250/2500 level tow rig for +/- 30k (now increased budget)

[carguy79ta]

they can all be tuned. my 13 has a raceme tuner and I run the 200hp tune. also while towing.  I just don't get on it while towing.  I have to rein it in to keep it from wanting to go go go. tow the boat (with lead)and skidsteer, both about 11k. 

[shadetreefab]

2 hours ago, carguy79ta said:

they can all be tuned. my 13 has a raceme tuner and I run the 200hp tune. also while towing.  I just don't get on it while towing.  I have to rein it in to keep it from wanting to go go go. tow the boat (with lead)and skidsteer, both about 11k. 

I don't think he's trying to go to the sun coast/ revmax & studs level.

[sunvalleylaw]

Yah, I don't need a huge fancy tune or anything.  Nothing crazy anyway.  If I could increase mileage a good bit, and still have good torque/power when I need it, I would consider one.  I don't need to set land speed towing records.  Road over the hill we pull most often gets down to about 35 mph max for towing, because it is so twisty.   

And yeah, I like that it doesn't use DEF.  I keep playing with the idea of some 1500 level, like an eco-boost, or eco-diesel, but for my towing and camper handling needs at altitude (over an 8,700 foot pass to our usual camping/boating spot), I would rather be more within capacity than pushing it, even if I could stabilize the rear end with some bags.  But, I will look into what tunes could do for me.  I put a tune on my VW TDI (2005 Passat) and that has been nice.  Nothing too crazy, but helped an older car out.  

[sunvalleylaw]

3 hours ago, That Guy said:

Just a thought if you need leather...you should be able to add leather seats to any vehicle for $700-$1500 depending on options. I did that with my f150, added katzkin leather and have no complaints. 

I did that to an older Jeep Wagoneer I had once.  Actually, I swapped over the seating from a dead Grand Wagoneer, into mine with a 5 speed, manual everything, and bench seats that bounced you through the roof.  It was an improvement.  But that was a quirky tow rig.  I am looking to be more conventional now.  And something that I trust more on longer trips.  Also, the mileage absolutely sucked on that old Jeep. 

[shadetreefab]

With rams 13 and newer you need an ecm unlock for turning, it makes custom tuning cost more. 

[sunvalleylaw]

8 minutes ago, shadetreefab said:

With rams 13 and newer you need an ecm unlock for turning, it makes custom tuning cost more. 

Good to know.

[RyanB]

DEF trucks get significantly better MPG, and there really isn’t hardly any additional cost. 

But to get a DEF RAM you need to go to 2013 + model year. 

I’m a MOPAR Guy. I’d say the sweet spot in 4th Gen pre-Def trucks is 2011.5 and 2012. 

07.5-09 had more emissions troubles and you  are in the old body style, so the 2010 would be a step up from those model years. 

[sunvalleylaw]

12 minutes ago, RyanB said:

DEF trucks get significantly better MPG, and there really isn’t hardly any additional cost. 

But to get a DEF RAM you need to go to 2013 + model year. 

I’m a MOPAR Guy. I’d say the sweet spot in 4th Gen pre-Def trucks is 2011.5 and 2012. 

07.5-09 had more emissions troubles and you  are in the old body style, so the 2010 would be a step up from those model years. 

That is a good consideration.  I do want to do what I can for the environment and do like good mileage.  I like this truck I am looking at, and am closing in on what I want, but may want to look into the MPG thing, and the sweet spot in the 4th gen is a consideration also.  I may need to learn a bit more about that.  This 2010 has been on the lot a while, and there are others around.  So though I like it, I will consider everything before pulling the trigger.  

Since the DEF trucks get better mileage, what is the downside to them?  

Edited February 20, 2018 by sunvalleylaw

[Pnwrider]

Downside is you have to buy def. 

[mackie12]

look for an 06/07 duramax with the LBZ motor, something under the 250K. this particular truck has none of the emission stuff on it and will last you a long time.

[RyanB]

59 minutes ago, mackie12 said:

look for an 06/07 duramax with the LBZ motor, something under the 250K. this particular truck has none of the emission stuff on it and will last you a long time.

The interior of an 06/07 (any brand) truck is not as nice as a 10+. Just like a 2010 isn’t as nice as a 15. You have to stop somewhere, but for me that is certainly newer model year with a lot less than 250,000 miles. 

