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No Start Troubleshooting


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Had a suggestion to check pin connections at ECM. I would like to pull the ECM to check all pin connections. Other than turning battery switch to off is there anything else I need to look out for  before messing with the ECM? Or is this a bad Idea? Have not even looked at it yet so don't know if it is just quick connects plugging it in or what ever.

Bringing to the dealer won't happen till after season here. I'm sure it would be same as above , think its fixed till it isn't. Some where losing the start signal between button and starter lug.

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On 8/2/2022 at 3:41 PM, dalt1 said:

Had a suggestion to check pin connections at ECM. I would like to pull the ECM to check all pin connections. Other than turning battery switch to off is there anything else I need to look out for  before messing with the ECM? Or is this a bad Idea? Have not even looked at it yet so don't know if it is just quick connects plugging it in or what ever.

Bringing to the dealer won't happen till after season here. I'm sure it would be same as above , think its fixed till it isn't. Some where losing the start signal between button and starter lug.

To answer my own question since I got no replies. Just pulled the release and opened box above the ECM. All pins look good and clean. Re seated and unseated a couple times to hope make better contact if that was an issue. Still had several failed starts on the lake yesterday. Use my jump switch so no worries there. Very random, had to jump for first 3 or 4 starts then next 3 the start button worked fine.

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13 hours ago, dalt1 said:

To answer my own question since I got no replies. Just pulled the release and opened box above the ECM. All pins look good and clean. Re seated and unseated a couple times to hope make better contact if that was an issue. Still had several failed starts on the lake yesterday. Use my jump switch so no worries there. Very random, had to jump for first 3 or 4 starts then next 3 the start button worked fine.

Have you tried swapping relays?  I had a bad starter relay on a prior boat and it would intermittently work and not work like (I think) you are describing.  Turn key and fuel pump would prime but no crank.  Swapped fuel and starter relays and I'd get no prime but crank.  Replaced with $4.50 amazon chinese "waterproof" relay and was back in business (PCM uses standard bosch style 5 pin relays).

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On 7/26/2022 at 1:07 PM, dalt1 said:

Have not been able to Verify this yet as only had 1 fail and jump switch use so far.

Intermittent as heck. May start fine all next weekend! Time will tell again. Probably limp her through till off season. Then in for warranty.

Does the fact that the backup key not work either when failed, rule out the button switch as issue? 

Got this convenient now so will be easy to jump.image.png.76e36e9044bdae493e08b5c2714056a2.png

which connections are you jumping here?  It's a momentary switch?

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This is how I understand the start stop button and keyswitch works in the 2016-2019 Malibu boats.

The start stop button on the dash allows the grey/black wire from the dash buss ground that goes to the button #4 connector to go to the #3 connector with the red/black wire (when pressed) and send that ground signal to the viper control box 16 pin connector.  The start stop request is communicated via CAN #1 to the engine ECM.  You can see if the viper is receiving the signal from the start stop button and transmitting it on CAN 1 by looking at the System Diagnostics screen in the viper settings menu while pressing and releasing the button.

A corrupted data signal from the viper to the engine can be caused by damaged wires, bad connections, or a faulty module on CAN 1 which includes the engine ECM, paddlewheel, GPS, and the Viper controller.  This can prevent the ECM from receiving the start request.

The emergency start keyswitch gets power from its breaker panel, and when the key is turned to the start position, it sends system voltage down the yellow/red wire along the deck harness, to the B1 connector plug by the subwoofer, down the starboard stringer on that harness, to pin G on the round engine adaptor plug near the transmission, and to pin 2 on the rectangular engine harness plug.  From there it goes to pin 86 on the ECM plug.

When a start request is made along the CAN, or from the keyswitch, the ECM determines if the starter should crank (e.g. Is the engine already running or not) and the ECM sends a ground from pin 34 on a different yellow/red wire to the E/#86 terminal of the starter relay in the engine relay/fuse box to energize it.  The relay receives system voltage through the 20 amp starter fuse and red wire to the D/#30 terminal on the relay, and system voltage from the purple wire of the engine ignition circuit goes through the neutral safety switch and provides voltage along the yellow/black wire to the G/#85 terminal of the relay when the shift lever is in neutral.  The N/#87 terminal of the relay sends voltage to the starter solenoid along another yellow/red wire to engage the starter.  I have seen this last wire colored white/blue a couple of times.

If there is a problem with the neutral safety circuit, or any grounds, the starter relay can't be energized using the start stop button or the keyswitch. 

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On 8/8/2022 at 7:35 AM, shawndoggy said:

Have you tried swapping relays?  I had a bad starter relay on a prior boat and it would intermittently work and not work like (I think) you are describing.  Turn key and fuel pump would prime but no crank.  Swapped fuel and starter relays and I'd get no prime but crank.  Replaced with $4.50 amazon chinese "waterproof" relay and was back in business (PCM uses standard bosch style 5 pin relays).

