.  Companies like Shell are already in the alternatives game, but John's talking up hydrogen because shell dumped a ton of money into it and so far it sucks as bad as when they tried natural gas.  

Range anxiety isn't an issue with gas burner and electric hybrids, and those I know with straight electrics have no issue with range at all.  Their electric is a commuter, or 2nd car anyways.  

Edited by Pra4sno
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On 12/4/2018 at 12:23 PM, oldjeep said:

The biggest barrier to the electric car is the home infrastructure

1) Do you park your car in the garage - great then maybe you can install a charging station if your home electrical supports it

2) Do you park in the driveway - well maybe an outside charger or an extension cord

3) Do you park in the street - pretty well screwed there

4) Do you park in a parking garage - again, pretty unlikely that the entire structure is going to support charging cars

So a Tesla hone charger draws how many amps?  80 amps at 240 volts is going to put pressure on my 200 amp service. I don’t want to go motorhome or houseboat where I have to chose which appliance gets power.

 

FD56DCAA-46CE-4DE2-9014-E879A1918ED2.png

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1 hour ago, Bozboat said:

So a Tesla hone charger draws how many amps?  80 amps at 240 volts is going to put pressure on my 200 amp service. I don’t want to go motorhome or houseboat where I have to chose which appliance gets power.

Are you certain your home use would not allow for an 80amp draw?  Unless you are doing some measurements, don't be so sure.  I have a Sense unit in my panel to monitor peak/average draw as well as per-unit draw.  

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24 minutes ago, Nitrousbird said:

Are you certain your home use would not allow for an 80amp draw?  Unless you are doing some measurements, don't be so sure.  I have a Sense unit in my panel to monitor peak/average draw as well as per-unit draw.  

I have 200 amp service.  Electric dryer, electric range, microwave, etc.  Also have 240 for a hot tub, 60 amp servicr.  All have run concurrently on occasion with no issue.  All to code.  All inspected.  

 

I wanted to pick up a used Chevy volt last year, so I asked a neighbor who is an experienced electrician to check it out.  He confirmed that it would be the hot tub or the car, but that with the way my sub panel was set up for 240 meant we could add an automatic switch so when one was on the other was locked out.  He said this was not difficult or expensive.  

I didn't get the car for reasons totally unrelated to electric service - and also got rid of the hot tub as it was a huge energy sapper.   Maybe that info helps anyone who has 200amp service looking at an electric.  

I am looking forward to an electric as a 2nd car or 3rd car.  

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On 12/13/2018 at 7:50 PM, Nitrousbird said:

Are you certain your home use would not allow for an 80amp draw?  Unless you are doing some measurements, don't be so sure.  I have a Sense unit in my panel to monitor peak/average draw as well as per-unit draw.  

As I agree it will run. Have you ever done a load calc on a residence. The way the National Electric Code makes us do load calls is ultra safe. With experience I know what it takes to run the electric service in a house. I also know how large of a service the  NEC says a residence needs to run without a problem. 😝🤪    Over in Sunnyvale they are upgrading services just because people have bought Tesla’s. Just factor it into the price of the car.

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On 12/13/2018 at 8:32 PM, Pra4sno said:

I have 200 amp service.  Electric dryer, electric range, microwave, etc.  Also have 240 for a hot tub, 60 amp servicr.  All have run concurrently on occasion with no issue.  All to code.  All inspected.  

 

I wanted to pick up a used Chevy volt last year, so I asked a neighbor who is an experienced electrician to check it out.  He confirmed that it would be the hot tub or the car, but that with the way my sub panel was set up for 240 meant we could add an automatic switch so when one was on the other was locked out.  He said this was not difficult or expensive.  

I didn't get the car for reasons totally unrelated to electric service - and also got rid of the hot tub as it was a huge energy sapper.   Maybe that info helps anyone who has 200amp service looking at an electric.  

I am looking forward to an electric as a 2nd car or 3rd car.  

So plug it I. And don’t tell the city. It should run fine. All of these loads are intermittent. However any lighting or heating load has to be figured at 125%. Continuous load. Who ever turns every light, every appliance the HVAC on to run continuos. That is how we have to calculate the load. 

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On 12/13/2018 at 9:50 PM, Nitrousbird said:

Are you certain your home use would not allow for an 80amp draw?  Unless you are doing some measurements, don't be so sure.  I have a Sense unit in my panel to monitor peak/average draw as well as per-unit draw.  

Electricity is a mystery for me.   So my concern or question really was: When running two five ton ac units, a clothes dryer, two 50 gallon water heaters, the oven, two refrigerators, a freezer, and whatever else my three gamers use, how much room is left for the Tesla 80 amp charger on my 200amp box?

If we decide my house has capacity, which it probably does as it would seem that most of the time not everything runs at once, what happens in August when the AC demands from sustained 100 plus temperatures cause the rolling blackouts?

Economics and infrastructure issues  aside, I am a fan of the idea of a  Tesla, it would be a fun daily driver. 

 

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AC = 16-25 amps per, depending on voltage and phase (forget the startup load of 100 amps +/-)

Reefers = 6-15 amps per

Dryer = ~22-25 amps

Water heater = 18-24 amps per

Oven = 15-25 amps

Freezer = 5-8 amps

Gamer stuff = 5, maybe.  But there is a lot of other stuff like lights, always-on TVs etc so I bet there is another 10-15 amps scattered around the house.

So if it is all running it is unlikely you could charge a Tesla.  Of course not likely that it would be running at the same time.

 

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8 hours ago, Eagleboy99 said:

AC = 16-25 amps per, depending on voltage and phase (forget the startup load of 100 amps +/-)

Reefers = 6-15 amps per

Dryer = ~22-25 amps

Water heater = 18-24 amps per

Oven = 15-25 amps

Freezer = 5-8 amps

Gamer stuff = 5, maybe.  But there is a lot of other stuff like lights, always-on TVs etc so I bet there is another 10-15 amps scattered around the house.

So if it is all running it is unlikely you could charge a Tesla.  Of course not likely that it would be running at the same time.

 

At this rate charging a car would have to be done slowly at night.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is being overcomplicated.  Buddy just bought a Tesla.  Was asked if he had any charging questions and an electrician who did Tesla's training module was sent out.  The options available were endless and fine tuned to the application.  

If you're really interested in an electric car, the consultation with the electrician was like $100 and I believe Tesla rolled it in when he bought the car.  

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