[carguy79ta]

if the def  system goes bad it is 1000s of dollars to fix.  Diesel Particulate Filter cannister and the Selective Catalytic Reduction cannister can go bad.  also if you have a bad batch of def, that can be pricey to have fixed.  this is true on  Ford Chev and Ram. The good news is you can delete all that and get a little better fuel mileage to boot.  you do have to get your truck tuned.  I took my truck in for some BS recall and came out ith new either DPF or SCR. dont remember which. dont care. took it all off and is in my garage. I do run on 200hp tune and get 1mpg better than the stock tune. crazy. I have hand calcd mileage on short 150mile runs and have got over 20mpg. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by carguy79ta

[sunvalleylaw]

Just to confuse matters, if I got a Ram Eco-Diesel and beefed up the suspension, think that would work to tow a 1998 Response LX ski boat on a single axle trailer, and at the same time haul a 1600 lb camper (as loaded weight) over Galena Summit (8,700 ft.)?  @carguy79ta  

Basically, I would like to get as good a mileage as I can, for the environment and cost (diesel is not cheaper where I live), for use when not towing, and good, safe performance when towing/hauling/carrying.  

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, sunvalleylaw said:

Just to confuse matters, if I got a Ram Eco-Diesel and beefed up the suspension, think that would work to tow a 1998 Response LX ski boat on a single axle trailer, and at the same time haul a 1600 lb camper (as loaded weight) over Galena Summit (8,700 ft.)?  @carguy79ta  

Basically, I would like to get as good a mileage as I can, for the environment and cost (diesel is not cheaper where I live), for use when not towing, and good, safe performance when towing/hauling/carrying.  

To confuse matters more, how about the 6.4 gasser 2500s instead?  Mileage will be worse for sure, but (a) doesn't sound like you drive too many actual miles and (b) you don't have all of the extra cost of a diesel (fuel, def, big oil changes, etc).  The market hates the gasser 2500s so they seem to be cheaper (but also rare).  That also means you take a haircut on resale, but it seems like that's a ways down the road based on your ownership habits.

IMHO if you are gonna modify a 1500 to work, I'd go with the gasser (same reasons as above) Ram, or eco F150.  The 3.5 eco pulls like a lightly modded 7.3 from 15 years ago (translation it'd be just fine for your purposes).  And it won't drive like a 2500 the other 90% of the time.

That said your whole setup can't weigh more than a new 23LSV, which in most areas I'm sure an ecodiesel could pull fine (or at least OK).  Betcha it'd work.  I just wouldn't do it for fuel economy... while you may get to brag about your higher mpg, my bet is that cost per mile will prolly be a wash.  If set on the RAM 1500, get the gasser and the lowest geared rear end you can, fuel economy be damned.  

[RyanB]

1 hour ago, sunvalleylaw said:

Just to confuse matters, if I got a Ram Eco-Diesel and beefed up the suspension, think that would work to tow a 1998 Response LX ski boat on a single axle trailer, and at the same time haul a 1600 lb camper (as loaded weight) over Galena Summit (8,700 ft.)?  @carguy79ta  

Basically, I would like to get as good a mileage as I can, for the environment and cost (diesel is not cheaper where I live), for use when not towing, and good, safe performance when towing/hauling/carrying.  

If you are a numbers guy, the answer to your Eco Diesel question is almost certainly "no".  It would be fine with the boat, but the camper (if you are talking slide-in camper) will almost certainly be above the payload capacity of the RAM 1500.  If you are less of a a by the numbers guy, take a look at what the rear axle weight rating is on the 1500 (I don't know that number).

I see many people online that like the EcoDiesel for pulling.  One guy over at RV.net uses one to deliver airstream trailers, and has close to 400,000 miles on it.  But there is a big difference in just needing the load capacity of the tongue weight of a trailer,  vs a slide-in camper.

Going  the 150/1500 route, I would look for a Ford with the "max tow" package.  There are some with payloads above 2000 pounds.  But for a camper that weighs 1600 pounds, plus tongue weight of what, 400 pounds on the boat, plus people and the rest of your gear, you should have a CCC of 2500 plus pounds.  Which puts you back in 2500 territory.

