2004 wakes vs 2018 wakes $90K difference?.

[05hammerhead]

Terry - Im surprised you need that much weight in the bow to surf.  If Im not surfing Starboard side, I put 0 weight up front for my boat.   Otherwise your setup sounds just fine. 

[kerpluxal]

On 1/20/2018 at 11:39 PM, TerryBono said:

 

My Setup:

Full MLS including bow tank

980lb Wakemakers piggyback setup in the rear storage compartments

1000lb fly high bow sack and throwover pump (some have put a dedicated reversible in for this or done lead)

15 Dollar suction surf gate made from home depot floating siding and a harbor freight suction cup.

Manual wedge down.

👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽 Any ideas for my boat on what exactly I should buy and found a few people recommending I buy anupgrade to my perfect pass  

 

 

Terry,

How many people in your crew when riding? What kind of upgrade are they recommending for your perfect pass? water depth? Issues you are having with your setup?

You can pm me also if you like.

[UWSkier]

Seems like a lot of bow weight to me also.  Look on the hub of the prop to see which you have.  If it's the factory prop, it's probably an Acme 537, which will lug your engine quite a bit with as much weight as you posted about.

That era 23 LSV had a hard time with PerfectPass Paddlewheel location for slower speed running.  There were turbulence issues.  I suspect the PP upgrade you were recommended would be the Stargazer GPS version???

[asnowman]

@Dwake this past summer we started asking the same question.  We surfed behind @mainekneeboarder boat, he has the surf wake pretty dialed in on it, and behind our vtx. We get a lot more flexibility to tailor the wave using the power wedge,  but to be honest the best wave isn't that different to me. Surfing is really not our primary focus though. We like it best when we have a large crowd. 

Is it 50-90k better?? Well we were shopping for a 25 lsv to replace our vtx this fall.  We couldn't quite pull the trigger, and that had a lot of factors, but one was cost. We don't normally have a really big crew, and the big sumo type pumps make filling and draining bags easy enough.

Go do a demo and decide. I love our 05 lxi for slalom, it's simple to maintain, and reliable,  newer boats, not always as easy to maintain. They are absolutely easier to set up, and much more spacious inside. 50k buys a lot of gas, parts and extras....

We plan to put our $ into a lake house this year, then maybe we will look into the newer boat.

[Dwake]

 

Terry bono

 

 

In my 2004 vlx

1000lbs in bow

500lb midship tank full

650lbs in each rear locker.  1300lbs total in transon

wedge down

I use wakesurf edge for my wake gate, delayed convergence device.

run 10.3 mph and drive straight

no exhaust device, don’t seem to have issue.

if just 1 person in boat  I put another 200lbs in left ski locker.

 

if you don’t put a lot of weight in the bow you loose the length of the wave.  I also believe that without the bow weight the wedge angle is less and with to much bow rise the wedge it’s actually lifting the transom instead of pulling it down.  This was always the case with this boat.  I and others in 2004 found that adding bow weight made the wake  better and it’s true for the surf wave.  But yes you got to be careful about putting the nose of boat into wakes it takes practice driving.  Fill the bow last empty it first

im 250 so if this set up gives me push it should do it for 250 and less.  If not it’s the board and the skill.  The bigger you are the move board you need.  I can ride a 58” phase 5 model X and 60” phase 5 trident all day ripping it up.  Took me about 3 sessions to find the push and never need the rope.  Eventually you learn to pump and can ride out of the pocket and pump back in.

 

bags and pumps at wakemakers.com  

Fly high pro x fat sacs

2 400lb v Drive sacs

1 1000lb bow sac

 

and of course fill you stock ballast.  500 mid ship, 250 each locker.  The stock plus the bags adds up to my set up I described above

 

 

you can go nuts with the plumbing or just by a pump and manually fill them.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Dwake

[TerryBono]

@UWSkier

perfect pass is recommending I do this:

To first upgrade my display for $249 US.  Then you have a few options depending on what you want to do with the system.  For Wake Edition  it is $549 US and is a great all round recreational system for Slalom, Wakeboarding and surfing.

[Gavin17]

Of course they want you to upgrade!!$$$

 

If you need the upgrade go for it, if your setup is working now then keep your money.  I upgraded my PP last year from paddlewheel to gps.  The paddlewheel actually worked really well for skiing and wakeboarding but it just didn't hold speed very well when surfing. When surfing with gps my speed is plus or minus .2 mph or so.  With the paddle wheel it was plus or minus closer to 1 mph which is enough to bother the surfer.  Maybe your paddlewheel works better than mine did but if not you may want to upgrade.   If you boat on a river and have to account for current speeds you may want to stick with the paddlewheel.  

