Why does my blood boil everytime I talk to my dealer?

[oldjeep]

There are a few mobile outfits around here, they charge about what the dealer does but it seems like it would be more convenient.  One example - looking at about $475 for winterizing and oil change

http://midwestwinterizing.com/prices/

[kerpluxal]

3 minutes ago, wedge88 said:

+1

I keep toying with the idea of outfitting one of our old service vehicles as a mobile boat maintenance vehicle.  It amazes me at the amount of people that drag boats in for winterizations and the prices they pay.   I can do fluid changes and winterization on my boat for about $90 in materials and that includes a new impeller that I install in the spring, oil, filters, trans fluid and antifreeze.  I could charge people $300 and come to their house.  They would pay $200-$300 less and I could make $100/hr.   I wouldn't want to give up my full time gig but ponder taking vacation for the month of November and make enough scratch to cover all boating expenses and vacations for the following year.

My mechanic is mobile and his biggest income is from mobile service. He always contemplates closing his 7 bay shop, firing everyone and just doing mobile work.. 

I do the majority of the work on my boat and leave insurance claims or stuff I cannot resolve to him. 

Not everyone is mechanicly inclined and they prefer to pay, so their is always a market for it..

I won a free annual this year at an event from my mechanic... Gift Certificate valued at 875.00 and he is still cheaper than dealer.. 

[MileHighVLX]

On 10/11/2018 at 1:44 PM, formulaben said:

On a side note, to me it simply isn't worth the time to drag the boat to the dealer even if money wasn't an issue.

You couldn't have said it any better than that.  Besides, the more maintenance you can learn to do on your own the better you will be prepared to fix an issue on the water.  Your dealer can't help you out there no matter how much he charges.  I think most would agree that a day saved on the water is worth more than any amount of money you might burn at a dealership.

[shawndoggy]

On 10/11/2018 at 12:44 PM, formulaben said:

Like others mentioned, it won't be 15 minutes, but a couple beers and some cleaning and it is a "fun" couple hours with the boat given the situation. 

IMHO you can do it, and you'll be much happier with the work done.

my dealer offered to winterize my boat for me for free this year (I store there over the winter) and I said "nah, I like the time to just look at everything one more time before I put her down for her winter nap."

[ahopkins22LSV]

And this is the 1-2 star, dealer is not helping me out review on google or yelp...

[minnmarker]

2 hours ago, wedge88 said:

+1

I keep toying with the idea of outfitting one of our old service vehicles as a mobile boat maintenance vehicle.  It amazes me at the amount of people that drag boats in for winterizations and the prices they pay.   I can do fluid changes and winterization on my boat for about $90 in materials and that includes a new impeller that I install in the spring, oil, filters, trans fluid and antifreeze.  I could charge people $300 and come to their house.  They would pay $200-$300 less and I could make $100/hr.   I wouldn't want to give up my full time gig but ponder taking vacation for the month of November and make enough scratch to cover all boating expenses and vacations for the following year.

Charge $400 at their house for an inboard! That's the rate around here.

[AaronMefford]

Thank you for the many replies.  I suppose I am being unreasonable, but it would be easier to be reasonable if the rates were reasonable.  

Verdict on my subwoofer came back, the amp is fried.  Fine, was pretty certain that was the case.  But $500+ to replace a $300 already wired amp?  Only at a marine dealer.  $1400 for a touch screen, double the price of an Ipad (better LCD, better touch, better CPU, not sold by a marine dealer).

I tried last year to go the third party route.   That is how I ended up changing the heater core this spring and spending the year without a shower.  There was also a lot of other damage due to the water on the boat.

