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2004 wakes vs 2018 wakes $90K difference?.


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So I been wakesurfing behind my 2004 Malibu vlx for a few months now.  I also surf behind a 2006 super air nat.

I think both boats are bad a** wakeboard boats to this day ( although I still lean to my bu).  I have added a lot more ballast and a manual mounted surf gate style device.  I can surf all day.  I am a heavy dude at 250.  Besides the ease of use in wake set up and stuff I just don’t get the new boats at 120k.  Is the wave really 90 k better than my now used valued at about 30k vlx.  I had to put about $1500 and some elbo grease to get a somewhat easy ballast extension on it and yea it’s a pain in the a#$ to get it filled and going but are the newer vlx, lsv, etc... really that much better of a wave.  I see video after video and not seeing a whole lot of eye popping difference in wake performance, just a bunch of automation and blingie frills.  Am I missing something?   Stripping the boats down to hull and wave side by side is there really a HUGE difference?

i see the specs but never seen specs for wave measurements. Just a whole lot of marketing.

unless you got a 10 ton 60 ft  yacht the wave isn’t that much different.  I mean it is but the effective wave size to displacement ratio diminishes fairly quickly.  Like a 10k lb total weight boat doesn’t have twice the wave size as a 5k lb total weight boat.

does someone have a real side by side experience between older wake board boat hull to wave performance?

i plan to demo a newer model but got a feeling I’ll be disappointed and keep my money.   Especially if a see any plastic on it instead of stainless and aluminum

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You could use this argument for many things. Why drive a brand new Mercedes when you can drive a 10 year old Kia, still gets you from a to b, travel trailers, motorbikes, atv’s etc. These are all depreciating toys, some love the newest best thing, some have more disposable income that it just doesn’t matter, the reasons are endless  

I’d say don’t wast yours on the dealers time with a demo. Sounds like you’ve already made up your mind. 

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27 minutes ago, Dwake said:

unless you got a 10 ton 60 ft  yacht the wave isn’t that much different.  

You mean centurion ri257?:biggrin:

 

It all comes down to the rider taking advantage and using the wave effectively. Personally I think a boat from ten years ago has a potential for a great wave but it’s nothing like today’s technology is putting out. The overall size of the wave may not seem as if it has increased significantly to the average person. But pictures don’t do justice. These new boats are pushing out waves with massive amounts of push and longer spaces of usable wave, no more searching for that sweet spot before doing tricks. 

 

  • Like 2
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Subjective.  There is a wide range of folks on here.  To some $90k is life-changing money and to others it may not dent their wallet.  

 

I picked up surfing in the late 90s, behind a carbd 1987 SN with lead and actual surfboards.  We had a blast because it was a novelty and we could do it when the tube pullers were tearing up the water too much to ski.  All in I doubt if we had $8k in the boat, skis, boards, extended pylon and gas money.  Some of the greatest days.  I don't think a $130k boat would have changed those memories much.  Im all for rocking what you've got and spending the savings to make more memories, not more payments.  

 

I like surfing still, but to it is to me a low impact alternative to wakeboard and slalom, but not a replacement.  For some it's what they live for and if they have the money they should absolutely do it.  

Edited by Pra4sno
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Where are you getting 90k?  Yes, there are 120k+ Malibu's - which is not a fair comparison to your boat.

A much more fair comparison would be comparing to an 2018 21VLX at 80k.  Now we are at a $50,000 difference.  Obviously still a lot, but you get:
-  Brand new boat with warranty, instead of a 14 year old boat
-  Wider hull (and larger interior as a result)
-  Surf gate, power wedge, lots of electronics/toys, much nicer tower, etc.

Will the wake with PNP bags be better?  Yes.  50k better, no...but the 50k is buying more than JUST a better surf wave.  Some folks can justify the 50k difference - others can't.  I would like a newer boat as well and we go back/forth on upgrading.  That said, our boat still puts out a nice wave as I've really dialed it in.  Mine isn't a pain to fill at all (5 bags, all hidden/plumbed).  I won't buy new (prefer others to work out the warranty issues they all seem to have and eat that early depreciation), but 2-3 year old used would be considered (22VLX would be the most likely bet).  That said, putting that cash into an upgraded boat versus other things sometimes becomes hard to justify.

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9 hours ago, Dwake said:

I had to put about $1500 and some elbo grease to get a somewhat easy ballast extension on it

What is a ballast extension?

