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Direct injection motor available in the 19 LSV?


Sailvi767

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30 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

 I’m not worried about resale as us on here are a part of the 1% that even have the small glimpse into what will be offered in the future or know the difference between a 2019 6.0 monsoon or a 2020 whatever liter monsoon.  

Bingo, only a small handful will even be aware of a difference and it will not affect resale at all.  It will be the same as the diamond or the wake hull, when I bought my 2008 VLX I was told not having the wake hull would affect resale value and of the 10 people that inquired about the boat when it was for sale not one person asked which hull it had. Also if you are buying used you typically can't be that picky as there are not that many Bu's to choose from. @Nitrousbird

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Just a mention on carbon buildup. It was a issue on some first generation DI engines. It’s pretty much a non factor now and has not been a problem in any way on the PCM DI engines based on the 6.2. 

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On 8/26/2018 at 11:31 PM, Sailvi767 said:

Has Malibu posted any stats on their version of the engine yet?

I am sure they will post stats soon but if you want to know the actual dyno results of the new Malibu DI engines you can look at the CA air resource webpage to see their certification results: 

The 6.2 makes 301KW/403HP

The 5.3 makes 261KW/350HP

 

Basically the same horsepower ratings of the outgoing ford. And just an FYI. You can view the actual horsepower numbers of the Ford engines on the Indmar web page.   https://www.indmar.com/

u-w-034-0004.pdf

Edited by Tims
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5 hours ago, Sailvi767 said:

Just a mention on carbon buildup. It was a issue on some first generation DI engines. It’s pretty much a non factor now and has not been a problem in any way on the PCM DI engines based on the 6.2. 

How many hours are on these engines not having carbon build up?

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50 minutes ago, Fman said:

How many hours are on these engines not having carbon build up?

There have been sporadic issues with carbon buildup on the GM engines, but for the most part they seem to stay pretty clean compared some other brands offerings. More efficient PCV systems likely have a big impact to long term carbon build up. Of course the best way to ensure that valves stay clean is to go with the duel port/DI setup like Toyota and Ford. What sucks to me is you don't get any real benefit going with new DI offerings from GM marine. The new DI 6.2 has the same power as the old LS3, but you get the added complexity/cost to deal with over the long haul. No thanks.

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On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 8:32 PM, Cazan said:

This will be a Malibu built engine correct?  Not Indmar?

Yes, Malibu is marinizing their own engines now. They will slowly ne rolled out throughout the model year beginning with the 25., I wouldn't bank on seeing any 5.3L until next summer in the US.

Edited by ConnollyCrew
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4 hours ago, Tims said:

There have been sporadic issues with carbon buildup on the GM engines, but for the most part they seem to stay pretty clean compared some other brands offerings. More efficient PCV systems likely have a big impact to long term carbon build up. Of course the best way to ensure that valves stay clean is to go with the duel port/DI setup like Toyota and Ford. What sucks to me is you don't get any real benefit going with new DI offerings from GM marine. The new DI 6.2 has the same power as the old LS3, but you get the added complexity/cost to deal with over the long haul. No thanks.

Look g at the post above yours there does appear to be a big benefit the 410 Raptor was only rated around 350 HP in the CARB tests so looks like a 50 + hp gain.

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14 hours ago, Sailvi767 said:

Just a mention on carbon buildup. It was a issue on some first generation DI engines. It’s pretty much a non factor now and has not been a problem in any way on the PCM DI engines based on the 6.2. 

Yep, going from wall guided to spray guided injection.  I would say the problem has been dramatically reduced.  Engine oil upgrades have also dramatically helped too.

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8 hours ago, Tims said:

There have been sporadic issues with carbon buildup on the GM engines, but for the most part they seem to stay pretty clean compared some other brands offerings. More efficient PCV systems likely have a big impact to long term carbon build up. Of course the best way to ensure that valves stay clean is to go with the duel port/DI setup like Toyota and Ford. What sucks to me is you don't get any real benefit going with new DI offerings from GM marine. The new DI 6.2 has the same power as the old LS3, but you get the added complexity/cost to deal with over the long haul. No thanks.

the PFI / GDI combo is done for cold start emissions firstly and secondly for performance benefits.  Very limited to do with DI IVD build up.