As to online resources, I have spent countless hours trying to find a definitive resource.  My boat does not have the 350 Monsoon, but rather the 550 CCadillac, I believe it is the LSA.  Both the Malibu and Indmar manuals are vague on the process.  They list the general steps but there is little in the way of detail.  I.E. "Remove the drain plugs from the ends of the heat exchanger and drain raw water."  What is the heat exchanger, and where are the plugs.   No picture just the assumption that you'll know.  But if you know that much then you really didn't need the manual.   So how do I close the gap in my knowledge.  I am sure some of you will read that and think me an idiot, but I just wasn't born knowing it and have never had anyone who could tell me definitively.  There are alot of things that transfer over from car knowledge, but my car does not have a heat exchanger.  The indmar manual talks about fresh water cooled and raw water cooled engines but never talks about which are which. I know my engine has an anti-freeze reservoir, perhaps that is what some have suggested by saying that I just need to open the cover and look.  Not insulting at all, I have and am quite familiar with my engine but that does not mean that I know every detail of it and when it comes to winterizing, missing one detail can be critical.  Perhaps I should just shell out to the dealer to winterize my boat three times a year, as frequently the weather here is warm enough in November to go boating but has frozen many nights in October.  Fall break at Lake Powell is a dream come true.  But the reality is that even paying for it once hurts, I have limited resources, a large family.  Maybe I just don't deserve to own a boat.  But I think there is a middle ground where I can do what I need to to maintain the boat and pay the pros for those things I cannot.  What I reject is paying the pros for things I could easily do, if I had only a few details cleared up or access to information that is only available to the dealer.

There is a nice discrepancy in many of the comments about my suggestion that a technician could spend some time with me.  Most suggest that it isn't about money, yet then suggest that is how they make their living.  Perhaps they think me an idiot.  I never suggested I wanted them to do this for free, and would be very happy to pay fairly for the time.  If I had another resource I had not exhausted, I would be taking it.  And the suggestion that me blaming them for my own work is absurd.  Teaching someone does not mean you take on liability for anything that might come from the use of that knowledge.  If I was the type to do such a thing, at worst they would have to bear a tongue lashing and be able to say I told you so, you should have let us do it, they would have no liability.  Sure their insurance might preclude me from being in the service bay (though they have invited me in before when they were trying to sell a boat), I never said this had to be in the service bay, the few minutes of time that I need could as easily happen in the parking lot.  Or as suggested I could pay a tech to teach me at my home, if I ever got to speak to one.  As for beer, I don't drink I'd be clueless what to by.The thought of asking a crew member has crossed my mind, but I have never seen any that appeared to be from my area.  Everyone seems to live quite a ways to the east.  

Having the dealer point me to the manual which the entirety of the engine winterization is here

Quote

Perform annual scheduled maintenance. Refer to engine owner’s manual for
complete engine winterization procedures as well as scheduled maintenance.
Note: Damage done due to improper engine winter storage will void your warranty. It
is highly suggested that you allow a trained Malibu technician to perform this service.
• After performing engine winterization, remove engine safety switch and spin
engine over a few seconds to remove excess water found in pump bodies.

The engine manual is better, but has differing directions based on which engine, but does not clearly state which engine fits which state of directions.  

As suggested there are a great many resources that describe and walk through the steps in detail, but none that I have seen are close enough to my boat, the vast majority are on the 350s and they seem to be a very different beast.  As far as I can tell there is no need on my boat to run antifreeze up into the raw water areas, and that is the big focus of nearly every winterization tutorial.  I even bought the equipment to do it but when I started looking into doing it things did not line up.  And really how much would it take to get just that one simple question answered.  Do I need to flush the system with anti-freeze?  O when it says spin then engine over a few seconds to remove excess water, does that really mean start my boat without a fake a lake attached?  I was never looking for someone to teach me the ins and outs of engine maintenance just a few simple questions, about my specific boat and motor that literally hundreds of hours of research have not been able to answer.

 

Sure I get it and if this were my only frustration with the dealer, then no biggie, I could cope, but it is all of it added together.  I mean being told that they won't sell me the screen if I am going to install it because only they can do the software (i am a software developer, I can manage a firmware update), only to have them fail to accomplish the part they insisted I could not?  And the $600 yearly winterization tax for an hour or so of work. The $150 oil change and $200 amp install (stereo shops charge $50 with running new wires).    I am so happy I can change my own oil and replace my own amp, but I really wish that I could have the dealer do it for a fair rate.  Part of the $600 is the oil change, but they will not separate that out.  In order to have them winterize I must pay for an oil change also.  And I guess that is just it it comes down to money.  Yes they need to make a living, but I have a family to feed also.

