2004 wakes vs 2018 wakes $90K difference?.

[IXFE]

20 hours ago, Gavin17 said:

I think my 2004 has a 1.5:1 trans ratio.  I think the new boats are 2:1. 

 

If my boat is cruising at 3000 engine rpm then the prop is spinning at 2000 rpm  (3000/1.5)

The new boat with the same prop would need 4000 rpm to match my speed because it has a lower gear ratio.  

 

More engine rpm doesn't necessarily mean less engine life.  Since they are completely different engines it's more complicated than that. 

 

In general the new boats are larger and heavier and require more power.  So what most companies have done is.

use  more powerful engines that can spin faster than my small block chevy. 

use  lower gear ratios to increase torque to the prop

use larger props to improve performance

 

Since they've changed so many things in the drivetrains since 2004 making comparisons isn't very useful.  The numbers I'd really want to know when comparing boats would be top speed,  time to plane, gallons per hour for whatever activity you prefer etc. 

The new boats that we are talking about (ie 23 LSV) have 1.76 : 1 transmission ratios. That’s been Malibu’s “go to” transmission since 2016  

The exceptions are the following:

* 21 VLX / MLX has 1.5 : 1 (‘17+)

* M235, 24 MXZ (‘17+), and 25 LSV (‘17+) which have 2 : 1

But your point is valid, it’s very difficult, if not impossible to compare the performance of today’s boats vs a decade ago and attribute what you’re feeling entirely to the engine.  Having owned a lot of the different engine/trans/prop combos over my past seven Malibus, I can tell you that on this forum we attribute way to much to engine choice and not enough to trans and prop.  

One example of that is when I went from my ‘16 23 LSV (410/1.76:1/15”) to a ‘17 25 LSV (450/2:1/17”).  I fully expected the 25 to exhibit higher RPM’s than the 23 due to the 2:1 transmission, as you pointed out.  I was pleasantly surprised to find the opposite!  Surf RPM’s dropped by 400-500!  Why?  I believe the answer is the 17” prop which moves more water than a 15” prop, thus achieving the desired speed more efficiently.

Going back to a 23 LSV this year and I fully expect my surf RPM’s will be back up.  See the pic below of my 25 LSV while surfing with 5 people on board.  I challenge anybody (myself included) to achieve those RPM’s in a ‘18 23 LSV...

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2018 by IXFE

[shawndoggy]

Would it be worse to have my kids fall asleep while I surf or @IXFE's wife(?) reading War and Peace while I surf?

[ahopkins22LSV]

6 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Would it be worse to have my kids fall asleep while I surf or @IXFE's wife(?) reading War and Peace while I surf?

Beat me to it

Both are expected i'd say... I fully expect my daughter to start thinking everything I do is Suuuuuuuuuuuuper boring.

[shawndoggy]

10 minutes ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

I fully expect my daughter to start thinking everything I do is Suuuuuuuuuuuuper boring.

Kids play the long game... first she will think you are the coolest guy on earth, so that the kick in the nads will be all that more painful when she decides you are super lame.

[ahopkins22LSV]

43 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Kids play the long game... first she will think you are the coolest guy on earth, so that the kick in the nads will be all that more painful when she decides you are super lame.

True. My wife has thought I’m lame for about 8 years. 

[Gavin17]

2 hours ago, IXFE said:

The new boats that we are talking about (ie 23 LSV) have 1.76 : 1 transmission ratios. That’s been Malibu’s “go to” transmission since 2016  

The exceptions are the following:

* 21 VLX / MLX has 1.5 : 1 (‘17+)

* M235, 24 MXZ (‘17+), and 25 LSV (‘17+) which have 2 : 1

But your point is valid, it’s very difficult, if not impossible to compare the performance of today’s boats vs a decade ago and attribute what you’re feeling entirely to the engine.  Having owned a lot of the different engine/trans/prop combos over my past seven Malibus, I can tell you that on this forum we attribute way to much to engine choice and not enough to trans and prop.  