[sunvalleylaw]

23 minutes ago, RyanB said:

If you are a numbers guy, the answer to your Eco Diesel question is almost certainly "no".  It would be fine with the boat, but the camper (if you are talking slide-in camper) will almost certainly be above the payload capacity of the RAM 1500.  If you are less of a a by the numbers guy, take a look at what the rear axle weight rating is on the 1500 (I don't know that number).

I see many people online that like the EcoDiesel for pulling.  One guy over at RV.net uses one to deliver airstream trailers, and has close to 400,000 miles on it.  But there is a big difference in just needing the load capacity of the tongue weight of a trailer,  vs a slide-in camper.

Going  the 150/1500 route, I would look for a Ford with the "max tow" package.  There are some with payloads above 2000 pounds.  But for a camper that weighs 1600 pounds, plus tongue weight of what, 400 pounds on the boat, plus people and the rest of your gear, you should have a CCC of 2500 plus pounds.  Which puts you back in 2500 territory.

Ok, and there is the rub.  @shawndoggy talks about pulling/hauling in most areas.  But when we are going to be hauling/pulling (and yes, it is a slide in camper), the one pictured below) it will be over a tall pass on a twisty road.  So I don't really want to be at or near max capacity when that happens.  I don't want soggy suspension if that elk pops out on the road when rounding a corner downhill with a big drop off just past the guardrail.    And regarding driving miles, shouldn't be huge, but will be a couple trips a year of 650-750 one way miles for family trips and stuff.  But other than that, will normally use a different car for higher miles stuff.  Except when I don't.  

Prior owner hauled the camper on that 1500 GMC you see it on.  It was ok, but he felt the suspension was at about max, and with a boat, might not be the best.  So, I guess still in that 2500/250 and up land.  And I have really pushed our gasser 1500 Suburban with the 5.3 in it, when towing over passes, etc.  I killed a 5.3 in a '97 'Burb before this one (Or at least killed a cylinder and had an expensive repair) hauling from Payette lake back over lowman pass and then Galena to sun Valley one time.  That was with our old Seaswirl outboard, which was probably near a push in terms of weight with our response.  So I am thinking when I need the extra power and torque, I need it.  5.7 is bigger, but still.  

So, I think 2500 diesel is probably the best bet.  And working out life to reduce driving it if I want to save fuel and help out the environment.  Then having what I need when it is time to pull.  

 

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by sunvalleylaw

[shawndoggy]

There's still the Ram 2500 gasser with the 6.4 tho.  Confluence of newness/price/actual use seems like it's not a terrible fit.  You aren't pulling a 20,000lb 5th wheel or anything.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/719346582/overview/

[Chrisjjbrown]

8 hours ago, Pnwrider said:

Downside is you have to buy def. 

Oh yes that’s a real killer....😂    At less than 3 bucks a gallon.   You get about 1k miles per gallon of def or more.  So let’s say you drive 20k a year on the high side.  60 bucks for the year.... Outrageous 

[carguy79ta]

when I had def I got about 1k miles out of 2.5 gal.  it does vary tho. if you got a 13+ Ram 2500, it has stock 370hp and 800 ftlbs.  more than enough to do whatever you want.  also has an exhaust brake.  Awesome. when it idles, If emissions are intact, no smoke no odor.

[sunvalleylaw]

5 minutes ago, carguy79ta said:

when I had def I got about 1k miles out of 2.5 gal.  it does vary tho. if you got a 13+ Ram 2500, it has stock 370hp and 800 ftlbs.  more than enough to do whatever you want.  also has an exhaust brake.  Awesome. when it idles, If emissions are intact, no smoke no odor.

So between the 2010 I linked and holding out for a 2013, maybe something like this, http://www.davesmith.com/used/Ram/2013-Ram-2500-d1edc2c60a0e0ae867dfbbaf03a4e4ca.htm , what do you think?  And do you have an opinion about gas vs. diesel?  You may have already stated it, but I don't remember.  Thank you for your help.  It has been very helpful.  

 

I had a line on a 2013 Longhorn from a friend, high 60's miles, well maintained.  But that fell through, as his wife gets the next upgrade.  

