2004 23 LSV Ballast Upgrade

[cWonka]

Did you just use the existing pumps and add some quick connects to fill, drain, and vent the new bags?

[Gavin17]

I used the stock pumps and threaded them into my new bags.  My bags and fittings came from wake makers.  I considered upgrading to bigger pumps but I'm pretty happy w/ the stock ones.  They take about 5 min (guessing) to fill, If I'm surfing I'm not in that much of a hurry. 

[cWonka]

Sounds good to me. Do you still have the stock piranha T800 pumps? Did you have to buy anything at the hardware store to thread on your pumps? I’m assuming everything is a 3/4” diameter.

[TNWake]

On 6/9/2018 at 9:48 AM, cWonka said:

We’re you able to remove the hardtanks with out taking out the back seat?

Yes. What I found out is that it only comes out one way. You will need to flip the tank over on it's side, push it towards the rear then it should lift out of there bow side first. It is tight! One issue I ran into was removing the drain pump from the tank. Turning it was slightly difficult but I wound up accidentally disconnecting the ground wire. I would definitely have some wire connectors and a pair of crimpers on hand for this.

[TNWake]

On 6/9/2018 at 2:31 PM, cWonka said:

Sounds good to me. Do you still have the stock piranha T800 pumps? Did you have to buy anything at the hardware store to thread on your pumps? I’m assuming everything is a 3/4” diameter.

Yes everything on mine was 3/4" diameter. I purchased everything from wakemakers. I use the stock pumps it takes about 7 minutes to fill the 850 and 900 it makes for good talking time.

13' of hose. This was probably a little too much but at $1 a ft. I figured having a little extra wouldn't hurt. You'll need a PVC or hose cutter to cut the hose to length.

3/4" hose clamps (qty. 4)

3/4" wakemakers hose barb union (qty. 2). You will need these if you're going to connect your fill and vent lines to the existing hose.

3/4" Flow-Rite drain pump adaptor (qty. 1)

3/4" Flow-Rite Elbow Quick Release Connector (qty. 2)

For whatever bag you get make sure you get the correct 3/4" Flow-Rite fittings attach to the bag and you should be good to go! Installation is fairly easy. The most difficult part I had was connecting the hoses to the hose barb unions. These jokers are a tight fit and I did not have any kind of lubrication outside of spit when I was putting these together. I would recommend using some kind of lubricant when connecting the hoses to the unions if you want to save your shoulder. 

[cWonka]

51 minutes ago, TNWake said:

Yes everything on mine was 3/4" diameter. I purchased everything from wakemakers. I use the stock pumps it takes about 7 minutes to fill the 850 and 900 it makes for good talking time.

13' of hose. This was probably a little too much but at $1 a ft. I figured having a little extra wouldn't hurt. You'll need a PVC or hose cutter to cut the hose to length.

3/4" hose clamps (qty. 4)

3/4" wakemakers hose barb union (qty. 2). You will need these if you're going to connect your fill and vent lines to the existing hose.

3/4" Flow-Rite drain pump adaptor (qty. 1)

3/4" Flow-Rite Elbow Quick Release Connector (qty. 2)

For whatever bag you get make sure you get the correct 3/4" Flow-Rite fittings attach to the bag and you should be good to go! Installation is fairly easy. The most difficult part I had was connecting the hoses to the hose barb unions. These jokers are a tight fit and I did not have any kind of lubrication outside of spit when I was putting these together. I would recommend using some kind of lubricant when connecting the hoses to the unions if you want to save your shoulder. 

Thanks for the parts list!! I got a pair of Fly High 1100's for X-mas so I'm just trying to use the local hardware store inventory to get them installed. I've been using a Tsunami pump and just filling them up next to the convoluted hard tanks because my measurements didn't add up to being able to remove them without additional work, and I didn't want to loose any ride time. Cross referencing your list to my local Box Retail Hardware store, you think this would cut it? Are your stated qty total or "per tank"?

