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Surf Pipe vs Turned down Exhaust


AltaVisaRider

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@IXFE - I'd like to see a real CO study to see what the effective difference is in ppm as I think I'm with you on this debate (grab my own flame suit).  I don't disagree with Fman around the danger of CO, but I'm not sure this does anything to change your exposure.  As a bit of a scientiest I would question how much of a difference it would make given rapid dispersion of CO into turbulent surrounding air given wind, boat motion, etc. In addition CO has very low soluability into water meaning most of it is just going to bubble up and be released into the air anyway.  I would bet at 10 feet back the difference is likely undetectible.  Feels like it's a great way to take a small piece of metal and charge a lot of money for theoretical piece of mind, but that's just my $.02.

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We added surf pipe to our 2018 T22 build. We have not been behind an axis with it but I surfed a G23 with it and it was awesome. It was weird to hear the wave.  I could actually hear the sound of the wave curling. 

There are a lot of variables so it might be totally different behind our new Axis vs the G23 but we removed 2 tower speakers and added surf pipe which actually saved us some money. Hopefully it works out but we won't know till the ice melts. 

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when we originally got our 2007 VLX, we were doing a lot of surfing where we had to list the boat. I clearly remember one afternoon while I was driving, I turned around and saw my 3yr old daughter sitting in the back corner watching our rider. I also remember seeing some type of gas (could have been CO, could have been steam...) coming up from below the swim step, and going directly to where she was sitting.  I have also gotten headaches from the exhaust before. So for me, this was an easy no brainer. FAE was ordered that afternoon. 

when I got our 2016 LSV, it was one of the first things that I added. 

maybe it is not an issue anymore with the CATS (my 2007 had the hammer head = no CATS). I actually did have a family member cut himself in the shin pretty bad with the first FAE, but that was a really unique scenario that should not have happened in the first place. we put ~600hrs on the VLX and I have 100+ on the LSV, almost all with kids who want to jump in at every stop. so far, that was the only accident we have had.

Edited by NewMalibu
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2 hours ago, vanamp said:

We added surf pipe to our 2018 T22 build. We have not been behind an axis with it but I surfed a G23 with it and it was awesome. It was weird to hear the wave.  I could actually hear the sound of the wave curling. 

There are a lot of variables so it might be totally different behind our new Axis vs the G23 but we removed 2 tower speakers and added surf pipe which actually saved us some money. Hopefully it works out but we won't know till the ice melts. 

I too have surfed the G23 many times and have noticed it’s a very quiet boat inside... but that’s not due to the pipe. 

Go surf a 24 MXZ with the pipe and see if it’s as quiet as that G23... 

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1 hour ago, NewMalibu said:

 I actually did have a family member cut himself in the shin pretty bad with the first FAE, but that was a really unique scenario that should not have happened in the first place. 

But isn’t boating full of unique scenarios that shouldn’t happen but somehow do?  Should my buddy’s wife have sliced her forehead open on a trim tab?  No, but after 25 years of boating experience she did!  

My entire approach to safety is to try and anticipate such scenarios and eliminate the risk (where possible) before it happens. 

Every time I see a new boat with the pipe I run my fingers along the edges hoping to find that they’ve finished them off a little smoother. It’s become a habit. I’ve felt dozens of them over the past two years (since Malibu started offering it in mid-2016) and they’re all the same, sharp and jagged. And I’m not just talking about the pipe opening; there’s a large fin that sticks out about half way up the pipe that is also poorly finished.  Until they round those edges like they do on the wedge, I won’t be a customer. I refuse to put what amounts to a giant blade that close to my kids who swim and play back there (only a few inches from the back of the platform).  I view this as a greater risk than CO exposure. 

To be honest, it’s crime what they charge for the pipe if you look closely at the quality of those cuts. It’s the roughest piece of (exposed) hardware on the entire boat. 

714F7D3F-4CC6-4403-90AE-0DB52D52AF1B.jpeg

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I don't disagree with you at all. I've often run my fingers over the outlet thinking the same thing.

my point was that in over 700 hrs, the only time I ran into a safety issue was when a 6'5" guy was trying to see if he could reach the back of the boat with his feet while we were in really choppy conditions. the bigger issue was actually how/why he did not hit his head on the bottom of the swim platform in those conditions.

btw - on the FAE, you dont have that upper 'flange/spoiler'. I have heard that helps keep the spray down at speed which would be nice, but is not required.