 

[t a]

2 hours ago, MileHighVLX said:

You couldn't have said it any better than that.  Besides, the more maintenance you can learn to do on your own the better you will be prepared to fix an issue on the water.  Your dealer can't help you out there no matter how much he charges.  I think most would agree that a day saved on the water is worth more than any amount of money you might burn at a dealership.

Yep I’m glad I can track down issues, granted this one was my fault.  I winterized my brothers MB.  In the spring, first ride out, noticed the bilge was coming on a lot.  When we finished riding and headed across the lake to the lakefront restaurant, the boat started having issues staying on plane.  There was a crap ton of water in the bilge.  Inspected all the winterization points with the engine running and found a loose hose and clamp on the tranny cooler.  Fixed the issue and has run perfect since. I’ve done my own boat for 8 years with no issues and glad I can avoid trips and weeks sitting at the dealer for the little things.  

[t a]

6 minutes ago, AaronMefford said:

Thank you for the many replies.  I suppose I am being unreasonable, but it would be easier to be reasonable if the rates were reasonable.  

Verdict on my subwoofer came back, the amp is fried.  Fine, was pretty certain that was the case.  But $500+ to replace a $300 already wired amp?  Only at a marine dealer.  $1400 for a touch screen, double the price of an Ipad (better LCD, better touch, better CPU, not sold by a marine dealer).

I tried last year to go the third party route.   That is how I ended up changing the heater core this spring and spending the year without a shower.  There was also a lot of other damage due to the water on the boat.

As to online resources, I have spent countless hours trying to find a definitive resource.  My boat does not have the 350 Monsoon, but rather the 550 CCadillac, I believe it is the LSA.  Both the Malibu and Indmar manuals are vague on the process.  They list the general steps but there is little in the way of detail.  I.E. "Remove the drain plugs from the ends of the heat exchanger and drain raw water."  What is the heat exchanger, and where are the plugs.   No picture just the assumption that you'll know.  But if you know that much then you really didn't need the manual.   So how do I close the gap in my knowledge.  I am sure some of you will read that and think me an idiot, but I just wasn't born knowing it and have never had anyone who could tell me definitively.  There are alot of things that transfer over from car knowledge, but my car does not have a heat exchanger.  The indmar manual talks about fresh water cooled and raw water cooled engines but never talks about which are which. I know my engine has an anti-freeze reservoir, perhaps that is what some have suggested by saying that I just need to open the cover and look.  Not insulting at all, I have and am quite familiar with my engine but that does not mean that I know every detail of it and when it comes to winterizing, missing one detail can be critical.  Perhaps I should just shell out to the dealer to winterize my boat three times a year, as frequently the weather here is warm enough in November to go boating but has frozen many nights in October.  Fall break at Lake Powell is a dream come true.  But the reality is that even paying for it once hurts, I have limited resources, a large family.  Maybe I just don't deserve to own a boat.  But I think there is a middle ground where I can do what I need to to maintain the boat and pay the pros for those things I cannot.  What I reject is paying the pros for things I could easily do, if I had only a few details cleared up or access to information that is only available to the dealer.

There is a nice discrepancy in many of the comments about my suggestion that a technician could spend some time with me.  Most suggest that it isn't about money, yet then suggest that is how they make their living.  Perhaps they think me an idiot.  I never suggested I wanted them to do this for free, and would be very happy to pay fairly for the time.  If I had another resource I had not exhausted, I would be taking it.  And the suggestion that me blaming them for my own work is absurd.  Teaching someone does not mean you take on liability for anything that might come from the use of that knowledge.  If I was the type to do such a thing, at worst they would have to bear a tongue lashing and be able to say I told you so, you should have let us do it, they would have no liability.  Sure their insurance might preclude me from being in the service bay (though they have invited me in before when they were trying to sell a boat), I never said this had to be in the service bay, the few minutes of time that I need could as easily happen in the parking lot.  Or as suggested I could pay a tech to teach me at my home, if I ever got to speak to one.  As for beer, I don't drink I'd be clueless what to by.The thought of asking a crew member has crossed my mind, but I have never seen any that appeared to be from my area.  Everyone seems to live quite a ways to the east.  