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25 minutes ago, Five Cent Worth said:

the PFI / GDI combo is done for cold start emissions firstly and secondly for performance benefits.  Very limited to do with DI IVD build up.

Pretty soon we will have soot traps for the GDI motors. Got to love it. 

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4 hours ago, Sailvi767 said:

Look g at the post above yours there does appear to be a big benefit the 410 Raptor was only rated around 350 HP in the CARB tests so looks like a 50 + hp gain.

If you are comparing base GM motor to base Ford motor then no such gain. The premium fuel Indmar 6.2 actually has more power than the 6.2 DI GM offering. Let's just say that there is probably no real power advantage.  The best part of going to the GM block is the smaller package, which should make maintenance easier. I am really hoping that Malibu is going to have a super slick winterization process. 

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3 hours ago, KJKimball said:

Sailvi767,

"The base 6.2 liter in the Nautique line is the H6 which PCM rates at 450HP"  Actually, it is their premium engine not base, advertised at 450hp but PCM rated it at 396hp in the data they submitted to the government.  Even at 396hp, it makes more power than their 6.0LHO also advertised at 450hp but only makes 379hp. 

Model names of the engines can be confusing since the boat companies do take liberties with how they advertise HP of the engines.  Using the 2018/19 California Air Research board (CARB) numbers is the best way to compare the ACTUAL engine HP from each model.  All data submitted to CARB is equal to the data submitted to EPA.  All the engines are tested on EPA certified dynos that test within 1% of each other so there is no variation due to equipment differences.  CARB and EPA tests are run on the same high octane, ethanol free fuel at each test lab so there is no difference in the fuel used as some sales people have pitched in the past.  The list below has the currently available engines grouped for easy comparison.   

Brand     model#     hp     torque

5.7L equivalent engines:

Indmar     400        355     404 (Monsoon 410)

Malibu    5.3LDI     355     N/A

PCM        H5          347      385

6.0L equivalent engines:

Indmar     440        404     427 (monsoon 450)

PCM        409         368      341

PCM       450HO    379      351

6.2L equivalent engines:

Indmar     460        415    450 (Not offered by Malibu)

Malibu    6.2LDI     409     N/A

PCM        H6          396      460

Supercharged engines:

Indmar     575       517      580

PCM         555       514      493

Once you start throwing different gear ratios into the mix, the performance changes but HP and torque do not.  Using 1.72:1 or 2:1 ratios allows lower hp engines to move heavy boats.  Using lower pitch props allow lower hp engines to plane heavy boats at the expense of top speed and fuel economy.  Larger diameter, slower turning props are more efficient in boats, airplanes and windmills.  This is why a 2:1 ratio with 17" prop helps a 396hp engine "feel" like the 450hp engine it is advertised to be.

Numbers are good for the basics but as you are saying just so much more!  HP and Torque as a package makes things work neater is good on its own. Its all a package and trans, gearing, prop, hull and of course the weight people are using all becomes A big variable. But HP and torque must happen in an RPM / speed range required for the use.  If the two don't work in the range needed its nearly useless. Now try to make it all work in an area that is fuel efficient.

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I hear there are some test boats running around (not 25 LSV) with the new motor. Id love to see one, I hear they've done some cool stuff to make maintenance easier. I also heard they are very quiet.

Edited by COOP
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15 hours ago, Tims said:

If you are comparing base GM motor to base Ford motor then no such gain. The premium fuel Indmar 6.2 actually has more power than the 6.2 DI GM offering. Let's just say that there is probably no real power advantage.  The best part of going to the GM block is the smaller package, which should make maintenance easier. I am really hoping that Malibu is going to have a super slick winterization process. 

Just curious, what would you consider super slick?

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1 hour ago, COOP said:

Just curious, what would you consider super slick?

 Open a valve and all raw water systems drain out in a couple of minutes. AND, easy access to all strainers and filters. 

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Well, let me just say off the record.... Strainers and filter easy access, check. Raw water impeller easy access, check. 

 

As far as the single valve, merc has this, and in my experience if the boats always on a lake its fine. But if your on a river or like to beach you boat sucking stuff in builds up in these systems and they wont drain properly.

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18 hours ago, COOP said:

Just curious, what would you consider super slick?