10' of hose: https://www.lowes.com/pd/EASTMAN-3-4-in-x-10-ft-Pvc-Clear-Vinyl-Tubing/1000180555

3/4" hose clamp (qty 4): https://www.lowes.com/pd/Murray-10-Pack-3-4-in-1-1-2-in-Dia-Stainless-Steel-Adjustable-Clamps/50069657

3/4" barb union (qty 2): https://www.lowes.com/pd/Genova-3-4-in-Dia-Insert-Coupling/3455120

3/4" threaded barbed adapter fitting (qty 1): https://www.lowes.com/pd/Genova-3-4-in-Dia-Insert-Male-Adapter/3455128

3/4" threaded barbed elbow adapter fitting (qty 2): https://www.lowes.com/pd/Genova-3-4-in-Dia-Insert-Combination-Elbow/3455036

What would you say for install time, replacing both hardtanks?

Edited June 11, 2018 by cWonka

[TNWake]

I would get 3 of the elbow adapter fittings. I like having the elbows coming out of the bag it eliminates the potential radius you could get when the hose bends but that is just a personal preference and you are definitely going to need an elbow coming out of the drain hole. 

One piece is missing. If you're drain pump is the same as mine it is going to have a threaded inlet connection you will need to rig up something to connect to that. Also with this you will need two more clamps but that's already covered in your 10 pack.

All of the amounts I have been mentioning are "per tank" you will need to double the amounts if you're going to replace both.

I didn't time myself but I would say it took me about 1 hour to remove the tank. This was with little to no idea what I was getting into on the inlet pump and hose removal side. It also took some time analyzing the tank with a buddy to understand how we were going to remove the tank. If I were to do it again I could see it being done in 10-20 minutes. If you have some form of lubricant installing the new bag should take you no longer than 10 minutes. From start to finish it should take about 30 minutes per side if you know what you're doing and there are no issues. But I would set aside at least 2 hours for it because you never know what you're going to get into.

I didn't mention this earlier but I did remove the panel that divides the rear storage from the seat storage. This included removing the air spring for the back hatch. Very quick thing to remove and makes accessing your hose lines + drain pump on the hard tank a lot easier. You may need a buddy to hold up the hatch while you're working in there though.

[cWonka]

57 minutes ago, TNWake said:

I would get 3 of the elbow adapter fittings. I like having the elbows coming out of the bag it eliminates the potential radius you could get when the hose bends but that is just a personal preference and you are definitely going to need an elbow coming out of the drain hole. 

So no "straight" barbed adapter fittings? All 90* elbows. 

1 hour ago, TNWake said:

One piece is missing. If you're drain pump is the same as mine it is going to have a threaded inlet connection you will need to rig up something to connect to that. Also with this you will need two more clamps but that's already covered in your 10 pack.

You think something like this coming off the pump to a short run of hose: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Genova-3-4-in-Dia-Insert-Female-Adapter/3456464 that connects up to the 90* elbow coming from the drain hole? I was planning to keep the pump in the same general location it is now. Is that feasible?

1 hour ago, TNWake said:

I didn't mention this earlier but I did remove the panel that divides the rear storage from the seat storage. This included removing the air spring for the back hatch. Very quick thing to remove and makes accessing your hose lines + drain pump on the hard tank a lot easier. You may need a buddy to hold up the hatch while you're working in there though.

 

1 hour ago, TNWake said:

I didn't time myself but I would say it took me about 1 hour to remove the tank. This was with little to no idea what I was getting into on the inlet pump and hose removal side. It also took some time analyzing the tank with a buddy to understand how we were going to remove the tank. If I were to do it again I could see it being done in 10-20 minutes. If you have some form of lubricant installing the new bag should take you no longer than 10 minutes. From start to finish it should take about 30 minutes per side if you know what you're doing and there are no issues. But I would set aside at least 2 hours for it because you never know what you're going to get into.

I was hoping for 1 hr per tank, that type of timeline normally fits in during the week between work and sleep. Lol. I have no idea what the inlet and vent lines look like. I'm assuming they are just threaded in on the side of the tank that is currently pressed against the side of the boat. I'm assuming its best to have the divider walls out as well, just for the sake of room to move around and another place to reach in?

1 hour ago, TNWake said:

I didn't mention this earlier but I did remove the panel that divides the rear storage from the seat storage. This included removing the air spring for the back hatch. Very quick thing to remove and makes accessing your hose lines + drain pump on the hard tank a lot easier. You may need a buddy to hold up the hatch while you're working in there though.

