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Imracin68j

Help me fix my stereo. Amps? Subs. Do I have enough Amp?

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Imracin68j

I was about to order up $1,000 of new amps this morning but I did some reading and maybe these don't suck.  The stereo sound clear but I'm lacking control and feel like I'm driving too many speakers off 1 amp.  One of the biggest concerns is hearing the music while I'm riding.  I can barely hear it but the crew is getting hammered.  I need the f/b to be tower to boat, not front to back as it is right now.  Also, The sub seems to be hooked up to the rear speakers.  I'd like to have the sub on some kind of control that I can adjust up and down independently.  

The amps I have are 
MMATS 270
ARC Technology XDi 805

The rest of my boat has 4 rockford speakers on tower
6 in the boat.  

So I guess.  I need more control, a little more power maybe, especially to the top.  The boat has no thump. The boat has 2 batteries but no way to run independently.  I guess they are in conjunction?  I've had some low bat issues. 

IMG_2206_zpsjjotvbzu.jpg

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shawndoggy

Do you have a subwoofer?

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MLA
1 hour ago, Imracin68j said:

feel like I'm driving too many speakers off 1 amp.

Not at all. Most any class-D 5 chnl will easily handle 3 pair of speakers and woofer. 

1 hour ago, Imracin68j said:

I can barely hear it but the crew is getting hammered.

Hammered by the in-boat speakers' volume or the tower speakers' volume? A simple line level dial will let you turn down the in-boat volume, while cranking the tower volume. FADE through the head unit will allow you some control, but it can be awkward to use on a regular basis. The head unit may also be a limiting factor on how it can be configured. There are marine dual-zone volume controllers that are very simple and effective, but this would leave the sub to be tied to the in-boats are add in a 3rd dial for the woofer. Next up would be a 3 or 4 zone controller, with master volume. 

With that said, I dont see that 70W x 2 @ 4 ohm amp being enough to effectively drive speakers to be heard at wake range. What model are the 4 tower speakers? 

I would highly suggest a dual bank battery switch. 

IIRC, that 5 chnl amp deliver up to 400W rms, so need to deep deeper into why the boat lacks thump. Woofer model, location, enclosure type, etc? 

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Imracin68j

I have a 12 inch JL speaker but I feel like it has more than just bass coming out.  All of my speakers are these 6.5 Fosgate XDi 600.1 except 2 of them are 8 inch on the tower next to 2 6.5.  Should I get a 600w amp just for the sub.  Will it offer more control and power to the 12?

 

 

 

Edited by Imracin68j

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MLA
4 hours ago, Imracin68j said:

 Should I get a 600w amp just for the sub

Still not enough info to make a conclusion. 

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shawndoggy

the arc xdi805 has a 400w sub channel @2 ohms, so you should be OK there assuming the sub is matched to the amp, and assuming the sub install is good (i.e. appropriately sized box, build correctly, in the right location).

Which sub is it exactly that you have, where is it installed, in what kind of box (ported or sealed), and is it built correctly (right size, waterproofed)?

It's really hard to figure out what your question is, but I think you are asking about how to get better control between your tower and cabin speakers, how to get more sound to the rider, and how to get more sub output?

Do you know which amp is powering what?  I'm assuming the Arc is doing the cabins and sub and the MMATS is doing the towers?

A WS420 or other zone controller would help balance between towers and cabins, would give you some control over the sub gain, and would put a master volume control at your fingertips.  

Getting sound to the rider without "hammering" the crew is basically a function of (a) being able to "fade to" the towers only, (b) having speakers placed high above the cabin occupants (assuming you have an illusion tower on an 08 vlx this is going to be your biggest challenge), and (c) having the right speakers powered correctly.

 

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Imracin68j

Well, I went to the stereo shop today and the guy said my system needs fine tuning.  I'm going to order a punch 1000 5 channel for the boat and a punch 600 4 way for the tower.  He'll set me up with a control knob for the sub and one to adjust the volume from the tower to the boat.

 

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MLA
7 hours ago, Imracin68j said:

punch 600 4 way for the tower.

Honestly, the P500-2 is a batter amp for that application and comes in less expensive. 

The 600-4 is going to net you only 75W rms to each speaker for an MSRP of $450. The 500-2 is going to net you 150W rms to each speaker for an MSRP of $399.00. 

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Brodie
2 hours ago, MLA said:

Honestly, the P500-2 is a batter amp for that application and comes in less expensive. 

