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Stereo Upgrade


BenUrbanski

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I have looked over some other forum posts, but decided to get some current feedback for myself.  After a great 1st year of owning an old 1997 Sunsetter, which included a few little projects (added PP, built wakeshaper, repaired/changed some gauges), I have decided one of this years projects is to start stereo upgrade.  I don't want to dump a pile of money into this boat, but don't want trash either.  Currently boat has old CD HU and 4 speakers (dash, rear).  I purchased 6 used exile speakers off @macdaddy and figured time to start planning out what I want to do/buy. 

1. Biggest question I have off the start if what to do to replace HU.  Will mostly Bluetooth music, but nice to be able to not have to pull phone out everytime to change song etc.  So was thinking of going with Exile DMC with either 2 zone knob, or ZLD 3 zone for future add ons.  Or does anybody else want to recommend something different.  IS Wetsounds 420 worth the money?  Any other simple HUs worth looking at?  Rockford Fosgate PMX, JBL PRV, Kicker KMC2, etc.  So what HU, and what zone controller/equalizer if any.

2.  I have an old Kenwood 12" Sub and old Kenwood Amp left over from old car stereo.  Should I bother trying to use these or just buy new.  ANd buy or build sub encloser for under drivers helm.  Currently no heater, but may add one.   Amp is https://www.crutchfield.com/S-Umryp0Gewsf/p_113KAC729S/Kenwood-KAC-729S.html

3. Boat currently has 4, speakers (dash, rear), will be adding 3 pair.  Put in helm, or mid cabin?  Helm would either have to mount down low, or Id have to cut into interior and mount. 

4.  Was thinking a 4 or 5 channel amp.  Probably either a PPI or Pioneer due to cost.  Anybody have any other suggestions??

5.  Will probably add some tower speakers next year, so what do I need to plan for now to add those, other than making wiring/distribution compatible for add on amp. 

6. Wire directly to battery and then remote wire to HU?  Should I tie HU into existing stereo switch on dash/Original Stereo Power?

7. Recommended Tower Speakers/Amp for purchase this year or next year.  Don't need something super load, just something to add sound for surfing/swiming etc, and do I even want tower speakers?

Thanks for all the help in advance and my budget is to keep costs down, but willing to spend money if need to.

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Here's my simple setup in my Tantrum that literally impresses lots of people, and it cost me almost nothing to put together:

1. Pioneer Head Unit (not a marine one, just a modern HU with Bluetooth capability), I have it mounted in the center console and I have had no issues whatsoever with moisture etc.

2. Two PPI Art Series Amps (old school quality amps) I found them locally on craiglist for $100.  I run one dedicated to the sub, i run the other 2 channel amp at 2ohms load for the speakers

3. 4x Polk Audio DB401 speakers (yes 4" speakers); with proper x-over from the amp

4. Alpine ZR 12" sub (from my late 90's car audio days) in a Bassworx ported box firing forward into the bow

5. Amps and power supply are mounted directly on the back of the box, 4 gauge power and grounds running straight to the battery.

The polks are definitely a fairly bright directional speaker, but honestly considering the little money I have into it, it sounds amazing.  I am totally happy with it, and it barely hurt the wallet at all.

Honestly, amps are amps and speakers are speakers, a lot of the old Fosgate and PPI amps still hold their own.

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1. WS 420 is worth the money.  If you are only looking for BT music (no radio) you could get the 420SQ and then the BT rocker switch or BT volume control knob.   I personally own the rocker switch and it is a great receiver and allows me to change the song without having to take out the phone.  With this set up you can eliminate the HU all together, or keep it solely radio.  Creative Audio sells WS at the lowest prices, ask for James he can put together a package deal.  

2.  You could use this for a while and then determine if you need more bass.  Ultimately since you have it, install it, and see if it suit you.  Dont spend money if you dont have too.

3. Don't mount anything low, the sound will be lacking at best.

4. PPI is a great choice if you are solely looking for a budget amp, but there are much better amps out there.

5. Plan for a large enough Battery wire, run extra set of RCA, etx

7. To get the best of the best, I recommend getting a pair of Rev 8s (Rev 10s if you need to listen at wakeboard length) along with a good amp WS SYN-DX4 is my top choice.  These are top of the line options and can be moved from boat to boat, or resold at a premium.  