One example of that is when I went from my ‘16 23 LSV (410/1.76:1/15”) to a ‘17 25 LSV (450/2:1/17”).  I fully expected the 25 to exhibit higher RPM’s than the 23 due to the 2:1 transmission, as you pointed out.  I was pleasantly surprised to find the opposite!  Surf RPM’s dropped by 400-500!  Why?  I believe the answer is the 17” prop which moves more water than a 15” prop, thus achieving the desired speed more efficiently.

Going back to a 23 LSV this year and I fully expect my surf RPM’s will be back up.  See the pic below of my 25 LSV while surfing with 5 people on board.  I challenge anybody (myself included) to achieve those RPM’s in a ‘18 23 LSV...

 

 

 

 Thanks for some actual info to help out my "off the cuff" remarks.  

Is there a shaft angle difference for the 1.76 and 2:1 transmissions?  How does the prop diameter change and potential shaft angle change affect cruising speed, wakeboard or  skiing speed (as if anyone skis there 25' boat)?  Since so many boats are sold with surf only thinking many people may not care about these things.  I'm not new boat shopping just trying to satisfy some scientific curiosity.  In theory the larger prop has more drag and it's efficiency will be inversely related to it's speed.  In practice none of these boats may be fast enough for that to matter.  

I guess what I'm really asking is what's the downside to the 17" props (Besides the prop price tag)

[IXFE]

1 hour ago, Gavin17 said:

 Thanks for some actual info to help out my "off the cuff" remarks.  

Is there a shaft angle difference for the 1.76 and 2:1 transmissions?  How does the prop diameter change and potential shaft angle change affect cruising speed, wakeboard or  skiing speed (as if anyone skis there 25' boat)?  Since so many boats are sold with surf only thinking many people may not care about these things.  I'm not new boat shopping just trying to satisfy some scientific curiosity.  In theory the larger prop has more drag and it's efficiency will be inversely related to it's speed.  In practice none of these boats may be fast enough for that to matter.  

I guess what I'm really asking is what's the downside to the 17" props (Besides the prop price tag)

Yes i believe the prop shaft of the 2:1 transmission has to be every so slightly steeper so that it can clear the 17” prop... unless the shaft starts a little bit forward in order the maintain the same angle. I doubt it, but it’s a possibility. 

Another fun fact... the shaft that swings that 17” prop is thicker than the standard shafts. I learned this the hard way when I bent my 17” prop last year and tried to change it out using the standard prop puller... it was too small to fit around the bigger shaft!!  I guess you could say that’s a downside.

As for other downsides... I can’t think of any. If it produces more drag it sure didn’t show in the performance I witnessed all summer. Seriously, that 25 was the biggest, heaviest Malibu I’ve ever owned and yet it exhibited the lowest surf RPM’s of any of my boats. What does that tell you??  

Kinda bummed to be going back to a 15” if I’m being honest... 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Nitrousbird]

9 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Yes i believe the prop shaft of the 2:1 transmission has to be every so slightly steeper so that it can clear the 17” prop... unless the shaft starts a little bit forward in order the maintain the same angle. I doubt it, but it’s a possibility. 

What was the prop-to-hull clearance on the 17" prop?  Every V-drive Malibu ever made will clear a 15" safely.  I am curious what they did to increase the clearance.  I can't recall what the clearance is on my 15" other than it was well over the recommended minimum, but I know a 17" wouldn't safely fit.

Acme is now offering a few interesting 15.5" offerings that might fit your new boat, though most have too much pitch.  I'd say it is worth taking a good look at those, especially the 2921 (15.5 / 12.5 / .075).    

[IXFE]

11 minutes ago, Nitrousbird said:

What was the prop-to-hull clearance on the 17" prop?  Every V-drive Malibu ever made will clear a 15" safely.  I am curious what they did to increase the clearance.  I can't recall what the clearance is on my 15" other than it was well over the recommended minimum, but I know a 17" wouldn't safely fit.