Yep bought new relay from Oreilly Auto parts about a month ago. No change.

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On 8/8/2022 at 7:38 AM, shawndoggy said:

which connections are you jumping here?  It's a momentary switch?

That is an old Snap On jumper switch. Alligator clamps to the 2 wires directly to the starter. Push hold till she fires. Works every time when button doesn't. Haven't tried to just give it a quick push and see if she keeps cranking till fires. But she fires almost immediately anyway.

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On 8/8/2022 at 4:08 PM, csleaver said:

This is how I understand the start stop button and keyswitch works in the 2016-2019 Malibu boats.

The start stop button on the dash allows the grey/black wire from the dash buss ground that goes to the button #4 connector to go to the #3 connector with the red/black wire (when pressed) and send that ground signal to the viper control box 16 pin connector.  The start stop request is communicated via CAN #1 to the engine ECM.  You can see if the viper is receiving the signal from the start stop button and transmitting it on CAN 1 by looking at the System Diagnostics screen in the viper settings menu while pressing and releasing the button.

A corrupted data signal from the viper to the engine can be caused by damaged wires, bad connections, or a faulty module on CAN 1 which includes the engine ECM, paddlewheel, GPS, and the Viper controller.  This can prevent the ECM from receiving the start request.

The emergency start keyswitch gets power from its breaker panel, and when the key is turned to the start position, it sends system voltage down the yellow/red wire along the deck harness, to the B1 connector plug by the subwoofer, down the starboard stringer on that harness, to pin G on the round engine adaptor plug near the transmission, and to pin 2 on the rectangular engine harness plug.  From there it goes to pin 86 on the ECM plug.

When a start request is made along the CAN, or from the keyswitch, the ECM determines if the starter should crank (e.g. Is the engine already running or not) and the ECM sends a ground from pin 34 on a different yellow/red wire to the E/#86 terminal of the starter relay in the engine relay/fuse box to energize it.  The relay receives system voltage through the 20 amp starter fuse and red wire to the D/#30 terminal on the relay, and system voltage from the purple wire of the engine ignition circuit goes through the neutral safety switch and provides voltage along the yellow/black wire to the G/#85 terminal of the relay when the shift lever is in neutral.  The N/#87 terminal of the relay sends voltage to the starter solenoid along another yellow/red wire to engage the starter.  I have seen this last wire colored white/blue a couple of times.

If there is a problem with the neutral safety circuit, or any grounds, the starter relay can't be energized using the start stop button or the keyswitch. 

So does the fact that the key will not start it either help eliminate any of these possible scenarios.

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If the key will not start the engine, I would check:

. The neutral safety circuit.

. The relay connection and operation.

. The keyswitch to engine harness connector.

. The engine harness to ECM connector.

. ECM to relay ground signal.

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  • 9 months later...
On 7/28/2022 at 9:05 PM, Farmdog said:

We have 2020 25 LSV that we bought used last year with about 30 hours on it. We had a few issues with it starting last year and had it back to the dealer a couple times to fix it. So far this year it had been pretty good. This week for family vacation the first day took a little while at the ramp to get it to start. Didn’t find and loose wires but eventually got it to start. That was on Monday. Then today had it running this morning and came into the marina and wouldn’t start. Wiggled and checked everything I could and didn’t find anything. So got to tow it the ramp for the 3rd time in the year we have owned it. Dealer has it now to check out. The dealership has been great in trying to figure it out. Last year they did find the battery position switch was cracked and we figured that was the problem but here we are again. 

This topic is a problem that can be narrowed down to the start stop safety switch in the shift handle, I just had the very same problem on my 2020 m240. My problem is it was NOT under warranty because I’m the third owner. 

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  • 2 months later...

@Bubbasboy would you please elaborate on the start stop safety switch.  I am getting ignition fuse blown sporadically while moving from fwd/ntrl/reverse.  There is a short somewhere that I cannot find.  I keep extra fuses onboard but tough when coming into dock.  Thanks. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Yesterday I diagnosed my start problem down to the wiring between ignition switch and starter.  Power comes on to dash but engine will not crank when moving switch to start position.  I ran a jumper wire from the start post on switch to the starter solenoid and now it starts.  Has anyone traced this wire to see how to replace?  Is there anything else I need to check in the wiring run from switch to solenoid?   ‘05 RLXi w 340 monsoon.  Thanks. 

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3 hours ago, lrust said:

Yesterday I diagnosed my start problem down to the wiring between ignition switch and starter.  Power comes on to dash but engine will not crank when moving switch to start position.

Running a new wire wouldn't be difficult but did you check the continuity for "start" on the switch itself?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Yes, I checked the switch and even replaced.  Still fighting this issue. Is there a fuse or junction connection somewhere that could be intermittent?   Problem went away then reappeared. 