 

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34 minutes ago, BenUrbanski said:

I have looked over some other forum posts, but decided to get some current feedback for myself.  After a great 1st year of owning an old 1997 Sunsetter, which included a few little projects (added PP, built wakeshaper, repaired/changed some gauges), I have decided one of this years projects is to start stereo upgrade.  I don't want to dump a pile of money into this boat, but don't want trash either.  Currently boat has old CD HU and 4 speakers (dash, rear).  I purchased 6 used exile speakers off @macdaddy and figured time to start planning out what I want to do/buy. 

1. Biggest question I have off the start if what to do to replace HU.  Will mostly Bluetooth music, but nice to be able to not have to pull phone out everytime to change song etc.  So was thinking of going with Exile DMC with either 2 zone knob, or ZLD 3 zone for future add ons.  Or does anybody else want to recommend something different.  IS Wetsounds 420 worth the money?  Any other simple HUs worth looking at?  Rockford Fosgate PMX, JBL PRV, Kicker KMC2, etc.  So what HU, and what zone controller/equalizer if any.

2.  I have an old Kenwood 12" Sub and old Kenwood Amp left over from old car stereo.  Should I bother trying to use these or just buy new.  ANd buy or build sub encloser for under drivers helm.  Currently no heater, but may add one.   Amp is https://www.crutchfield.com/S-Umryp0Gewsf/p_113KAC729S/Kenwood-KAC-729S.html

3. Boat currently has 4, speakers (dash, rear), will be adding 3 pair.  Put in helm, or mid cabin?  Helm would either have to mount down low, or Id have to cut into interior and mount. 

4.  Was thinking a 4 or 5 channel amp.  Probably either a PPI or Pioneer due to cost.  Anybody have any other suggestions??

5.  Will probably add some tower speakers next year, so what do I need to plan for now to add those, other than making wiring/distribution compatible for add on amp. 

6. Wire directly to battery and then remote wire to HU?  Should I tie HU into existing stereo switch on dash/Original Stereo Power?

7. Recommended Tower Speakers/Amp for purchase this year or next year.  Don't need something super load, just something to add sound for surfing/swiming etc, and do I even want tower speakers?

Thanks for all the help in advance and my budget is to keep costs down, but willing to spend money if need to.

1. With as fast as music source choices are expanding/changing I would say Blue Tooth is a good idea and seeing the possible addition of tower speakers in #7 then a 420BT would be a great idea.  You need independent volume control with outside facing speakers.

2. Your combo in a ready made sub box like a Q Bomb would be fine.

3.  Mid cabin and see if you can fit 8 inchers.  Your mid bass will thank you.

4. Make sure its a Class D and you can set each pair of speaker's gain separately.

5. Towers are nice but not for me and surfing without blowing eardrums in the cabin. 

6.  Lots of threads on electrical noise.  Wire everything directly to the same power source.

7. I didn't want tower speakers (see above) but to each their own.  I now have 8" rear facing pylon speakers.  Great for surfing or floating around boat.

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@minnmarker thanks for feedback, I actually love your pylon mounted speakers, but don’t think it would work the same in my DD (still blow people’s ears out. Have thought about mounting some brackets on side rails of boat near back to mount speakers to, but not sure I want something permanent like that. Where about you located Minnesota or WIs? I’m just across the border up in Thunder Bay. Kind of close I guess 

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10 minutes ago, BenUrbanski said:

@minnmarker thanks for feedback, I actually love your pylon mounted speakers, but don’t think it would work the same in my DD (still blow people’s ears out. Have thought about mounting some brackets on side rails of boat near back to mount speakers to, but not sure I want something permanent like that. Where about you located Minnesota or WIs? I’m just across the border up in Thunder Bay. Kind of close I guess 

Nope, would not work for a DD.  Perhaps you can figure something out but why have rear facing speakers if you really can't surf?

