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Gara

Increasingly hard turnover as engine runs longer '02 Response with LS 1

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Gara

Turns over and starts right away when cold.  Usually shut it down between skiers if they are taking some time.  Gets harder and harder to turn over as time goes by.  Normally skiing for about 90 minutes.  It's the first crank -- almost like a starter or battery, but both seem fine when cold.  After 20 minutes of getting it on the trailer and into my driveway to clean and flush the engine, it starts up fine.  Not losing antifreeze and oil is fine (no water).  Help welcome.

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96Response

Could very well be a starter. Selonoid on the starter may be bad or even thermal breakdown of the wingdings of the starter motor. Also check the timing, this will make a hard engine hard to start as well. I had a starter on my Starter on my Camaro that would do the same thing you have going on. 

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justgary
5 minutes ago, Gara said:

 -- almost like a starter or battery, but both seem fine when cold. 

Ummmm, is it the starter or battery?

Your starter could be ready for a rebuild.  The brushes wear down and spray carbon dust all around, packing the gaps between the commutator contacts.  This eventually allows current to flow through the wrong sets of armature coils, dramatically reducing the torque the starter produces.  Cleaning it is something you can do yourself, since it likely doesn't need new bearings or anything.

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Falko

hard starting only when hot would be the starter.

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UWSkier

And the MalibuCrew throbbing brain of knowledge nails another one...  :)

I'll probably swap my starter in the next year also as it's acting weak-ish.  Starts fine, but feels like it's working a bit.

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drh

I have almost the same problem and I was thinking it could be the starter too. It's like an intermittent hard start after the boat warms up. Never happens first start of the day. Kinda sounds like the engine hits a compression stroke and starter has a hard time overcoming.

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formulaben

.....aaand since it wasn't specifically stated above, if you decide to replace it make sure you buy a marine grade starter.  It is spark protected and ensures you don't go boom one day when you happen to get a fuel leak.  The alternator and starter are one of the few engine components that is critical that it be marine grade.

http://blog.seastarsolutions.com/2014/11/24/marine-starter-vs-automotive-starter/

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96Response

YES YES YES, Even though its tempting to swap the starter and Alternator for Automotive DO NOT !!! I had a very interesting discussion with a Coast Guard official whom explained to me that if you were involved in any accident at all being your fault or not and it caused any injuries you can and most likely would be held responsible for that. He used a good example, he said if your boat were to have a fire and damaged anything on the boat or boats or properties round you that you are 100% in fault. He told me that he had a issue were a boat caught fire and When they were called in by the insurance company to investigate a cause, they found that someone had removed the spark arrester (air cleaner) and used an auto style one. They were fined, denied insurance claim and were taken to court and had to pay for all damages to the dock and the boats around them, plus the cost of extraction, hall out and waste in the lake  clean up. Cant even imagine that bill. 

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85 Barefoot

I think heat soak can be a legitimate explanation for difference between hot and cold, but you may also want to consider replacing battery terminals and cables all the way to starter.  16 years is a while, and they do break down internally.

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Michigan boarder

Timing might be too far advanced, has it been checked?  When we did my engine it would fire up but when we advanced the timing it became very hard to start.  The dyno place used as MSD distributor at full advance (34 BTDC) but the starter with a 110v hooked up to the engine.

...and my battery ended up being toast too.

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85 Barefoot
15 hours ago, Michigan boarder said:

Timing might be too far advanced, has it been checked?  When we did my engine it would fire up but when we advanced the timing it became very hard to start.  The dyno place used as MSD distributor at full advance (34 BTDC) but the starter with a 110v hooked up to the engine.

...and my battery ended up being toast too.

how could Op's LS1 have gotten advanced?

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Michigan boarder
5 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

how could Op's LS1 have gotten advanced?

I don't know, I know nothing about LS1's, but the symptoms sounded like what I had experienced.

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Nitrousbird
23 hours ago, 96Response said:

Also check the timing, this will make a hard engine hard to start as well.  

 

15 hours ago, Michigan boarder said:

Timing might be too far advanced, has it been checked? 