Having the dealer point me to the manual which the entirety of the engine winterization is here

The engine manual is better, but has differing directions based on which engine, but does not clearly state which engine fits which state of directions.  

As suggested there are a great many resources that describe and walk through the steps in detail, but none that I have seen are close enough to my boat, the vast majority are on the 350s and they seem to be a very different beast.  As far as I can tell there is no need on my boat to run antifreeze up into the raw water areas, and that is the big focus of nearly every winterization tutorial.  I even bought the equipment to do it but when I started looking into doing it things did not line up.  And really how much would it take to get just that one simple question answered.  Do I need to flush the system with anti-freeze?  O when it says spin then engine over a few seconds to remove excess water, does that really mean start my boat without a fake a lake attached?  I was never looking for someone to teach me the ins and outs of engine maintenance just a few simple questions, about my specific boat and motor that literally hundreds of hours of research have not been able to answer.

 

Sure I get it and if this were my only frustration with the dealer, then no biggie, I could cope, but it is all of it added together.  I mean being told that they won't sell me the screen if I am going to install it because only they can do the software (i am a software developer, I can manage a firmware update), only to have them fail to accomplish the part they insisted I could not?  And the $600 yearly winterization tax for an hour or so of work. The $150 oil change and $200 amp install (stereo shops charge $50 with running new wires).    I am so happy I can change my own oil and replace my own amp, but I really wish that I could have the dealer do it for a fair rate.  Part of the $600 is the oil change, but they will not separate that out.  In order to have them winterize I must pay for an oil change also.  And I guess that is just it it comes down to money.  Yes they need to make a living, but I have a family to feed also.

 

I see your point as I can winterize any variation of the 350, but I would prob be lost on your motor without someone showing me first.  Your engine and heater should be closed cooling but other than that, you can follow hoses from the intake on bottom of boat to the exhaust.  I thought everything after 2016 had little blue plugs labeled 1-? Making it super easy to drain everything.

[granddaddy55]

Best and worst day of my boating experience was my dealer divorce !

only had a 1year warranty and thank heaven for a basic Axis with the Indmar monsoon 330 and the Walter? Vdrive Tranny.  Couldn’t be any simpler and I’ve had s transom flush with my factory order so no mods needed and so we live down south and rarely if ever need to consider winterization

the only thing to make it better/easier would be a muffler delete for impeller changes but my boat is just not loud and don’t need an fae 

Edited October 13, 2018 by granddaddy55

[ahopkins22LSV]

We just had to replace the touch screen in our jeep (2014).. 1100 for the part. Yeah marine dealers are the worst. 

[Eagleboy99]

An associate just replaced the touch screen in his Nissan Pathfinder - $6000 CAD (4500 USD).  Thank Gawd for warranty!

[shawndoggy]

where is @The Hulk when you need him?  Hulk, you had this motor, right?  IIRC the 2012 LSA is raw water cooled saved for the closed cooling on the intercooler, right?

We know that's true here in fact, because the OP didn't have a heater core properly winterized last year.  If his boat were closed cooled, the heater circuit would be filled with antifreeze and no risk of freeze damage.

I'm not sure what the equivalent of a twelve pack is in orem (coupon to the custard place?  A box of donuts?), but I've found (on both sides of the transaction) that somebody showing up with a gesture of good will and asking for a little help usually goes a long way.

[shawndoggy]

4 hours ago, AaronMefford said:

The indmar manual talks about fresh water cooled and raw water cooled engines but never talks about which are which.

take a look at page 6-11 of your manual.

Quote

There is no closed cooling system available for the 6.2L LSA engine. This engine is not designed to be used in salt water.

no closed cooling, no heat exchanger.

[isellacuras]

6 hours ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

We just had to replace the touch screen in our jeep (2014).. 1100 for the part. Yeah marine dealers are the worst. 