I'm pretty far South compared to you.  Live near Minneapolis and have cabin near St. Croix Falls.  Have been to Thunder Bay a few times.  Beautiful place.  First time I think it was still called Port Arthur!

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While I would love to have true crossover boat like yours, and even have a buddy who is selling a mint shape 2005 lsv right now, it would be close to 3 times what I paid for my boat, so not in the cards right now. That being said, the old sunsetter is actually quite surfable. Have had people do 360s, etc behind it and can surf ropeless pretty far back no problem. Can we transfer wake to wake or get big air no, but can definitely surf and do some tricks, so some tunes for the beginner surfing we do would be nice. . 

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20 minutes ago, BenUrbanski said:

While I would love to have true crossover boat like yours, and even have a buddy who is selling a mint shape 2005 lsv right now, it would be close to 3 times what I paid for my boat, so not in the cards right now. That being said, the old sunsetter is actually quite surfable. Have had people do 360s, etc behind it and can surf ropeless pretty far back no problem. Can we transfer wake to wake or get big air no, but can definitely surf and do some tricks, so some tunes for the beginner surfing we do would be nice. . 

Not to change topics... @minnmarker... I had a great surf wave behind my Sunsetter LX DD and surfed it for 2 years... if it was not for crew growing larger I would have not started looking for a bigger boat... My friends Response LXi is more than capable after I loaned him some bags... The biggest issue is that the bags end up on floor :( ..

@BenUrbankski... Not sure, but could you build something up from the back tow bar/grab handle above the swim platform? I have seen speakers also installed in the rear corners behind the air vents.. but I don't think you have them there... Go Epic style and just mount them in your transom ;) If you weight that boat right.. it will throw a sick wave btw :) 

Edited by kerpluxal
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On 3/15/2018 at 11:21 AM, BenUrbanski said:

ZLD 3 zone for future add ons.  Or does anybody else want to recommend something different.  IS Wetsounds 420 worth the money?

There is only a $20 retail difference between the two devices. SO what do you get for that extra $20? You get a true marine zone volume EQ that was designed in-house from the ground up. Two features that have not changed from the beginning. Tower and in-boat volumes have always been separate and independent. 2nd, the WS-420, WS-420SQ and WS-420BT have a dual 4-band EQ. This allows for the user to make tonal adjustments to both the in-boat and tower setups, completely independent and not effecting the other zone. This is extremely beneficial when your tower and in-boats are different in size, type and application. The zld is a converted automotive EQ design that we've seen since the 90's It started out with the typical front/rear fade dial for its zone volume control. In its current state, there are now 2 dials for tower/in-boat, but the EQ is still a single EQ. Any change you want to make to one zone, effects the other zone. IF you want to add some mid-bass to the tower speakers, you are also adding mid-bass to the in-boat zone. if you want to reduce the highs of the in-boats, you take away from the tower zone at the same time. 

The WS-420SQ, BT and WS-220BT have a ground isolation jumper to insure proper reference through the signal path. Used to to eliminate unwanted noise that might enter the system.

The zld has a non defeatable low-pass woofer frequency dial taking up space on the front as well as the circuit boat. This redundant adjustment makes tuning the woofer tricky. All modern amps intended to run low-pass, have this dial for tuning, Much better to let the amp handle this.  

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33 minutes ago, MLA said:

There is only a $20 retail difference between the two devices. SO what do you get for that extra $20?

I tried (and failed) to equal the WS-420 functionality on the cheap.  I now have a WS-420 BT.  It is really nice - better I think than my friends digital (read not analog and easy to adjust) "modern" setup.

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22 hours ago, BenUrbanski said:

While I would love to have true crossover boat like yours, and even have a buddy who is selling a mint shape 2005 lsv right now, it would be close to 3 times what I paid for my boat, so not in the cards right now. That being said, the old sunsetter is actually quite surfable. Have had people do 360s, etc behind it and can surf ropeless pretty far back no problem. Can we transfer wake to wake or get big air no, but can definitely surf and do some tricks, so some tunes for the beginner surfing we do would be nice. . 

Hey @BenUrbanski -  tell me about your setup for your sunsetter, as I have a '98 and would like to compare?  Do you use a suckgate?