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10 hours ago, lrust said:

Yes, I checked the switch and even replaced.  Still fighting this issue. Is there a fuse or junction connection somewhere that could be intermittent?   Problem went away then reappeared. 

The engine harness connector on the starboard side aft of the manifold could have a cruddy connection, especially if you have the split pin Cannon type plug.

Remove the connector, then carefully clean and inspect both parts for bent or pushed pins or sockets.  If you have split male pins, use a small blade and gently spread the tips to get better contact.  Dab a tiny bit of grease on each one and reinstall the connector.

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On 8/20/2023 at 11:56 AM, lrust said:

Yesterday I diagnosed my start problem down to the wiring between ignition switch and starter.  Power comes on to dash but engine will not crank when moving switch to start position.  I ran a jumper wire from the start post on switch to the starter solenoid and now it starts.  Has anyone traced this wire to see how to replace?  Is there anything else I need to check in the wiring run from switch to solenoid?   ‘05 RLXi w 340 monsoon.  Thanks. 

that wire does NOT run from the ign sw to the starter.  

that wire controls a relay at the engine which pulls in the solenoid. i'd bet a dollar to a donut that the relay is shot.

continue on the path you are on and you will burn up the ign switch. it's not built to carry that much electrical load.

there are similar three relays there are three relays that are similar (aft of engine, above front of transmission, under a metal plate).

swap them around and see if that problem moves.

Edited by tvano
esl
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I’m having a problem starting, and have tested so many things. If I turn the key and the starter gets 14v and doesn’t do anything, it has to be the starter itself that needs replaced, right? 

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9 hours ago, LS1boarder said:

I’m having a problem starting, and have tested so many things. If I turn the key and the starter gets 14v and doesn’t do anything, it has to be the starter itself that needs replaced, right? 

i'm not one of those guys that has background w engines that are installed backwards so please take w a grain of salt: starters are easy to remove (in dd boats).  disconnect the battery cables at the battery, pull two bolts and the starter will drop into your left hand.  take a pix of wiring prior to disconnecting then take the starter to your local shop for testing.

DO NOT REPLACE THE STARTER W A CAR STARTER.  the marinized version has spark suppression to keep the noise down.  as much as i like black eyed peas you really don't want to hear that boom boom boom.

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1 hour ago, tvano said:

i'm not one of those guys that has background w engines that are installed backwards so please take w a grain of salt: starters are easy to remove (in dd boats). 

lol. It's easy to get one out of a v-drive boat too. You just can't have a beer in one hand like you can on a direct drive. 

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10 hours ago, LS1boarder said:

I’m having a problem starting, and have tested so many things. If I turn the key and the starter gets 14v and doesn’t do anything, it has to be the starter itself that needs replaced, right? 

Provided that you cleaned and checked the battery connections, then cleaned and checked the engine ground and primary starter lug connection.  Where were your meter leads connected when you found 14v?

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3 hours ago, tvano said:

DO NOT REPLACE THE STARTER W A CAR STARTER.  the marinized version has spark suppression to keep the noise down.  as much as i like black eyed peas you really don't want to hear that boom boom boom.

:lol: Always a good reminder.  :thumbup:

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21 hours ago, justgary said:

Provided that you cleaned and checked the battery connections, then cleaned and checked the engine ground and primary starter lug connection.  Where were your meter leads connected when you found 14v?

This was on the smaller wire on the starter solenoid. The larger wire had constant power and the smaller wire only had 14v when attempting to start. 

 

22 hours ago, tvano said:

i'm not one of those guys that has background w engines that are installed backwards so please take w a grain of salt: starters are easy to remove (in dd boats).  disconnect the battery cables at the battery, pull two bolts and the starter will drop into your left hand.  take a pix of wiring prior to disconnecting then take the starter to your local shop for testing.

DO NOT REPLACE THE STARTER W A CAR STARTER.  the marinized version has spark suppression to keep the noise down.  as much as i like black eyed peas you really don't want to hear that boom boom boom.

To be honest, I almost did try to replace with a car starter. I called Indmar and they said theirs is machined to fit the bell housing so I needed theirs. With family coming to town this weekend, I found the Indmar one in VA yesterday and it should be here in an hour. I hope this fixes it! 

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2 hours ago, LS1boarder said:

This was on the smaller wire on the starter solenoid. The larger wire had constant power and the smaller wire only had 14v when attempting to start. 

But you didn't say if that 14v is referenced to the battery lug, the engine ground, or the case of the starter itself.  If you have a bad ground wire, testing voltage from the battery lug only isn't enough.  If your 14v was referenced to the starter case, I would agree that your starter needs work.

By the way, if the starter is bad it likely just has carbon buildup from the brushes wearing.  It is pretty easy to clean it yourself.

 

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