Edited February 21, 2018 by sunvalleylaw

[carguy79ta]

Okay the gas motor will prolly put out 400hp 400ftlbs.  the Diesel puts out 2x the ftlbs. nite and day difference when towing.  unloaded gasser will be 11 to 12 mpg unloaded diesel will be18 or more. 

 

[Cole2001]

If you aren’t driving a whole lot the gasser would be what I’d recommend. Trust me, I’ve heard so many bad stories from mechanics complaining about all these guys who own diesel trucks and don’t use them for what they’re intended to do. The engine doesn’t get warmed up and worked enough so everything clogs up... 

We have had a Chevy gasser for the last 5 years and it definitely isn’t bad what so ever. Pulled a friends 11k plus 5th wheel with ease, and doesn’t get too bad gas mileage daily driving. Pretty sure it’s about 13-14mpg. 

[RyanB]

I like the Cummins, but from your purpose and price point, I think the 6.4 in a 2500/3500 would be a great option.  Heck, the 5.7 is going to be more than adequate.  Will it tow like the Cummins?  No, but the 6.4 is far from a slouch.

[sunvalleylaw]

5 hours ago, sunvalleylaw said:

 

Prior owner hauled the camper on that 1500 GMC you see it on.  It was ok, but he felt the suspension was at about max, and with a boat, might not be the best.  So, I guess still in that 2500/250 and up land.  And I have really pushed our gasser 1500 Suburban with the 5.3 in it, when towing over passes, etc.  I killed a 5.3 in a '97 'Burb before this one (Or at least killed a cylinder and had an expensive repair) hauling from Payette lake back over lowman pass and then Galena to sun Valley one time.  That was with our old Seaswirl outboard, which was probably near a push in terms of weight with our response.  So I am thinking when I need the extra power and torque, I need it.  5.7 is bigger, but still.  

So, I think 2500 diesel is probably the best bet.  And working out life to reduce driving it if I want to save fuel and help out the environment.  Then having what I need when it is time to pull.  

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, RyanB said:

I like the Cummins, but from your purpose and price point, I think the 6.4 in a 2500/3500 would be a great option.  Heck, the 5.7 is going to be more than adequate.  Will it tow like the Cummins?  No, but the 6.4 is far from a slouch.

I killed a chev 5.3 once with just the boat, pulling over passes in Idaho.  And our newer 5.3 in the newer old suburban is just ok.  I would rather be more deep within limits.  I will consider a 6.4, but I am still leaning diesel.  Also based on the advice of my mechanic who fixed my 1997 5.3 I broke.  

[RyanB]

18 minutes ago, sunvalleylaw said:

 

I killed a chev 5.3 once with just the boat, pulling over passes in Idaho.  And our newer 5.3 in the newer old suburban is just ok.  I would rather be more deep within limits.  I will consider a 6.4, but I am still leaning diesel.  Also based on the advice of my mechanic who fixed my 1997 5.3 I broke.  

There really is no comparison between an OLD 5.3 to a current 6.4 or even 5.7.

The old 5.3 had somewhere between 285 - 310 HP and 325 - 335 lb/ft of torque.  That is closer in power of a current NA V6 than any of the V8s.

What year is the 5.3 in the newer suburban?

RAM Hemi 5.7 has 383/400 (detuned from what they put in 1500/GC/Durango/C/Charger/Challenger engine to meet the heavier duty cycle of a 2500).  And the 6.4 is 410/429.

Current RAM 2500 with the 5.7 is rated to tow up to 14,000 pounds with up to 3000 pounds of payload.

With the 6.4 you go up to 16,000 + pound towing and nearly 4,000 pounds of payload.

You aren't going to "kill" either of these engines by pulling a light pop-up camper and a little (in the grand scheme of things) boat.

If you compare either of these trucks to earlier diesels, you will be pleasantly surprised on the ratings (which actually have some science to them these days).  Both of the above mentioned trucks are rated to tow more than my 1999 2500 Cummins.  The 6.4 is rated higher than my 2003 CTD.

I tow my 23LSV with a 2011 Yukon Denali XL.  The 6.2 in that truck is similar in power rating to the 6.4 Hemi.  My Yukon easily maintains speed until I go up the Rockies.  And even then, it will run within 10 MPH of the speed limit up the steepest/highest elevation passes.  It doesn't tow like my RAM CTD, but it is no slouch.