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@minnmarker @MLA  so while can usually pick up ZLD for 200 vs 320, sounds like if going EQ/Zone control WS is worth the money.  SO question is, can I just use WT420 for BT input/control?  Does 420 have any way of controlling music/skipping songs etc.  Or is there add-on for doing this.  Here are options for HU, give me your pros/cons/thoughts.

1. Add BT dongle to existing  old Kenwood HU, and get some sort of BT controller knob/button.  $40-60.00

2. Exile or similar DMC with zone/fader knob. $125.00

3. WT420BT $300.00

 

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I’ve had both the 420sq and the ZLD with DMC.

And the precision zone tuning with the 420 is superior , but going to a (3 or 4) amp set up I’ve achieved the same results with properly setting gains and amp eq signal frequencies. I don’t play with the EQ setting as much with my current setup (ZLD/DMC)

love the Dmc I use every aspect of it. #1 is the  play pause feature, use this the most with rider down. On/off , Bluetooth and track Fwd/rev are also.

928A1E38-364F-42AC-875C-CD96AB64734E.jpeg

Edited by Stevo
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19 minutes ago, BenUrbanski said:

so while can usually pick up ZLD for 200 vs 320

Finding a new, in the box, full factory warranty zld for $200 would be a deal for sure, based on their $300 MSRP, however, this implies that you cannot get a discount on a wet sounds product, which is not true.  

25 minutes ago, BenUrbanski said:

SO question is, can I just use WT420 for BT input/control?  Does 420 have any way of controlling music/skipping songs etc.  Or is there add-on for doing this.

You can add a universal blue tooth such as the BT-UR or similar, to the WS-420 SQ or any head unit with rear AUX input. However, no universal blue tooth from wet sounds, exile, JL, fusion, Cerwin Vega, Metra Install Bay, etc, is going to allow any song or playlist control through the main source unit. These universal devices simple and only, have audio output. The Wet Sounds BT-SW and BT-VC do offer some playlist control from the blue tooth device itself, but still not through your main unit whether its head unit or EQ zone control light WS-420, zld or any other automotive EQ, These blue tooth units still dont offer bi-direction communication, audio only. You would need a proprietary blue tooth, in your case, a Kenwood unit, if you wanted to control the playlist through the head our wired remote.  

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1 - Your cheapest route would be to just put a phone mount on the dash, then you don't have to break it out to change songs as it is already there.  Then use whatever EQ your heart desires.  This best fits your budget build.

2 - Trash the Kenwood.  If you have time to build a box, do so.  If not, a decent prefab will work fine

3 - I have 4 in-boats + 4 towers.  If I had to throw an extra pair of in-boats, I'd probably do the bow.  I have Polk MM series in the boat

4 - PPI/Polk/5 other brands that were used for this same series of amp are probably the best bang for the buck amps out there.  I did a 5 channel and 4 channel Polk units (4 channel for the towers, 5 for the in-boats and sub).  If I were to do it again, I would have done 3 amps.  I'm pushing the 5 channel about as far as it can go - runs fine, but the sub could take a little more power (Exile sub).

5 - Yes, just do a full re-wire.  Remember, the wiring in your boat is 20+ years old.  I'd personally do a 2 battery setup, ACR, 0AWG, new speaker wire, new RCA's, the works.  Speaker wire isn't that expensive and doesn't take that long to run - don't waste your time trying to re-use the factory stuff.

6 - Common grounds.  Just do a grounding bar and have everything ground to the same point.  That is your real wiring concern.  HU memory, if you want to keep the memory when the power switch is off, should be hardwired to the battery.  EQ shouldn't matter for this.  Since your boat has the old knob switches, you don't exactly have a lot of switches to play with, so if you can free up a dash switch by not having your EQ/HU on the dash switch.

7 - For me, Exile or Wetsounds.  Just find a used pair of REV-10's or 4 of anything smaller.  I have the older SXT65 "surf" speakers from Exile and really like them - I'm sure the 8" version are either better, but for my next boat build it will be REV-10's and I won't even consider anything else (unless Wetsounds up's their game with something even more enticing).  

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