I got in an argument here with someone who said that gps readings on a river were wrong.  I still maintain that they're not wrong, they just don't measure what  you we're hoping to measure.  

[pauley71]

On 1/10/2018 at 8:31 AM, Nitrousbird said:

Where are you getting 90k?  Yes, there are 120k+ Malibu's - which is not a fair comparison to your boat.

A much more fair comparison would be comparing to an 2018 21VLX at 80k.  Now we are at a $50,000 difference.  Obviously still a lot, but you get:
-  Brand new boat with warranty, instead of a 14 year old boat
-  Wider hull (and larger interior as a result)
-  Surf gate, power wedge, lots of electronics/toys, much nicer tower, etc.

Will the wake with PNP bags be better?  Yes.  50k better, no...but the 50k is buying more than JUST a better surf wave.  Some folks can justify the 50k difference - others can't.  I would like a newer boat as well and we go back/forth on upgrading.  That said, our boat still puts out a nice wave as I've really dialed it in.  Mine isn't a pain to fill at all (5 bags, all hidden/plumbed).  I won't buy new (prefer others to work out the warranty issues they all seem to have and eat that early depreciation), but 2-3 year old used would be considered (22VLX would be the most likely bet).  That said, putting that cash into an upgraded boat versus other things sometimes becomes hard to justify.

^bird answered the Ops question but I will say that a T23 (at even less money) is probably a better comparison given the tech in a Malibu is hard to 'compare'.  You are probably more like 40k difference and you get 102" beam (more than 21VLX) and a 23.5' boat.  Great surfing out of the box .. less arguing over the best setup and more surfing!  It all comes down to people's financial situation.  Even if you can afford it, it may not be a priority.  Maybe you can't really afford it but its a big part of your life .. then you find a way to make it work. 

[05hammerhead]

8 hours ago, Dwake said:

In my 2004 vlx

1000lbs in bow

500lb midship tank full

650lbs in each rear locker.  1300lbs total in transon

wedge down

I use wakesurf edge for my wake gate, delayed convergence device.

run 10.3 mph and drive straight

no exhaust device, don’t seem to have issue.

if just 1 person in boat  I put another 200lbs in left ski locker.

This is crazy. Are the 2004 and 2005 that different?  My setup is 0/500/2000 vs your 1000/500/1300.  Same wedge and speed.  Im seriously surprised on the difference.

[hethj7]

I am not a position to say for sure, but 2005 was the new hull on the VLX, correct?  If so, it wouldn't surprise me to see quite a difference.  I loved the SV23 on my VLX, but was always told the SV25 on the next VLX was one of the best.  

[05hammerhead]

It is a new hull and agreed its bomb, but thats a huge weight swing. 

[DockRocketeer]

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 8:31 AM, Nitrousbird said:

Where are you getting 90k?  Yes, there are 120k+ Malibu's - which is not a fair comparison to your boat.

A much more fair comparison would be comparing to an 2018 21VLX at 80k.  Now we are at a $50,000 difference.  Obviously still a lot, but you get:
-  Brand new boat with warranty, instead of a 14 year old boat
-  Wider hull (and larger interior as a result)
-  Surf gate, power wedge, lots of electronics/toys, much nicer tower, etc.

Will the wake with PNP bags be better?  Yes.  50k better, no...but the 50k is buying more than JUST a better surf wave.  Some folks can justify the 50k difference - others can't.  I would like a newer boat as well and we go back/forth on upgrading.  That said, our boat still puts out a nice wave as I've really dialed it in.  Mine isn't a pain to fill at all (5 bags, all hidden/plumbed).  I won't buy new (prefer others to work out the warranty issues they all seem to have and eat that early depreciation), but 2-3 year old used would be considered (22VLX would be the most likely bet).  That said, putting that cash into an upgraded boat versus other things sometimes becomes hard to justify.

I had a chance to demo a 21 VLX with nearly a 120 hours and it was a bad SoB.  Well equipped new boat for just over $80K has me sold.  Beautiful Surf wake with only rear PnP and big enough that I wasn't dock swapping friends  I'm more into the low impact of surfing considering my body is starting to hate me, but never heard a single complaint from the wake skaters and wake boarders that I had to a chance to watch.