Acme is now offering a few interesting 15.5" offerings that might fit your new boat, though most have too much pitch.  I'd say it is worth taking a good look at those, especially the 2921 (15.5 / 12.5 / .075).    

This is a lousy pic but it’s all I have from that day. Hard to tell at this angle against the black gel coat, but if you look in relation to the top of the rudder there appears to be gobs of clearance. 

[Gavin17]

The lower gear ratio provides more torque to the prop so the shaft is larger. Pretty sure you're allowed to keep a boat more than a year if liked the big prop.

 

[hethj7]

2 minutes ago, Gavin17 said:

Pretty sure you're allowed to keep a boat more than a year if liked the big prop.

 

 Now that right there made me laugh!

[Cole2001]

8 hours ago, IXFE said:

The new boats that we are talking about (ie 23 LSV) have 1.76 : 1 transmission ratios. That’s been Malibu’s “go to” transmission since 2016  

The exceptions are the following:

* 21 VLX / MLX has 1.5 : 1 (‘17+)

* M235, 24 MXZ (‘17+), and 25 LSV (‘17+) which have 2 : 1

But your point is valid, it’s very difficult, if not impossible to compare the performance of today’s boats vs a decade ago and attribute what you’re feeling entirely to the engine.  Having owned a lot of the different engine/trans/prop combos over my past seven Malibus, I can tell you that on this forum we attribute way to much to engine choice and not enough to trans and prop.  

One example of that is when I went from my ‘16 23 LSV (410/1.76:1/15”) to a ‘17 25 LSV (450/2:1/17”).  I fully expected the 25 to exhibit higher RPM’s than the 23 due to the 2:1 transmission, as you pointed out.  I was pleasantly surprised to find the opposite!  Surf RPM’s dropped by 400-500!  Why?  I believe the answer is the 17” prop which moves more water than a 15” prop, thus achieving the desired speed more efficiently.

Going back to a 23 LSV this year and I fully expect my surf RPM’s will be back up.  See the pic below of my 25 LSV while surfing with 5 people on board.  I challenge anybody (myself included) to achieve those RPM’s in a ‘18 23 LSV...

 

 

 

I think it’s the 2:1 transmission creating more low end torque amounting for the rpms to be lower. The guys on tigeowners are swearing by it in the rzx’s. I’m not the mechanical one to explain the science behind it. But when they used to run 440 raptors, the 400 and the 2:1 is now providing tons more power and efficiency. 

Not saying the larger prop didn’t help, as it sure did, the combination of the two would have drastically improved performance. 

[Arctic Slalom]

back to the OP.  Keep your money. An older boat in great shape can do 90% of what a newer boat can with much less expense. Don't spread yourself too thin to buy a little bit better wake (or image on the water).  

the boat debit will last much longer than your improved image out on the water. 

[Dwake]

On 2/11/2018 at 11:02 AM, Arctic Slalom said:

back to the OP.  Keep your money. An older boat in great shape can do 90% of what a newer boat can with much less expense. Don't spread yourself too thin to buy a little bit better wake (or image on the water).  

the boat debit will last much longer than your improved image out on the water. 

Thing is I demoed one and it’s a big difference.  I’m with you in that I have no interest in impressing anyone with a new status symbol, nor am  interested in a little improvement on performance.  I can definitely add more to my boat to give me the piggy back automation and save a ton of money, But I got to admit I was blow away with the wake surf performance of this new 23lsv.  I can honesty say that I care only about the surf wave and I’m sold!  You got to ride behind one if you wanting more from yours.

[hethj7]

4 hours ago, Dwake said:

Thing is I demoed one and it’s a big difference.  I’m with you in that I have no interest in impressing anyone with a new status symbol, nor am  interested in a little improvement on performance.  I can definitely add more to my boat to give me the piggy back automation and save a ton of money, But I got to admit I was blow away with the wake surf performance of this new 23lsv.  I can honesty say that I care only about the surf wave and I’m sold!  You got to ride behind one if you wanting more from yours.

Got to say, between the wake, the room, the convenience features, etc. we spend waaaay more time on our new boat than we did the old one.