What I would consider super slick would be like an outboard or PWC, do nothing.  The water self drains when the engine is shut off.

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Using the best sources I can find and trying to compare with like testing methods this is what I found on the Ford verses GM.

6.2 Ford 410 Raptor 353HP

6.2 Ford 450 Raptor 396HP

6.2 DI GM initial malibu engine offering 414HP

Edited by Sailvi767
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48 minutes ago, Sailvi767 said:

Using the best sources I can find and trying to compare with like testing methods this is what I found on the Ford verses GM.

6.2 Ford 410 Raptor 353HP

6.2 Ford 450 Raptor 396HP

6.2 DI GM initial malibu engine offering 414HP

You forgot the 6.2 Ford 460 Raptor 415HP

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7 minutes ago, Sailvi767 said:

I did not know that was a option on the Malibu’s. Still I would prefer the DI motor and not having 16 spark plugs.

Sailvi767,

Your numbers may be off for some reason.  Look several posts up for the one with the engines grouped in colored text.  There you can see the PCM and malibu 5.3L DI would compare to the Raptor 400(aka monsoon 410).  Your comparison of the 400(410) against the malibu premium engine isn't a matched pair.  The 5.3L will be the entry level engine as it is for PCM.  the 6.0L the middle engine and the 6.2DI as the premium engine upgrade.  The LSA will be sold against the 575.  Malibu didn't take the 460 Raptor but that doesn't change the fact that the 460 was created to market against the 6.2DI from PCM and Ilmor and now Malibu.  

The colored values I posted are the EPA/CARB official power values for 2019 as submitted by indmar  and by malibu.  Think volkswagen EPA fines here.  The engine companies are sure to give the EPA and CARB accurate data or face $42,500.00 in fines for every engine plus jail time for those who submitted the inaccurate data.  The point is, the data on the CARB site is gonna be right even if sales folks spin it in other ways.  https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/cert.php?eng_id=SIME&year=2019

I hear ya' about the 16 plugs.  On the other hand, I know a guy with a wake school in orlando with a 460 in a Supra SA.  He is over 1200 hours on it and hasn't had to change a spark plug yet.  DI allows for higher compression ratios since the fuel will help cool the chamber but it requires 2000+psi fuel pressure from a high pressure pump.  That high pressure pump still requires being fed with the 60psi pump in the tank so with a DI engine, you have a fuel pump in the tank and one on the engine bumping the fuel pressure from 60 up to over 2000psi so it can be shot into the cylinder.  DI really isn't a new concept since Diesel engines use it.  It is just newer to gas engines like the Gen 5 GM V8s and the ecoboost engines from Ford.  It does seem most new engine designs are headed to PFDI which has 2 fuel delivery systems, one in the port(PF) and one in the cylinder(DI) which means 2 injectors per cylinder.  That seems way more complicated and and expensive than 2 spark plugs per cylinder both run off of the same coil.  

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I have been calling the 6.2DI motor a base engine because it’s the base motor in the G23 which is the boat I am shopping against the 23LSV. Looks like Malibu is going to get a little more power out of it verses the Nautique PCM. One other consideration is that in the Nautique the numbers are based on 87 octane. Not sure what Malibu is requiring. It’s frustrating that they are selling 2019’s but can’t even tell you what the engine options are going to be. My experience with the H6 motor in the Nautique is that it’s a great engine and performed right with the Raptor 450 in my LSV while pushing 2400lbs more weight. 

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No. All the carb numbers are based on Test fuel by law. Pcm advertises 450hp but submitted 396hp to the government. That 396hp was made on test 93 octane fuel non ethanol not 87E10 so clearly it can’t make 450 on cheap gas. 5.3L is the base engine but not many are sold so they use the 6.2 and charge for it. The 5.3 and 6.2 are the same basic engine except for displacement but they can charge more for 6.2.  The hull differences as well as drag of the wedge compared to the help of the NCRS allows for more weight in the g23.  Glen at Otown ran a g23 with 15” prop, 1.5:1 gear for several hundred hours hauling 1500lb more and planed in less time than the boat did with the 450.  If you could swap the engine in your boat and the g23, the g23 would most likely still out do the lsv. 

The H6 and 440 will both pull timing about the same amount when using 87 octane instead of 89. 

Edited by KJKimball
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