[AJwakedevil]

7 hours ago, 05hammerhead said:

This is crazy. Are the 2004 and 2005 that different?  My setup is 0/500/2000 vs your 1000/500/1300.  Same wedge and speed.  Im seriously surprised on the difference.

 

3 hours ago, 05hammerhead said:

It is a new hull and agreed its bomb, but thats a huge weight swing.

mine is 650/500/2100 with 250lbs of lead moving opposite of where ppl are sitting. Wedge and ghetto gate. No weight up front leads to a mushy, tall/vertical but short/horizontal wave. Unless you have uncle Mark and the funky bunch sitting in the bow too... Or a cooler full of Spotted Cow and Point Special 

[05hammerhead]

18 minutes ago, AJwakedevil said:

 

mine is 650/500/2100 with 250lbs of lead moving opposite of where ppl are sitting. Wedge and ghetto gate. No weight up front leads to a mushy, tall/vertical but short/horizontal wave. Unless you have uncle Mark and the funky bunch sitting in the bow too... Or a cooler full of Spotted Cow and Point Special 

Sounds like you need to stop out and help me getter tuned...bringing that spotted cow..

[AJwakedevil]

On 1/24/2018 at 4:29 PM, 05hammerhead said:

Sounds like you need to stop out and help me getter tuned...bringing that spotted cow..

If you make it up to Fish lake in maple grove area we can both tow our boats there, get er dialed in, and have a boat for riding and a boat for spotted cow festivities

[05hammerhead]

21 hours ago, AJwakedevil said:

If you make it up to Fish lake in maple grove area we can both tow our boats there, get er dialed in, and have a boat for riding and a boat for spotted cow festivities

I like it.  I live on Lake Waconia, so dont get it back on a trailer very often, but Ill keep ya in the loop.

[Dwake]

On 1/9/2018 at 11:31 PM, Dwake said:

So I been wakesurfing behind my 2004 Malibu vlx for a few months now.  I also surf behind a 2006 super air nat.

I think both boats are bad a** wakeboard boats to this day ( although I still lean to my bu).  I have added a lot more ballast and a manual mounted surf gate style device.  I can surf all day.  I am a heavy dude at 250.  Besides the ease of use in wake set up and stuff I just don’t get the new boats at 120k.  Is the wave really 90 k better than my now used valued at about 30k vlx.  I had to put about $1500 and some elbo grease to get a somewhat easy ballast extension on it and yea it’s a pain in the a#$ to get it filled and going but are the newer vlx, lsv, etc... really that much better of a wave.  I see video after video and not seeing a whole lot of eye popping difference in wake performance, just a bunch of automation and blingie frills.  Am I missing something?   Stripping the boats down to hull and wave side by side is there really a HUGE difference?

i see the specs but never seen specs for wave measurements. Just a whole lot of marketing.

unless you got a 10 ton 60 ft  yacht the wave isn’t that much different.  I mean it is but the effective wave size to displacement ratio diminishes fairly quickly.  Like a 10k lb total weight boat doesn’t have twice the wave size as a 5k lb total weight boat.

does someone have a real side by side experience between older wake board boat hull to wave performance?

i plan to demo a newer model but got a feeling I’ll be disappointed and keep my money.   Especially if a see any plastic on it instead of stainless and aluminum

 

Update update on original post.

I did the demo on the 2018 lsv.  I got to say i was impressed with the wave.  It is longer and bigger and definitely had more push.  I am used to riding my board with front foot all the way up at the end of the trac pad and my back foot way in from the back.  On the new lsv immediately had to walk back on the board or i would slam into the back.  Im talking like 6-8 inches back.  The pocket was longer and the wave in general was forgiving as heak.  I was all over it and it was almost effortless to stay on it compared to my current boat and set up.  

Didnt mess around with the wedge but the rep daid he had it set in the middle so i think that means just that.  It was running the stock plus the the pnp in the back lockers, i think its like 400 or a bit more in eack locker.  