I'm a little confused on this part. The panel that divides the rear storage from seat storage being the carpeted piece that runs behind the backseat? The bottom of my seat storage is open, you can reach under through to the rear storage. Did you remove the air strut from the hatch side or boat side? Or does it even matter? Did you leave this out after install for the bag to have more room or did you replace it?

[cWonka]

I'm also assuming you fill and vent from the top port placement(s) and drain from the bottom. Any reason to use a Y fitting and hook up drain lines from both sides to a single pump?

[TNWake]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:42 PM, cWonka said:

I'm a little confused on this part. The panel that divides the rear storage from seat storage being the carpeted piece that runs behind the backseat? The bottom of my seat storage is open, you can reach under through to the rear storage. Did you remove the air strut from the hatch side or boat side? Or does it even matter? Did you leave this out after install for the bag to have more room or did you replace it?

Yes the carpeted panel is I am talking about. I removed the hatch from the boat side so I could remove that panel. If you don't have this it's no worry but I don't believe I would've been able to get the tank out of there without removing it.

 

[TNWake]

Wow that sure shows my message board competency I just responded to your quote and it posted inside your quote ha. Yes fill and vent in the top with the drain in the bottom. I wouldn't see any reason to hook up both drain lines to a single pump unless you want to take the drain pump from one side and utilize it somewhere else but it would take those 1100s a really long time to empty with only 1 pump.

[TNWake]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:42 PM, cWonka said:

You think something like this coming off the pump to a short run of hose: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Genova-3-4-in-Dia-Insert-Female-Adapter/3456464 that connects up to the 90* elbow coming from the drain hole? I was planning to keep the pump in the same general location it is now. Is that feasible?

I believe this could work just fine.

[cWonka]

5 hours ago, TNWake said:

Wow that sure shows my message board competency I just responded to your quote and it posted inside your quote ha.

Figured it out, lol.

6 hours ago, TNWake said:

I wouldn't see any reason to hook up both drain lines to a single pump unless you want to take the drain pump from one side and utilize it somewhere else but it would take those 1100s a really long time to empty with only 1 pump.

I wasn’t clear. The bag has low ports on both ends, I meant would it be better to thread hoses on both sides of the bag and then Y them at the pump, that way if their is water in one end of the bag because of the angle of the boat, it can pump out. Still accounting for one fill pump and one drain pump per bag. If not, is there a benefit from connecting to the aft port vs the stock hardtanks draining from a bow facing port?

[blk93jeepzj]

1 hour ago, cWonka said:

Figured it out, lol.

I wasn’t clear. The bag has low ports on both ends, I meant would it be better to thread hoses on both sides of the bag and then Y them at the pump, that way if their is water in one end of the bag because of the angle of the boat, it can pump out. Still accounting for one fill pump and one drain pump per bag. If not, is there a benefit from connecting to the aft port vs the stock hardtanks draining from a bow facing port?

I attached my drain pumps to the rear low ports. When you are on plane and headed back to the dock or driving around the stern is lower and the water is still being supplied to the pumps to get the most water out. 

[TNWake]

On 6/12/2018 at 11:16 PM, blk93jeepzj said:

I attached my drain pumps to the rear low ports. When you are on plane and headed back to the dock or driving around the stern is lower and the water is still being supplied to the pumps to get the most water out. 

I agree with this. mine gets all of the water out pretty well with the single drain line. The double drain line may be a little overkill but heck it wouldn't hurt to try it and see how it performs. 

I also found an issue with the side I installed this weekend. My bag started to lose water after I filled it. Found out the water was being pushed back through the inlet side into the lake. I am going to install a check valve this week to ensure that the water won't back flow. I don't know if you'll see the same issue I have run into but just in case it looks like you're losing water from the bag that's more than likely what it is and the check valve is going to run you around $15.

[cWonka]

Do the check valves slow down fill or drain times? 

[minnmarker]

34 minutes ago, cWonka said:

Do the check valves slow down fill or drain times? 

Unless there's a more restrictive spot in the line, any check valve will increase flow resistance - some more than others.  So yes, it will slow the cycle.  If configured correctly you should only need/want check valves in the vent lines.

[cWonka]

19 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

Unless there's a more restrictive spot in the line, any check valve will increase flow resistance - some more than others.  So yes, it will slow the cycle.  If configured correctly you should only need/want check valves in the vent lines.