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I'm in the order it camp.  For me, it is the sound difference.  I'm in the camp that says it's night and day.  It is definitely not a placebo, either.  I have surfed behind our 2016 A24 with surfpipe and instantly moved over to a 2016 A22 without.  The drone of the motor while surfing is incredibly noticeable, especially if you don't wait between surf sets and jump between them.  I have always been a fan of the upgrade.  To me, I sell it as the cheapest sound system upgrade you can do.  Two more speakers and and amp isn't this cheap.  The space argument from above is legitimate.  It will make your boat longer by about a foot. And I do agree the craftsmanship of the pipe leaves a little to be desired; however, it spends most of its time underwater so....

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My 14 23 LSV had the MP450 and FAEs surf pipe. My 17 23 LSV has the 410 and no pipe. I will say the new boat is slightly louder but in my opinion I like the sound better. I love the sound of an American V8 and I think it's the perfect mix of visceral experience without being obnoxious at all. This is very subjective so take it for what it's worth.

One thing to think about is what is the $$ risk of not getting it to start and installing it later if you'd like to quiet down the boat?

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Facts I've found on my boat (FAE instead of Surf Pipe, but same difference):

- Mine has the same "sharp edges."  Hell, with the clamps, it has more edge points.  No one has ever cut themselves on it.  No scrapes - nothing.

- My boat is catless, so where you can't smell CO, you can smell an uncatted exhaust for sure, especially when surfing.  I used to smell the exhaust while surfing, now I don't.  That's a pretty clear indicator that I'm not breathing in the crap I used to be.  We also noticed being fresher after a surf session.  You can poo poo the being fresher part, but not smelling the exhaust now is simple fact - at least underway.  As for at idle, I notice the exhaust more than when I had both flappers and STE.

- Boat is for sure quieter.  The STE quieted my boat down.  Going to the FAE made it even quieter, though the difference wasn't as big of a change as going from flappers to STE.  Fact is I never heard the V-drive prior to the FAE - now I can.  That's a pretty clear cut difference.  At WOT, I'd say FAE and STE are about the same in volume - both being quieter than the flappers.  

- It is arguable whether bypassing the muffler made my FAE any quieter, but didn't make it any louder.  I'm voting for no change in anything except space and power, both which are measurable.

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I will chime in as I must be one of the few people that have the down turned pipes option.  I need every inch (with platform removed) for garage storage... so surf pipe wont work.  When wakeboarding the tips are obviously well out of the water, not sure if with the boat weighted and at surf speed if either tip is in the water (I assume no... but I will have to take a look this summer.) Anyway... I do think the downturned tips are a little quieter as they are just one more barrier between you and the exhaust the sounds has to travel around and the exhaust is generally aimed down at the moving water.  Not a great photo but you can see them.  I'm not sure why Malibu couldn't just extend these tips further below the hull with a hydrodynamic shape vs. the huge surfpipe going up and over the wedge.  Maybe it would impact the effectiveness of the wedge since it would disrupt the water near the airfoil effect of the wedge in the water..  

TB1.JPG

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I have a 2014 with CATS system, its the PCM ZR409. Never thought my boat was too loud but last winter about this time started researching it since there was a group buy for an FAE (you can buy direct for $480 plus $40 option for blended welds and flappers if needed (my flappers are built into exhaust so did not matter for me). After some research I found that Wake 9 actually did do some testing of the ppm with a device...mixed results that day....but a lot of it depends on speed, wind direction, etc but the worst is sitting in back seat or sun deck with the "station wagon" effect as well as surfing right behind the exhaust system and considering I have young kids and my wife gets migraines from exhaust smell that would have sold it for my right there....but I also surf 90% of the time on my boat so the benefits for me seemed to far outweight the negatives. I also noticed that sometimes my boat put off "Steam" right behind boat and while smell was not bad or obvious to me (Wife did smell it), you gotta remember that CO is odorless and is one of the worst causes of cancer. So I ordered last March but did not install on my boat till about middle of summer since I was hearing of some install issues and wanted to make sure that was cleared before I did it and I have had zero issues with it (it is longer on the Malibu's due to the wedge, other boats dont stick out that far tho).

I can tell you without a doubt, there is a HUGE difference in sound, when idling the only way I know the boat is on is hearing the water bubbling to surface and slight vibration on floor and surfing behind the boat listening to music and talking to people on boat while surfing is night/day (especially when they are talking to you). Some of this will depend on brand since some have great insulation around the motors which reduce the engine noise and others not so much (my exhaust was always louder than engine noise)....and the exhaust noise on some boats are louder than others. It was a huge upgrade to my speaker system tho and I have REV-8 tower speakers that can put out some music! That by itself was worth the price to me, it was like getting 2 extra tower speakers for the rider without banging your head on them, lol.