Reliability, warranty, dealer experience will all be better.  If your crew is constantly switching between standard and goofy sides, the new boats are really nice for that.   

Edited by River Monsters
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wake or wave?

I think both have gotten a lot better. 

BUT i think the wakeboard wakes have gotten exponentially bigger thicker and more poppy. 

Surf waves have gotten bigger, and the systems are easier to change the wave shape and side. 

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2 hours ago, River Monsters said:

What is a ballast extension?

Reliability, warranty, dealer experience will all be better.  If your crew is constantly switching between standard and goofy sides, the new boats are really nice for that.   

Reliability - I beg to differ.  We have had our boat for 7 seasons and it has been very reliable...most issues have been self caused (bent props and ripped off tracking fins).  Warranty - again, useless on a reliable, sorted boat.  Closest Malibu dealer to me is now over 2 hours away.  If I had a 7 year warranty on my boat, it would have saved me probably $400 - $500 in parts and 3-4 hours of labor - I would have spent more time driving to the dealer once than the labor would have saved me.  The drives I would have had to take would have ate much of that money savings in fuel.  Everything else wouldn't have been covered under warranty. 

Further, new boats ALWAYS have a punch list of issues that need dealt with.  As for dealer experience, that is only if you want to deal with a dealer.  I prefer fixing my own stuff, from a how the boat is treated to spending less time DIY than dealing with the dealer.

 

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Went through this same scenario in my mind when visiting the dealer a few weeks back.  Used LSV: $40k -$50k vs new $110ish. 

I think, as noted earlier in the thread, to some folks $50k - $90k isn't a dent.  And the price of convenience and having some of the best tech, they are willing - and can pay for.  That's why the market is what it is.  If Malibu wasn't selling M235 and 25 LSV's, they certainly wouldn't be making them.

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As a few people have already stated, the answer to "is it worth it" is all up to the owner. I went from a 2007 23LSV with a unicorn Titan 3 tower to a new 2017 25LSV. We absolutely loved the 2007 and I still ride in/behind it since it was sold to my best friend. We went with a new boat because it's bigger and produces a better surf wave without the risk of dipping the front. To get the same surf wave out of the 2007, the front is always at risk of going under. But, see what I said......same surf wave. We have the 2007 pretty dialed in after years of experimenting. I felt the amount of weight was taxing the 10yr old motor/trans/hull too much. So, the 25LSV is gonna be the surf pig when we have a big crew that wants a day of surfing. The 2007 will be the main foiling boat since it does that duty so damn well. 

So, go surf/board/foil/what ever behind a new boat and see if you "need" the upgrade. Only you can make that decision. 

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Definitely up to you man.  But if youre looking for a short answer, my boat sacked to the gills is the weight equivalent to an empty M235.  But, anecdotally, 2x the displacement = 2x the wave = 2x the gas = 2x the payments = 2x the  towing cap of your vehicle.  If I had the cash, Id spend it, but bought a house instead.

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On 1/10/2018 at 10:48 AM, IXFE said:

@Dwake... 21 posts in 12 years, and first post in over 5 years!   Way to come out of hibernation swinging! 

 

Who's swinging at who?  Dude seems to be asking a legitimate question, not knocking malibu.  Some of you guys act like its your job to defend malibu...  Calling people out for their post counts.... smh

The biggest difference you will find is the convenience.  It has made it easier to enjoy doing multiple sports, different sides of the wake, etc...  ballast fill times are faster, presets make it easier to recall settings, etc....   There has also been improvements in vinyl and carpet.  Engine tech has improved...new engines are cleaner burning, easier to diagnose problems due to added electronics, and more economical.

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Winter is wearing on us.  

90K is 3 years of income to some guys, and 3 months to others, so the value of 90K is a huge part of the equation, as others have pointed out.  

My recreation time is really valuable to me, so even the delayed time of filling sacks and getting 'set up' is worth quite a bit.  I would like to go to a cheaper boat, but the more expensive boat has made my recreation time more efficient, and I am willing to pay for that.  My smiles per mile have gone up with the newer boat.  

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On 1/9/2018 at 10:31 PM, Dwake said:

So I been wakesurfing behind my 2004 Malibu vlx for a few months now.  I also surf behind a 2006 super air nat.

