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Ethanol Gas?


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8 hours ago, Bozboat said:

I’ll try again 

I have an 19 year old small block chebby 350 that has been lightly rebranded as an Indmar Monsoon 325

it is unique only to the extent that is one of the most common engines ever made.

I asked about E15, as in 15% corn 85% gas. I get that it will be harder on my boat engine, probably to the same extent that my lawn mower and weed wackier expire prematurely. 

I was thinking of mixing AV gas from the local airport with the Corn Pops at the local Valero station to see if that helps.

What other choice do I have to keep alive?

One point of concern could be, as pointed out above by @MLA, that E15 has less BTUs.  In an engine like yours, with no A/F feedback (no O2 sensor), it will just go leaner.  But, when I measured my '00 Monsoon with a wide band O2 sensor, it was waaaaaay rich, so it's probably not a problem. 

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99 Response. EFI.

I only use E free for the 1st and last tank of the year. 

89 the rest of the year.

I don’t buy any gas at the grocery store or warehouse club pumps.

I use Stabil if I think my tank might last a more than a week or two.

Since I started with Stabil, no problems with any small engines or the pontoon outboard.

 

 

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On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:06 AM, williemon said:

Corn fuel for older boats will cause deterioration of rubber parts and hoses especially if they sit for a while. You pretty much need to perform various maintenance twice or three times as often. Once rubber parts deteriorate, they deposit their pieces in injectors and carbs so they have to be cleaned more often. Systems used often and with less or no rubber will perform better with less maintence. 

My 1970 Winner outboard still has the original Mercury fuel hose.  Every few years I cut an inch off to check for breakdown. I also check the internal lines.  Nothing.  If it did start, pieces would end up in the fuel filter, which is clear. Not the carbs.  I did rebuild my fuel pump this past summer and one of the two rubber check valve discs was deformed, the other (on the colder side) was fine. Not bad after 31 seasons and 1250 hours. 1988 motor.

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I was running ethanol free but flushed it out and replaced with e10.  One note that I learned during troubleshooting my hot starting issue this spring was that most older boats did not come with fuel line designed for ethanol.  Ethanol can cause degradation of that line and it gums things up, particularly for folks like me who run a carb'd boat.  

I swapped all of my fuel line with ethanol rated line in about an hour and for $25 bucks.  Otherwise I've had no impact from Ethanol vs non.  I do put in Stabil fuel treatment.  

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I need a new prop cause my heavier riding and skating ballast is chauking up the money at $.50-.75 per gallon more  for e0  91 and is now starting to add up combined with the 30-50% more fuel burn, might switch to 89 till I get prop 

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On 8/11/2018 at 11:04 PM, Bozboat said:

I’ll try again 

I have an 19 year old small block chebby 350 that has been lightly rebranded as an Indmar Monsoon 325

it is unique only to the extent that is one of the most common engines ever made.

I asked about E15, as in 15% corn 85% gas. I get that it will be harder on my boat engine, probably to the same extent that my lawn mower and weed wackier expire prematurely. 

I was thinking of mixing AV gas from the local airport with the Corn Pops at the local Valero station to see if that helps.

What other choice do I have to keep alive?

Carbed or FI?

Ethanol has about 30% less energy than gas. You are running 15% ethanol, which would equate then to about 4.5% less energy. I think you'll be fine on the mix. The issue with the smaller engines is oil wash from the cylinder walls. It isn't as prominent a problem with the bigger engines as the oiling systems are different. The smaller two strokes, run them a hair richer on oil, like 47:1 vs 50:1. 

The whole ethanol mix thing is a bit of a farce. Yes it is an oxygenating fuel and helps combustion, but there are a lot of combustion side products that are pretty bad coming out the exhaust. Everyone cites pure ethanol cleanliness, which is true, but when mixed with gas the side reactions cause more harm than good. 

On a side note, I ran pure ethanol in my car for a few months in high school. I had a big predator carb, high intake, SS fuel line$ to account for the fuel and air. The throttle response was unreal. But I got about 80 miles to a tank of fuel (partly due to that throttle thingy). Only one station in town sold it ($.80/gal vs $.95 for gas) so it wasn't really convenient. I switched back.

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29 minutes ago, Falko said:

Carbed or FI?