How do you configure correctly? If the vent line is plumbed off of the most bow forward top port, wouldn’t that reduce the chance of water escaping the vent line? I’m assuming that the most likely line to leak water would be the drain line since it is the lowest point.

[minnmarker]

13 minutes ago, cWonka said:

How do you configure correctly? If the vent line is plumbed off of the most bow forward top port, wouldn’t that reduce the chance of water escaping the vent line? I’m assuming that the most likely line to leak water would be the drain line since it is the lowest point.

Make sure the vent outlets or the anti siphon loops are above the water level of the bag.  If your pump(s) are free running (water going through when pumps are off) then you need new pumps.

An option is to go with reversible pumps (rotary displacement) instead of centrifugal.  They are a bit slower though.

[kerpluxal]

I should have chimed in a long time ago but did not see this one... 1st question.. why are you removing the underfloor tank for a  900lb bag? the floor tank and bag will fill in the compartment and you get 1150 total per side...

You can easily upgrade the fill with 1100 pumps if you use the pirhana pumps. They are .75 inlet and 1 1/8 out... so they screw right into the thru hulls...

I added the 1100 pumps to fill the tank and piggy backed the bag from the tank.. pump to y which splits to tank and bag... vent from tank goes to top of bag... drain... added drain pump to back of bag of bag and spliced into the drain pump for switch power and drained thru y into vent

the bag back fills into tank and also drains out pump (2 drain ports on bottom of bag... fill y goes to one drain port on bottom of bag and vent tank goes to top of bag.)

I don't have any antisiphon loops but have check valve to prevent back draining with no issues thus far (minus hitting debris all the time)

[blk93jeepzj]

11 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

I should have chimed in a long time ago but did not see this one... 1st question.. why are you removing the underfloor tank for a  900lb bag? the floor tank and bag will fill in the compartment and you get 1150 total per side...

You can easily upgrade the fill with 1100 pumps if you use the pirhana pumps. They are .75 inlet and 1 1/8 out... so they screw right into the thru hulls...

I added the 1100 pumps to fill the tank and piggy backed the bag from the tank.. pump to y which splits to tank and bag... vent from tank goes to top of bag... drain... added drain pump to back of bag of bag and spliced into the drain pump for switch power and drained thru y into vent

the bag back fills into tank and also drains out pump (2 drain ports on bottom of bag... fill y goes to one drain port on bottom of bag and vent tank goes to top of bag.)

I don't have any antisiphon loops but have check valve to prevent back draining with no issues thus far (minus hitting debris all the time)

2004, no under the floor ballast in the rears.  Ballast was a 250# hand tank mounted above the floor on each side.  

[kerpluxal]

16 minutes ago, blk93jeepzj said:

2004, no under the floor ballast in the rears.  Ballast was a 250# hand tank mounted above the floor on each side.  

ahhh my apologies  then bust them out 

[cWonka]

2 hours ago, kerpluxal said:

ahhh my apologies  then bust them out 

Roger... if I had underfloor tanks this all would have been taken care of all ready. Replacing 250# above floor tanks with 1,100# bags. I’ve already swapped the pumps for the T1100, but I thought I needed to widen the through hull diameters to the 1-1/8” to get the full capacity?

[kerpluxal]

13 hours ago, cWonka said:

Roger... if I had underfloor tanks this all would have been taken care of all ready. Replacing 250# above floor tanks with 1,100# bags. I’ve already swapped the pumps for the T1100, but I thought I needed to widen the through hull diameters to the 1-1/8” to get the full capacity?

If you use the Pirhana pumps.. the intake is .75 and outlet is 1 1/8... from Shurflo website: http://shurflo.com/marine-products/152-piranha-ballast-pump-800

Port Size Inlet/Outlet

3/4” [19mm] Inlet 1-1/8" [29mm] Outlet

Flow Rate GPM/LPM

1100 GPM [4163 LPM]

The Tsunamis will require an 1 1/8 intake

[cWonka]

Step by step Hard Tank Removal:

Total time: 30 minutes

Prep: Remove front and rear engine divider panels and rear carpeted seat guard

1. Remove 8 screws from floor mounts

2. Remove fill and vent hose connections from tank

3. Remove fittings from tanks.

4. Remove hose from drain pump

5. Remove drain pump from tank

6. Roll tank on its back with and remove by pulling out through the main cabin of the boat.