You got hosed. I found mine refurbished from a reputable seller on eBay for $375

[Gavin17]

4 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

take a look at page 6-11 of your manual.

no closed cooling, no heat exchanger.

He said he had an anti freeze reservoir so his motor is partially closed cooled.

I'm guessing you do have a heat exchanger where your coolant meets your raw water supply.  Post photos of your engine and maybe we can help more.  

The heat exchanger looks like a metal tube with raw water hoses and coolant hoses going to it.  

 

[ahopkins22LSV]

4 hours ago, isellacuras said:

You got hosed. I found mine refurbished from a reputable seller on eBay for $375

My point is that it’s not like these boat parts are wayyyyy more then everyone makes it out to be.

[The Hulk]

8 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

where is @The Hulk when you need him?  Hulk, you had this motor, right?  IIRC the 2012 LSA is raw water cooled saved for the closed cooling on the intercooler, right?

We know that's true here in fact, because the OP didn't have a heater core properly winterized last year.  If his boat were closed cooled, the heater circuit would be filled with antifreeze and no risk of freeze damage.

I'm not sure what the equivalent of a twelve pack is in orem (coupon to the custard place?  A box of donuts?), but I've found (on both sides of the transaction) that somebody showing up with a gesture of good will and asking for a little help usually goes a long way.

Had a 2013 if that makes any difference, but I think your correct.. I do know that motor was difficult to winterize compared to others or so I was told, thus why I had it done by Marina, granted it was only once given that it was back and forth for service every other weekend until I upgraded given that infamous situation..  I did hear they eventually got that engine fixed up.. so someone has a pretty much new engine ha. 

Give Malibu a few years maybe we will get lucky and have an electronic switch that automatically opens a few valves to dump fresh water and your winterized with the push of a button! (Can't start engine unless closed) ... Wouldice when u want to keep the boat in for extended season or put in early without worrying about those cold nights.. also would be nice when u drop off to dealers late in season and cold weather hits early.. I do question at some places if they really do get to all boats in time... 

The easier they are to service is a bit of a double edge sword in the industry.. 

[shawndoggy]

4 hours ago, Gavin17 said:

He said he had an anti freeze reservoir so his motor is partially closed cooled.

I'm guessing you do have a heat exchanger where your coolant meets your raw water supply.  Post photos of your engine and maybe we can help more.  

The heat exchanger looks like a metal tube with raw water hoses and coolant hoses going to it.  

 

No that's wrong.  Ask hulk.  The antifreeze reservoir is for the intercooler for the supercharger.  The engine internals themselves are raw water cooled.

I mean the manual itself says so, and the OP lost a heater core.  How do you lose a heater core with a closed cooled engine?

Edited October 13, 2018 by shawndoggy

[The Hulk]

26 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

No that's wrong.  Ask hulk.  The antifreeze reservoir is for the intercooler for the supercharger.  The engine internals themselves are raw water cooled.

I mean the manual itself says so, and the OP lost a heater core.  How do you lose a heater core with a closed cooled engine?

Oh sorry yes it was for SC only which was a bit confusing, thus why I had it done because you also had to do heater's unlike newer boats with antifreeze running  through heater cores so yes heater also needs winterized...

Edited October 13, 2018 by The Hulk

[Gavin17]

14 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

No that's wrong.  Ask hulk.  The antifreeze reservoir is for the intercooler for the supercharger.  The engine internals themselves are raw water cooled.

I mean the manual itself says so, and the OP lost a heater core.  How do you lose a heater core with a closed cooled engine?

Cool thanks for the info.  

Then it sounds like this boat will be winterized like most all other inboards.  Drain the block, Drain the exhaust manifolds drain any accessories like heater or shower, then add rv antifreeze if desired? 

 

[Gavin17]

@AaronMefford  Have you figured this out yet.  Please post if you do, I'm curious and just want to learn.  

I bought my winterizing supplies today.  (I'm not using them yet, just want to be ready)  Total for all fluids, oil filter and antifreeze was sub $50.