Not that it needs it but I would think more weight would get the wave even better.  Prob put wedge all the way down with like 1000 in bow and maybe another 500-1000 back midship.  But this is all speculation until you try it.

now the 2018 23 lsv review of just boat itself.  Had the moonson 410.  I was skeptical because i got the same power in My 2004 vlx but it did the job.  I guess the combination of the wedge lift off feature and the bigger prop really helps this engine out.  Did seem to be turning some higher rpms at 22mph like 4000rpm but it was loaded up so i cant really do a side by side.  The totally different boats.  The interior of the boat is nice.  They moved the helm up towards the bow and it really opens up the boat.  Im not a bow user so this is for me great.  Only found 1 piece of plastic on the boat and it was the 23lsv emblem light so ill let it slide.

the stereo is all integrated now amps and all into the malivue or what ever they call it.  This makes me nervous because of inflated prices of exact replacement.  After market audio is way cheaper than factory. I am on system #3 on my 2004.  Everything been ripped out 3 times.  Its a boat on the water its going to happen.  But they do give a 5 year warranty on the electronics.

so bottom line the new 2018 lsv is a huge wave improvement over the almost sunk 2004 vlx.  Im guessing here but the new vlx is prop better too just not near as better as the 23.

and i wanted to mention that judging a boats wave by the videos is not a good gauge.  You got to ride it.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Dwake

[Nitrousbird]

13 minutes ago, Dwake said:

Had the moonson 410.  I was skeptical because i got the same power in My 2004 vlx but it did the job.

What motor do you have that has the same power is the 6.2L Ford based Indmar in that LSV?

[Dwake]

31 minutes ago, Nitrousbird said:

What motor do you have that has the same power is the 6.2L Ford based Indmar in that LSV?

Moonson 340.  Which in 2004 the # was the HP.  5.7L 340hp 396 torque.  I think it is a GM LS3. But the specs are as above.

the 410 ford is 350hp 400 torque.  

Calling it a 410 moonson over a 400 raptor is marketing

[Nitrousbird]

2 hours ago, Dwake said:

Moonson 340.  Which in 2004 the # was the HP.  5.7L 340hp 396 torque.  I think it is a GM LS3. But the specs are as above.

the 410 ford is 350hp 400 torque.  

Calling it a 410 moonson over a 400 raptor is marketing

Your motor is the old GEN-I SBC motor, last updated in 1996, where it received a standard cooling flow version of the LT1 heads that came out in 1992 (as the LT1/LT4 has reverse coolant flow head).  The LS3 had not even come out in cars until 2008 model year and wasn't seen in a Malibu until 2010.  Indmar was overstating the HP numbers then for sure...it wasn't making that kind of power.  The 6.2L Ford is making more HP/Torque and has a higher ratio transmission, so there is a torque multiplication advantage as well.

[NWBU]

3 hours ago, Dwake said:

 

Update update on original post.

I did the demo on the 2018 lsv.  I got to say i was impressed with the wave.  It is longer and bigger and definitely had more push.  I am used to riding my board with front foot all the way up at the end of the trac pad and my back foot way in from the back.  On the new lsv immediately had to walk back on the board or i would slam into the back.  Im talking like 6-8 inches back.  The pocket was longer and the wave in general was forgiving as heak.  I was all over it and it was almost effortless to stay on it compared to my current boat and set up.  

Didnt mess around with the wedge but the rep daid he had it set in the middle so i think that means just that.  It was running the stock plus the the pnp in the back lockers, i think its like 400 or a bit more in eack locker.  

Not that it needs it but I would think more weight would get the wave even better.  Prob put wedge all the way down with like 1000 in bow and maybe another 500-1000 back midship.  But this is all speculation until you try it.

now the 2018 23 lsv review of just boat itself.  Had the moonson 410.  I was skeptical because i got the same power in My 2004 vlx but it did the job.  I guess the combination of the wedge lift off feature and the bigger prop really helps this engine out.  Did seem to be turning some higher rpms at 22mph like 4000rpm but it was loaded up so i cant really do a side by side.  The totally different boats.  The interior of the boat is nice.  They moved the helm up towards the bow and it really opens up the boat.  Im not a bow user so this is for me great.  Only found 1 piece of plastic on the boat and it was the 23lsv emblem light so ill let it slide.

the stereo is all integrated now amps and all into the malivue or what ever they call it.  This makes me nervous because of inflated prices of exact replacement.  After market audio is way cheaper than factory. I am on system #3 on my 2004.  Everything been ripped out 3 times.  Its a boat on the water its going to happen.  But they do give a 5 year warranty on the electronics.

so bottom line the new 2018 lsv is a huge wave improvement over the almost sunk 2004 vlx.  Im guessing here but the new vlx is prop better too just not near as better as the 23.

and i wanted to mention that judging a boats wave by the videos is not a good gauge.  You got to ride it.