I think both boats are bad a** wakeboard boats to this day ( although I still lean to my bu).  I have added a lot more ballast and a manual mounted surf gate style device.  I can surf all day.  I am a heavy dude at 250.  Besides the ease of use in wake set up and stuff I just don’t get the new boats at 120k.  Is the wave really 90 k better than my now used valued at about 30k vlx.  I had to put about $1500 and some elbo grease to get a somewhat easy ballast extension on it and yea it’s a pain in the a#$ to get it filled and going but are the newer vlx, lsv, etc... really that much better of a wave.  I see video after video and not seeing a whole lot of eye popping difference in wake performance, just a bunch of automation and blingie frills.  Am I missing something?   Stripping the boats down to hull and wave side by side is there really a HUGE difference?

i see the specs but never seen specs for wave measurements. Just a whole lot of marketing.

unless you got a 10 ton 60 ft  yacht the wave isn’t that much different.  I mean it is but the effective wave size to displacement ratio diminishes fairly quickly.  Like a 10k lb total weight boat doesn’t have twice the wave size as a 5k lb total weight boat.

does someone have a real side by side experience between older wake board boat hull to wave performance?

i plan to demo a newer model but got a feeling I’ll be disappointed and keep my money.   Especially if a see any plastic on it instead of stainless and aluminum

We moving from a 2012 A22 to a 2018 T22.  We surf as amateurs in CWSA contests so last summer we rode behind a G25, G23, Ri237(our favorite)  and a M235.  

Our wave was every bit as big as those boats but the difference was the wave shape.  Our 2012 wave is super flat (but huge) it's an awesome beginner wave and super fun to ride.  The problem is there is no lip.

Problem 2 is we would run full tanks, full pnp,  a bag on the rear seat, a bag under the side seat and a bag on top of the side seat.  The setup and tear down time really started to cut into our surf time and took up a lot of storage. We have a toddler and a new baby on the way this spring and we cannot waste any of our precious on the water time dealing with all the extra bags. 

If we had no kids and had more free time I might build a smaller platform for our boat and maybe put on GSA or a custom surfgate but I just can't take on those projects right now and then spend a season dialing it in. 

It really just depends on your situation... I remember when we first started surfing dialing in the perfect was was fun and we would switch our wave up during the day for fun.  Now dialing it in is a chore and I just want to surf ASAP.  Just as long as the wave has a good shape I am good with it and the new T22 does the job. 

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33 minutes ago, bamabonners said:

Who's swinging at who?  Dude seems to be asking a legitimate question, not knocking malibu.  Some of you guys act like its your job to defend malibu...  Calling people out for their post counts.... smh

The biggest difference you will find is the convenience.  It has made it easier to enjoy doing multiple sports, different sides of the wake, etc...  ballast fill times are faster, presets make it easier to recall settings, etc....   There has also been improvements in vinyl and carpet.  Engine tech has improved...new engines are cleaner burning, easier to diagnose problems due to added electronics, and more economical.

It wasn’t meant as an insult, only to acknowledge that the first post back was “meaty.”  

 And I answered his question, or maybe you missed it choosing only to focus on my opening line. Go back and read what I wrote and show me where I’m defending Malibu. I’m actually defending “new boats” of all brands. 

Its funny that you think I’m so one dimensional that you don’t even read my posts anymore. 

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40 minutes ago, vanamp said:

We moving from a 2012 A22 to a 2018 T22.  We surf as amateurs in CWSA contests so last summer we rode behind a G25, G23, Ri237(our favorite)  and a M235.  

Our wave was every bit as big as those boats but the difference was the wave shape.  Our 2012 wave is super flat (but huge) it's an awesome beginner wave and super fun to ride.  The problem is there is no lip.

Problem 2 is we would run full tanks, full pnp,  a bag on the rear seat, a bag under the side seat and a bag on top of the side seat.  The setup and tear down time really started to cut into our surf time and took up a lot of storage. We have a toddler and a new baby on the way this spring and we cannot waste any of our precious on the water time dealing with all the extra bags. 

If we had no kids and had more free time I might build a smaller platform for our boat and maybe put on GSA or a custom surfgate but I just can't take on those projects right now and then spend a season dialing it in. 

It really just depends on your situation... I remember when we first started surfing dialing in the perfect was was fun and we would switch our wave up during the day for fun.  Now dialing it in is a chore and I just want to surf ASAP.  Just as long as the wave has a good shape I am good with it and the new T22 does the job. 

Since this topic is kind of derailed already...  Do you ever wakeboard?  Hows the T22 wakeboard wake?

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5 hours ago, Gavin17 said:

Since this topic is kind of derailed already...  Do you ever wakeboard?  Hows the T22 wakeboard wake?