Ethanol has about 30% less energy than gas. You are running 15% ethanol, which would equate then to about 4.5% less energy. I think you'll be fine on the mix. The issue with the smaller engines is oil wash from the cylinder walls. It isn't as prominent a problem with the bigger engines as the oiling systems are different. The smaller two strokes, run them a hair richer on oil, like 47:1 vs 50:1. 

The whole ethanol mix thing is a bit of a farce. Yes it is an oxygenating fuel and helps combustion, but there are a lot of combustion side products that are pretty bad coming out the exhaust. Everyone cites pure ethanol cleanliness, which is true, but when mixed with gas the side reactions cause more harm than good. 

On a side note, I ran pure ethanol in my car for a few months in high school. I had a big predator carb, high intake, SS fuel line$ to account for the fuel and air. The throttle response was unreal. But I got about 80 miles to a tank of fuel (partly due to that throttle thingy). Only one station in town sold it ($.80/gal vs $.95 for gas) so it wasn't really convenient. I switched back.

IDK, I am no science guy.  The only place I can easily get pure gas is at a dock during my annual trek to  Arkansas.  The rest of the time I am in Texas on corn gas.  Whether the boat runs better because pure gas is better, or the air is cooler and cleaner in Arkansas, or I am having a great time and want to believe my boat runs better on pure gas,  I feel like it has more power and a sweeter exhaust smell on pure gas.  My lawn equipment runs better on the super expensive home depot pure gas, and I would hate to lose performance or have issues to the old boat if we get force fed E15.

Edited by Bozboat
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1 hour ago, Bozboat said:

IDK, I am no science guy.  The only place I can easily get pure gas is at a dock during my annual trek to  Arkansas.  The rest of the time I am in Texas on corn gas.  Whether the boat runs better because pure gas is better, or the air is cooler and cleaner in Arkansas, or I am having a great time and want to believe my boat runs better on pure gas,  I feel like it has more power and a sweeter exhaust smell on pure gas.  My lawn equipment runs better on the super expensive home depot pure gas, and I would hate to lose performance or have issues to the old boat if we get force fed E15.

A carb engine will run a little worse on E10 when the carb is setup for E0.  If you run on E10 then you take that little mixture screw and give it a bit of a twist or some other carb adjustment.  Same goes for any carbureted yard equipment that was set up for E0.  If you have a closed loop FI system it makes the adjustment for you.   This isn't rocket surgery and E10 gas isn't a new thing.

Edited by oldjeep
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26 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

A carb engine will run a little worse on E10 when the carb is setup for E0.  If you run on E10 then you take that little mixture screw and give it a bit of a twist or some other carb adjustment.  Same goes for any carbureted yard equipment that was set up for E0.  If you have a closed loop FI system it makes the adjustment for you.   This isn't rocket surgery and E10 gas isn't a new thing.

Thank you,  it is re-assuring that the sky is not falling.

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I don’t have FAE, we have ZERO FUMES at the swim platform , non existent exhaust smell. you could  bury your nose between transom and swim platform gap and still not smell anything , open the wedge door no anything with non ethanol , we don’t even have water vapor , nothing

never have and burned e0 from day one

Edited by granddaddy55
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Carbon Monoxide, Co, is the deadly emission we have to avoid. its odorless, colorless and tasteless. So the lack of odor on the  swim platform means little. Co has nothing to do with the fuel being pure or corn gas.    

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33 minutes ago, granddaddy55 said:

I don’t have FAE, we have ZERO FUMES at the swim platform , non existent exhaust smell. you could  bury your nose between transom and swim platform gap and still not smell anything , open the wedge door no anything with non ethanol , we don’t even have water vapor , nothing

never have and burned e0 from day one

You are nuts, or you have the only ICE that doesn't produce carbon monoxide.  

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e10 up you way must have better additives than the stuff we get in NC. Bought a wood splitter new honda engine, ran for 2 months every weekend ran carb dry as well after each use. Then it got to where it wouldn't rev up, pulled carb full of green buildup. ran E0 or pure gas in all wheelers and small engines since haven't had a problem in the last 5 years. I try to end my season with pure gas in my boat, might have a tank or 3 of E10 during the summer.    

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2 hours ago, oldjeep said:

You are nuts, or you have the only ICE that doesn't produce carbon monoxide.  