Sounds like a good demo, since you started off being pretty skeptical of it.

[Dwake]

23 hours ago, Nitrousbird said:

Your motor is the old GEN-I SBC motor, last updated in 1996, where it received a standard cooling flow version of the LT1 heads that came out in 1992 (as the LT1/LT4 has reverse coolant flow head).  The LS3 had not even come out in cars until 2008 model year and wasn't seen in a Malibu until 2010.  Indmar was overstating the HP numbers then for sure...it wasn't making that kind of power.  The 6.2L Ford is making more HP/Torque and has a higher ratio transmission, so there is a torque multiplication advantage as well.

So how much do you think its was over stated?  Wouldnt it be accurate to say that indmar overstate the current #s too.  doubt that habit changed.  But as far as feel goes the new much heavier boat seemed to have good power. Talking feel here not numbers.  But less of a power feel then my 2004.   My old boat has more of a power feel for sure.  Never dogs never cavitated.  Im still leaning towards the prop and trans ratio being the big difference.  I dont under stand trans ratios but my 2004 runs way lower in rpms like 1000 less and i got a torque prop on it.  Would the newer ratio be the reason for higher rpms.  In the long run is this engine going to have less of a life?

 

[Gavin17]

I think my 2004 has a 1.5:1 trans ratio.  I think the new boats are 2:1. 

 

If my boat is cruising at 3000 engine rpm then the prop is spinning at 2000 rpm  (3000/1.5)

The new boat with the same prop would need 4000 rpm to match my speed because it has a lower gear ratio.  

 

More engine rpm doesn't necessarily mean less engine life.  Since they are completely different engines it's more complicated than that. 

 

In general the new boats are larger and heavier and require more power.  So what most companies have done is.

use  more powerful engines that can spin faster than my small block chevy. 

use  lower gear ratios to increase torque to the prop

use larger props to improve performance

 

Since they've changed so many things in the drivetrains since 2004 making comparisons isn't very useful.  The numbers I'd really want to know when comparing boats would be top speed,  time to plane, gallons per hour for whatever activity you prefer etc. 

[Nitrousbird]

53 minutes ago, Dwake said:

So how much do you think its was over stated?  Wouldnt it be accurate to say that indmar overstate the current #s too.  doubt that habit changed.  But as far as feel goes the new much heavier boat seemed to have good power. Talking feel here not numbers.  But less of a power feel then my 2004.   My old boat has more of a power feel for sure.  Never dogs never cavitated.  Im still leaning towards the prop and trans ratio being the big difference.  I dont under stand trans ratios but my 2004 runs way lower in rpms like 1000 less and i got a torque prop on it.  Would the newer ratio be the reason for higher rpms.  In the long run is this engine going to have less of a life?

The engine in yours is similar to the L31 truck engine.  HP, I'd say 300 is probably in the ballpark, with maybe 325-350ft/lb of torque.  The 340 Monsoon was the base motor in 2004; you had the 380 Hammer Head (same motor with better heads/intake but some issues to go with it), sadly the last year for the LS1 and also had the great 8.1L big block.  Malibu really slacked on the engine options from '05 - '09 but got serious again in '10+.  

Remember, the 6.2L Ford motor is a DOHC V8 with .5L more displacement.  It is a bigger motor internally and especially externally.  It is a detuned (mostly software) version of the higher output Ford 6.2L.  I don't agree with Malibu/Indmar going to those motors (and neither does Malibu, it seems, as this should be the last year of them before going to GM DI motors), but the fact remains it should be making at least 50HP & 50Lb/ft of torque more than your motor.  At least.  

Define "torque prop."  What some people call a torque prop others may call conservative.  Given equal props, that bigger boat with a higher ratio transmission will run higher RPM's due to pushing more weight and way more surface area along with the more aggressive ratio.  I personally like power to spare so prefer the upgraded motors - I have way more power/prop than I will ever need, but it's nice to have when I need to hammer down.

[TerryBono]

Have any of you used Lenco swim tabs as an aftermarket install to wakesurf? I was going to buy a Surfgate with suction cups then found these Lenco automatic swim tabs so now I’m trying to find out if it’s a good idea  thank you again  

 

@UWSkier

perfect pass is recommending I do this:

To first upgrade my display for $249 US.  Then you have a few options depending on what you want to do with the system.  For Wake Edition  it is $549 US and is a great all round recreational system for Slalom, Wakeboarding and surfing.