I don't wakeboard.  I grew up on a snowboard and am used to getting air.  It gives me a false sense that I can handle big air on a wakeboard.   It ends poorly everytime.  I can't handle falls like that anymore. 

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On 1/14/2018 at 11:58 AM, Gavin17 said:

Since this topic is kind of derailed already...  Do you ever wakeboard?  Hows the T22 wakeboard wake?

Its good. 

On 1/14/2018 at 10:47 AM, bamabonners said:

Who's swinging at who?  Dude seems to be asking a legitimate question, not knocking malibu.  Some of you guys act like its your job to defend malibu...  Calling people out for their post counts.... smh

The biggest difference you will find is the convenience.  It has made it easier to enjoy doing multiple sports, different sides of the wake, etc...  ballast fill times are faster, presets make it easier to recall settings, etc....   There has also been improvements in vinyl and carpet.  Engine tech has improved...new engines are cleaner burning, easier to diagnose problems due to added electronics, and more economical.

Ballast fill times is only really relative to number/size of pumps.  A real easy fix.  

Added electronics is super nice but makes me super nervous about the cost to fix these when they eventually go bad(which we know the eventually will).  Tough to beat the fix-ability of an old chevy 350 and a bunch of dash switches. 

More economical is also relative - load the crap out of both and Im betting the older boat would do better for GPH due to sheer weight alone. 


ALL THAT SAID - if I could afford a new one, I would get one.  Balance your priorities and do what you want.  You can get to work in a 2005 ford taurus or a fresh ferrrari.  Whether its worth it is totally relative.  I drive a $3500 car and have a $35,000 boat and a $1M house. Pick your poison.

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Hello and Thank you all for sharing and posting in this thread. I am a brand new Malibu boat owner as of this past summer of 2017. I bought a 2004 Wakesetter 23 with a typhoon engine. I learned to wakeboard this summer and at 35 years old it hurts ha but nevertheless I and my family and friends fell in love with it. I would really love to add wake surf to me and my family this year and no matter how much I look on youtube and google I can not find reliable set ups for how to make my boat surf correctly or with a hey buy A. B. C.  Im hoping to keep the look the same ie no bags laying around the walking areas if thats even a problem or not. I would like to have the ballast bags (if i need to add bags per your recommendations and current uses) hidden and with switches so im not filling them up manually. Then If i need to have a wake surf gate or not (mission delta seems great)? I really like the fresh air exhaust system also since even with the use this summer with wake boarding and my kids tubing I did get the complaints of smell but I'm worried I would have to lose my wedge with what I've been able to find. Then if I need to buy a new prop? Really with your guys experience and years of use Im hoping to make this boat fit my families goals for years to come. Thank you again for the time and advice. In reply to the original post if I had the $ to spend Im sure I would have bought a Brand new. We can't do that but I know I can spend the extra to make this one surf its little butt off!!

 

With more searching last night I found this thread: 

Just took some crappy cell phone videos this weekend. I hope this helps solve all of the "200x VLX, what is the best ballast setup?" threads. Hint: It won't.

This is the ideal setup on a 2005-2008 VLX and most applies to the 2004-2008 LSV as well. Both boats are V25 hulls. Wake or Diamond shouldn't matter much here. Biggest difference is that some of these models had the power wedge option and some did not.

If you want to get a 200lb guy recovering from 10-15 feet off the rear platform then stay tuned...

Summary:

Full MLS

Lots of weight in the bow (1000+ pounds) <-- Basically as much as you can stomach without fear of sinking.

Lots of weight in the rears (1000+ pounds in each locker)

No other weight needed.

Wedge down if manual or a 1-2 clicks from down if power wedge

Surf Shaper (whatever flavor suits your DIY quotient or your budget if purchasing)

Slight list to surf side

10.7-11.2 (you calibrated your speedometer with GPS on your phone right? right?

OPTIONAL:

Walkway sacks 

Raise the platform 2" with spacers for when you are fully slammed.

My Setup:

Full MLS including bow tank

980lb Wakemakers piggyback setup in the rear storage compartments

1000lb fly high bow sack and throwover pump (some have put a dedicated reversible in for this or done lead)

15 Dollar suction surf gate made from home depot floating siding and a harbor freight suction cup.

Manual wedge down.

👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽 Any ideas for my boat on what exactly I should buy and found a few people recommending I buy anupgrade to my perfect pass  

 

 

Edited by TerryBono
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