I also now see zero exhaust when moving, nor do I ever smell it. My wife notices a difference and has mentioned it. I would spent a lot more money to keep my kids safe...who wouldn't. Someone needs to do multiple back to back tests on different boats in different conditions to see what a "typical" effect is. On older boats and with the newer systems with CATS. Still, the only reduce the CO output and certainly do not eliminate it by any means. I know for sure there were times before after surfing that I felt more "worn out" than others and while I cannot scientifically prove it was the exhaust, in my mind that was the difference since it has not happened since, not does it ever happen when surfing with my riding partner ever week who has FAE on his Malibu 247 (his engine is louder than exhaust).

The downside is its not the most beautiful looking piece of art in the world (tho it stays in water and is not seen much) and of course the edges....which have not caused us any issues and mine does not stick out so far since no wedge on my boat. Also I have some spray not only when surfing (you can make most of it go away adjusting the trim tab up/down, but it can be a PITA for sure).... at higher speeds it has noticeable spray tho does not get anywhere near a rider that is on 50ft+ rope. Larry with FAE is sending me a flange this Spring to install like on above pic and that is supposed to reduce or stop the spray....course that is another sharp edge, but not something that worries me since its much closer to transom on my boat and only half the length of swim platform. GSA tabs or any surf tabs would stick our further....as does a center trim plate on any boat. I will say that I believe part of the spray issue on my boat is due to the deep V hull creating an air pocket right behind the hull, right where pipe goes down (I can look down and see it when surfing) cause on my buddies Malibu, he does not have that flange and he does not have the spray issues that I do, due to hull difference, his extends into the water further (he does have the wedge) and that has to be what causes the spray. Been well noted that the Centurion boats get more spray with the FAE. Guess we will see how well this flange works. Personally I would much prefer the design that Centurion has come out with that incorporates the exhaust into the trim plate (called silent stinger).....very cool and looks better too.

Anyway, these are my opinions but I also heartily agreed that it would be GREAT if someone did a CO study on this on older and newer engines (bunch of boats and I offer mine as a test model) so we have scientific proof.

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One other note on CO and exhaust fume health hazards.  Benzyne is more of a factor than CO.  A lot of people think gasoline engines don't produce Benzyne only diesel engines.  This is not the case, benzyne is a bi-product of gasoline and oil.  Diesel engines will release more Benzyne (especially at startup) but gasoline engines are still releasing it.

Benzyne is absolutely 100% a cancer causing agent, backed up with tons of data.  Just do a quick search on the internet.  There are multiple cancers that are caused by benzyne.

Think about how many hours each summer all of us are spending 10-15 feet behind the boat surfing.  Unless Malibu changed to a low hanging turn down tip they are not in the water when surfing.  The exhaust is coming right off the top of the water under the platform right towards you surfing or recirculation back into the cabin of the boat.  The surf pipe and prop wash is blowing all that crap under the water behind you.  The reason you don't "smell" fumes is because CO and many other exhaust gases are odorless.

I'm going to eventually convert @IXFE to checking the surf pipe box on the next order only because I want his crew to be safe and I really care about the dude!  And his stereo will even sound a little better:biggrin:

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/benzene.html

 

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And one last comment on the surf pipe cutting your feet under the boat.  I honestly find this difficult to believe it happens much.   I've had 2 surf pipes and nobody on our boat has ever had a problem swimming around the boat hitting there feet on it.  We have all ages of kids on our boat.

Personally I don't want anyone kicking there feet under the swim platform around the wedge or surf gate tabs anyway.   Maybe someone can chime in that has had people cut there feet on a newer style surf pipe?  Is this really a common problem? I will say my FAE on my 2015 22vlx had sharper areas than the new Malibu style.

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27 minutes ago, Fman said:

And one last comment on the surf pipe cutting your feet under the boat.  I honestly find this difficult to believe it happens much.   I've had 2 surf pipes and nobody on our boat has ever had a problem swimming around the boat hitting there feet on it.  We have all ages of kids on our boat.

Personally I don't want anyone kicking there feet under the swim platform around the wedge or surf gate tabs anyway.   Maybe someone can chime in that has had people cut there feet on a newer style surf pipe?  Is this really a common problem? I will say my FAE on my 2015 22vlx had sharper areas than the new Malibu style.

I’m not saying it HAS happened or WILL happen. I’m just saying I can FORESEE a scenario where it MIGHT happen. And I like to avoid risks when possible. 

And it absolutely CAN happen; there are two examples in this thread (one FAE and one trim tab). 

Is it so much to ask Malibu (or whoever is supplying that thing) to finish off that piece like the wedge?  I mean, if we’re not worried about it, why not sharpen the wedge to be razor sharp too?  Would you be okay with that??