The 600-4 is going to net you only 75W rms to each speaker for an MSRP of $450. The 500-2 is going to net you 150W rms to each speaker for an MSRP of $399.00. 

^^^^^Agree, except the P500-2 will actually net 125 to each tower speaker, not 150 ([email protected] 2 ohms).

 

I don't necessarily agree with the installers recommendation of swapping out the Arc amp for the RF 1000X5.  There is no RMS advantage there???????????  The RF actually has less rated power at 4 ohms, especially on the sub channel.

Edited by Brodie

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minnmarker
2 hours ago, MLA said:

Honestly, the P500-2 is a batter amp for that application and comes in less expensive. 

The 600-4 is going to net you only 75W rms to each speaker for an MSRP of $450. The 500-2 is going to net you 150W rms to each speaker for an MSRP of $399.00. 

Not sure if this is what you're talking about but the R600-4D will deliver 300W rms to 2 speakers when bridged.  100W rms each to 4 speakers when not.  I've got one for my surf speakers and it works well!

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Imracin68j

Ya, he said something about bridging the speakers.  There are 4 speakers on the tower. I think the punch stuff is under rated on it's power.  At least that's what I've read.

 

Edited by Imracin68j

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minnmarker

With that size amp(s) you can shop around for price, none of them are cheap.  The R600-4D is good but there are others.  The T1000X5AD is nice too.  I have an Alpine PDX-V9 which has the same specs (with a bit more woofer power) that I got a good deal on.  You really don't need "marine" amps if you're on fresh water and the amps are protected from splashing and rain.  Do get class D (efficient) amps though.  All the above are class D so the installer is on the right track.

Look for CEA-2006 rated amps.  That means the rating is standardized and comparable with other CEA rated amps.

Edited by minnmarker

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shawndoggy
1 hour ago, Imracin68j said:

Ya, he said something about bridging the speakers.  There are 4 speakers on the tower. I think the punch stuff is under rated on it's power.  At least that's what I've read.

 

I read that too... in 1987.

You can't bridge a four channel amp to four speakers.  So unless you're running two of those amps for the tower, bridging isn't an option for you.

Rockford Fosgate stuff is good, but not great these days, especially if you are going with the power series vs T series.  

But two adjustment knobs!  Wow!

OP -- you come on here, ask a bunch of questions, get some questions in return, rather than answer them, tell us that your local car stereo shop came up with a marginal plan (but two knobs!) and then want us to do what with it?  Sounds like you got a meh solution to a meh problem for a guy who doesn't really want to put a lot of brain power into solving his issues.  Seems like you are on the right track.

Edited by shawndoggy

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ibelonginprison

Make sure you have a clean source signal, as well, from the source unit to the amps. If you're running something like a cheap Bluetooth connection, only sending 2.5v of signal from a cheap head unit, through a crappy WS EQ, to daisy chained amps - that will have A LOT of affect on it.  Think about the difference in listening to a cassette tape to listening to a CD. Clear signal always sounds better.

Then - put more time in crossing everything over correctly, pay attention to roll-off points and pickup points for frequencies, make sure the sub has the proper sized box, fire it towards the hull rather than out into open air, and you'll have a better result than if you just "bought all new amps." In my opinion, anyway.

All the power in the world won't overcome an improperly tuned, improperly crossed-over setup. It will just sound bad for a further distance.

Within about 100 yards of the boat, my setup routinely puts improperly powered/tuned Rev8's/10's and "expensive subs" to shame because it's been powered well, and tuned right. Guys that spent $5,000+ on speakers and amps thinking that money makes it loud will turn their stuff off when I turn mine up, and then half the time will cruise over and ask me how I made mine sound like that. It's amusing.

Did I drop serious cheese on my setup? Nnnnnnnnnope. I'm only running 8 of the RF 6.5's, powered by two precision power 900.4 (two pairs on each amp), and a single  Sundown Audio X12 sub in a properly sized vented box with about 2000 watts on it. I'm running everything directly from an Arc Audio XEQ, which puts out between 8-9v of signal, and have it all crossed over correctly. That's it. Nothing fancy. No HLCD's. No ridiculous amounts of money thrown into everything.
Just clean signal, thought out setup, powered well, tuned correctly. 

Hope that helps you a little bit, in your planning. 