CO doesn’t smell I get that it’s there snd I have that warning sticker ad well 

but alot more than a couple of vdrives I’ve been on have vapor, smelly fumes , etc , I have non of that , I’ve seen exhaust vapor and smelled exhaust  with FAE’s on nice newer vintage boats as well as my vintage 

one 2017 tige rzx3? Was a vapor/smoke machine without FAE seen vapor from a 2013 G with FAE

heard folks in this site complaining about it thinking FAE would fix it some did and some didn’t 

I’m wondering if pure gas is a cleaner burn and maybe the petroleum pure product with its additives is cleaner than the plant/petro mixture and it’s additives   

Most non lake vdrives and direct drives I know of use e10

side note, had a tank of e0 for 9 months during my broken leg surgery , same tank the entire time nothing added with no fuel stabilizer , kept the engine parts with no gas varnish cause I started it once a month though

Edited by granddaddy55
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8 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

CO doesn’t smell I get that it’s there snd I have that warning sticker ad well 

but alot more than a couple of vdrives I’ve been on have vapor, smelly fumes , etc , I have non of that , I’ve seen exhaust vapor and smelled exhaust  with FAE’s on nice newer vintage boats as well as my vintage 

one 2017 tige rzx3? Was a vapor/smoke machine without FAE seen vapor from a 2013 G with FAE

heard folks in this site complaining about it thinking FAE would fix it some did and some didn’t 

I’m wondering if pure gas is a cleaner burn and maybe the petroleum pure product with its additives is cleaner than the plant/petro mixture and it’s additives   

Most non lake vdrives and direct drives I know of use e10

side note, had a tank of e0 for 9 months during my broken leg surgery , same tank the entire time nothing added with no fuel stabilizer , kept the engine parts with no gas varnish cause I started it once a month though

My e10 fuel sits around for 6 months during winter with no snake oil additives, never had an issue. 

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11 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

CO doesn’t smell I get that it’s there snd I have that warning sticker ad well 

but alot more than a couple of vdrives I’ve been on have vapor, smelly fumes , etc , I have non of that , I’ve seen exhaust vapor and smelled exhaust  with FAE’s on nice newer vintage boats as well as my vintage 

one 2017 tige rzx3? Was a vapor/smoke machine without FAE seen vapor from a 2013 G with FAE

heard folks in this site complaining about it thinking FAE would fix it some did and some didn’t 

I’m wondering if pure gas is a cleaner burn and maybe the petroleum pure product with its additives is cleaner than the plant/petro mixture and it’s additives   

Most non lake vdrives and direct drives I know of use e10

side note, had a tank of e0 for 9 months during my broken leg surgery , same tank the entire time nothing added with no fuel stabilizer , kept the engine parts with no gas varnish cause I started it once a month though

But I think the point is that they are unrelated.  Whether you smell un-burned fuel, smell some of the additives or see vapor, your boat is putting out CO and it is both dangerous and deadly.  We've crossed topics here.  The FAE isn't there to reduce the smell or vapor.  That may be a side product of what is happening, but don't lose sight of the purpose behind the FAE, nor assume that because you don't see it or smell it, it isn't there.

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8 hours ago, JeffK said:

But I think the point is that they are unrelated.  Whether you smell un-burned fuel, smell some of the additives or see vapor, your boat is putting out CO and it is both dangerous and deadly.  We've crossed topics here.  The FAE isn't there to reduce the smell or vapor.  That may be a side product of what is happening, but don't lose sight of the purpose behind the FAE, nor assume that because you don't see it or smell it, it isn't there.

Yes I get the CO issue and that it has no detectable odor , I smell other fumes that may include CO but there are obviously more than CO on others’ boats with and without FAE and I see or smell nothing behind mine and most boats I’m referring to have fumes burn e10, I burn e0 snd never have anything visible or “smellable”

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2 hours ago, granddaddy55 said:

most boats I’m referring to have fumes burn e10, I burn e0 snd never have anything visible or “smellable”

Co is not related to corn gas or pure gas. Its a by product of incomplete burn of hydrocarbons. 

Also, if a modern boat is omitting any more then water vapor (steam) out of the exhaust, there is an issue. Steam is normal, but not a given. Smoke of any kind means something is off. 

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