Edited by IXFE
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54 minutes ago, IXFE said:

I’m not saying it HAS happened or WILL happen. I’m just saying I can FORESEE a scenario where it MIGHT happen. And I like to avoid risks when possible. 

And it absolutely CAN happen; there are two examples in this thread (one FAE and one trim tab). 

Is it so much to ask Malibu (or whoever is supplying that thing) to finish off that piece like the wedge?  I mean, if we’re not worried about it, why not sharpen the wedge to be razor sharp too?  Would you be okay with that??

I gotta double check mine and give it a hard look,  I don't recall it ever being sharp enough to actually cut someone's foot.  I can see if you kicked it hard it would definitely not feel good on your feet and probably hurt like ****.  Maybe this happens more often than I realize, just never has been an issue for us.  Maybe we have just been lucky? 

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I am in the quieter less exhaust smell camp.   Demo'd a 2016 23LSV prior to purchase of our 2016 23LSV.  The demo boat had down SS turn pipes which reduced noise and some exhaust smells but generated a lot of steam. 

We ended up ordering the surf pipe since it just became available on late 2016 models as I liked the idea.  Glad I did.   We have zero steam generation with the surf pipe.  The smell of exhaust gas fumes are reduced as well even when idling, starting and stopping.   We noticed that underway we could easily see the exhaust bubbling up behind the surf rider in the prop wash.  IMO exhaust exposure to the surfer looks to be much less since the exhaust fumes stay underwater and surface after the rider.   Must on my future option list.   

As far as safety I am sure if you try hard enough someone may catch the surf pipe.  Or hit the wedge or hit the prop or the gorilla fins if swimming under the boat.  Could pinch a finger getting in over the surf gates.  (has happened)   When the boat is in the water I have tried to find the surf pipe with my feet when holding on to the swim platform.  Not really a hazard getting into the boat off the platform that I could see or feel.  Sure it is possible but I think it is really not that big a potential safety hazard.  

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I placed an FAE exhaust on my 23LSV and immediately  was stoked. No more fumes sitting/filming from rear seat and surfing. The ability to hear the clear expensive audio setup in and out of the boat without frying an amp or taking years off one's hearing. (Lowers engine noise immensely). Most apparent downside of FAE is the rooster tail it creates wake boarding not sure if that is seen by others but seems might be.

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The FAE is one of the best options we put on our 2017 LSV. No issues at all with it cutting anyone and we have dogs, kids and adults swimming all around the boat!

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On 2/12/2018 at 8:41 AM, MustGoFast said:

@IXFE - I'd like to see a real CO study to see what the effective difference is in ppm as I think I'm with you on this debate (grab my own flame suit).  I don't disagree with Fman around the danger of CO, but I'm not sure this does anything to change your exposure.  As a bit of a scientiest I would question how much of a difference it would make given rapid dispersion of CO into turbulent surrounding air given wind, boat motion, etc. In addition CO has very low soluability into water meaning most of it is just going to bubble up and be released into the air anyway.  I would bet at 10 feet back the difference is likely undetectible.  Feels like it's a great way to take a small piece of metal and charge a lot of money for theoretical piece of mind, but that's just my $.02.

 

You are right about that.   Even Larry at FAE will tell you surfing 10' back behind the boat is not dangerous for CO poisoning -- even without FAE/Surf pipe.   But CO is definitely lingering around the back of the boat at idle and can come back into the boat.   You see people sitting on those corners all the time (obviously not as bad as "teak surfing/dragging," which is what started the CO discussions back in the day).   The back of the boat is where most of the problems lie. The modern CATs make this better at idle but not much under power, from what I've read.

I've had FAE on my previous boat and think it's a no brainer.   Peace of mind, and it definitely is quieter surfing behind it.    Not a bad price either (only half of the B.O.A.T rule).

That being said, I'm with IXFE (I think was him, different post) about the design needing to be better, especially around the bulky wedge.  I'm gonna have my own fabricated soon.   

 

 

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I took a more detailed look at the fit and finish of the surf pipe today on my 2017 LSV.  The deflector shield and the lower section of the surf pipe is definitely not what I would consider "sharp" however it is definitely not as refined/finished off as the outer edge of the wedge foil.  I agree with @IXFE it could use a little more attention to detail.  I do think to cut your foot on it you would have to kick it pretty hard, definitely could be possible if someone was not paying attention.  Lets be honest Malibu in general does not have the most user friendly boat when it comes to someone kicking there feet under the platform with a wedge, surf pipe and surf gate actuators that all could hit someones foot if they were not careful.

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