Edited by ibelonginprison

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cWonka
3 hours ago, ibelonginprison said:

Then - put more time in crossing everything over correctly, pay attention to roll-off points and pickup points for frequencies, make sure the sub has the proper sized box, fire it towards the hull rather than out into open air, and you'll have a better result than if you just "bought all new amps." In my opinion, anyway.

 I'm running everything directly from an Arc Audio XEQ, which puts out between 8-9v of signal, and have it all crossed over correctly. That's it. Nothing fancy. No HLCD's. No ridiculous amounts of money thrown into everything.
Just clean signal, thought out setup, powered well, tuned correctly. 

So is it better to have the sub in a downward firing position rather than a stern firing position under the helm?

What do you use to accurately set your crossovers and roll-off points?

How do you measure the signal from your source unit? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that value advertised along side a head unit, but maybe it’s common on EQs.

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shawndoggy
10 minutes ago, cWonka said:

So is it better to have the sub in a downward firing position rather than a stern firing position under the helm?

What do you use to accurately set your crossovers and roll-off points?

How do you measure the signal from your source unit? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that value advertised along side a head unit, but maybe it’s common on EQs.

Side firing (what @ibelonginprison suggested) will give you some compounding effect to the signal, as will porting.  Basically it's a way to leverage existing planes under the helm like putting a home theater sub near a corner.  What's "best" is up to you.  @ibelonginprison's method will definitely get you A LOT of bass.  Tuning that bass to be "musical" can be a challenge of that configuration, because you have a couple of variables (porting and bass reflex effect of helm) to control for.  Me personally I've tried it and it's resulted in muddy, overbearing bass.  I gave up messing around with it and went back to direct firing into the cabin.  For max "rock the f'ing sandbar" bass, tho, this is the way to let the boom out.

Signal from source unit (pre-amp output) is cited in specs of every HU or EQ I've ever seen with RCAs.  

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ibelonginprison

My biggest personal complaint about front firing subs isn't necessarily db related, so much as there seem to be a LOT more "dead spots" inside the boat in all the ones I sat in, and when I tried it in mine. Vented or not.
Front firing can still project for a long way. But side firing a vented enclosure was the best way for me to create a better listening environment inside the boat for the music I listen to.  It still projects far enough from the boat that it gets the job done for riders... and the sandbar.

I throw enough power on the sub that it keeps it from being "muddy." But - it can certainly be overpowering if you don't turn the sub gain down. 
Then again - I'm running a sub meant for SPL. So if I wanted to accurately reproduce every string slide from a James Taylor live album, I wouldn't have chosen the X12.
I don't have kids, I wanted a dance club on the water... so I made one.

X_REV2_12_000_SSA__22599.1443111567.460.

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MLA
9 hours ago, Brodie said:

^^^^^Agree, except the P500-2 will actually net 125 to each tower speaker, not 150 ([email protected] 2 ohms).

Must of been still in a fog this AM, thanks for the correction. Still a far better deal any way you slice it.

9 hours ago, minnmarker said:

Not sure if this is what you're talking about but the R600-4D will deliver 300W rms to 2 speakers when bridged.  100W rms each to 4 speakers when not.  I've got one for my surf speakers and it works well!

Op said punch. So I guess its this one. https://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/details/p600x4/

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MLA
8 hours ago, Imracin68j said:

Ya, he said something about bridging the speakers.  There are 4 speakers on the tower. I think the punch stuff is under rated on it's power.  At least that's what I've read.

 

You can bridge a pair of speakers on 2 chnls in series configuration, but the wattage to each speaker is the same as stereo. So in the case of the p600-4, you will still net 75w rms and cost more then p500-2. 

As the under rating, if thats the case, the p500-x is also under rated, so still the better deal, right? 

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Imracin68j

So, what amps will get the job done then?  Sorry for sounding ignorant.

 

 

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MLA

One more note to add about the woofer;

No amount of wattage will fix a poor woofer/enclosure design. Did the installer evaluate this?

if your woofer is 4 ohm, you will be cutting the wattage to the woofer in half, with that 1000-5. 

If your woofer is 2 ohm, you will be reducing it 100W. 

No more wattage to the in-boats with the 1000-5

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MLA
3 minutes ago, Imracin68j said:

So, what amps will get the job done then?  Sorry for sounding ignorant.

 

 

For the tower, thats been answered. For the in-boats, there are a few questions unanswered, in order to make a good recommendation. You may not need a new amp, but there is some homework on your part or someones part, that needs to be done before an amp thats actually an upgrade, can be suggested. 

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