LS1's are GEN-III small blocks, not GEN-I stuff.  Coil near plug setup; timing is all controlled by the ECU - you don't set the timing unless you reprogram the ECU. 

As for the issue at hand, if - when warm - it seems like it is cranking really slow or struggling to crank, go straight to the starter and replace it.  That's assuming you have good battery voltage, which one would expect if the boat had been running for a while and is fine when cold without charging the battery externally.

Edited by Nitrousbird

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wdr

Agree with the above posted, but I would go straight to the solenoid. I had the exact same issues and when I pulled the starter apart it was more or less like new internally, with little carbon build up. The solenoid on the other hand was, which is supposedly a sealed unit was a rusty, sloppy mess. Discounting the solenoid first is an easy job that could save you a number of bucks. I had the local rebuild place do mine.

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Gara

Thanks all, will report back.  Great info.

Don't know if it could be connected and I was going to start a separate thread, but I do have a very strong smell of gas in the boat after it sits in the driveway for a day.  Like when you lift up the cover, you get a buzz if you stick your head in there.  With the cover off, don't notice anything.  No obvious leaks, but something is off.  Obviously I run the blower before starting BUT there really isn't a smell in the engine compartment.  

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96Response

Is this a Carbed engine? if so than your floats or needle valve and seat are sticking open and fuel is just trickling out the Carb. Time for a Carb rebuild. Also when the engine is warm, hoe are you starting it? seems like a stupid question but allot of younger guys dont know how to properly start a engine warm that has a Carb. 

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UWSkier
On 10/5/2018 at 5:47 AM, Gara said:

Thanks all, will report back.  Great info.

Don't know if it could be connected and I was going to start a separate thread, but I do have a very strong smell of gas in the boat after it sits in the driveway for a day.  Like when you lift up the cover, you get a buzz if you stick your head in there.  With the cover off, don't notice anything.  No obvious leaks, but something is off.  Obviously I run the blower before starting BUT there really isn't a smell in the engine compartment.  

Ever find this?  I'm about to tear into my '01 looking for the same thing.  After I fill the tank, I notice a bit of gas smell, especially in the trunk if I leave it closed up for a couple days.  I suspect the sending unit gasket as those are known to go south.  No fuel in bilge and the smell definitely seems to come from back by the tank.

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Bozboat
2 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

Ever find this?  I'm about to tear into my '01 looking for the same thing.  After I fill the tank, I notice a bit of gas smell, especially in the trunk if I leave it closed up for a couple days.  I suspect the sending unit gasket as those are known to go south.  No fuel in bilge and the smell definitely seems to come from back by the tank.

I had this problem a few months ago

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Gara

No luck finding the source of the smell.

But on the starter issue, i went to start it today and it just spun and spun.  After about ten tries it partially engaged the crankshaft, then it fully engaged and started normally.  So it seems like not the solenoid, right? More the starter?

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Bozboat
On 10/20/2018 at 7:49 PM, Gara said:

No luck finding the source of the smell.

But on the starter issue, i went to start it today and it just spun and spun.  After about ten tries it partially engaged the crankshaft, then it fully engaged and started normally.  So it seems like not the solenoid, right? More the starter?

Yes, replace starter with a new or have the old one rebuilt. Make sure to get a marine starter.

starters are not expensive and easy to replace

Edited by Bozboat

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drh

Check out all your connections both on the starter solenoid and the starter relay. Sounds like you may have some corrosion on the back of the solenoid allowing voltage to bypass the solenoid and go straight to the starter contact. This is what would cause your starter to spin without engaging the flywheel. I think that symptom points more to corrosion or a solenoid issue than a starter issue.

I experienced a similar problem a couple of times where the starter would "stick" after letting go of the key once the engine was running. I could hear it still spinning freely and couldn't get it to stop even after cutting the engine - had to disconnect the battery. Cleaned up all the connectors, studs and washers (on the solenoid and relay) with a wire brush and sandpaper and never had the problem again.

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Gara

Excellent, thanks. I cleaned it, no problems today, though I've only tried a few times.  

I also have to figure out whether I can lubricate the bendix on the starter without removing it, as this is something the previous owner did consistently.

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