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Stereo Upgrade Help


CaseyO

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Hoping for some advice to help me plan out my stereo upgrade.  I have learned a lot from combing through the many threads on this forum, thanks to those that have passed on knowledge and experience.

I'm looking to upgrade my 07 Sunscape LSV (w Illusion tower) with the best sound quality and volume capability, but only for those in or close to the boat.  I'm just not a fan of broadcasting music across the lake and don't need to hear it for wakeboarding or skiing.  I would like to be able to hear it while cruising, surfing, and anyone within about 20 feet of the boat while standing at the sandbar.

I'm planning to use a Fusion MS-RA70N head unit (because the wife looked on my Amazon save for later and bought it for me for Xmas) and because it has 2 zone control so I can put the in boat speakers and sub on zone 1 and the tower speakers on zone 2.  I plan to use my pioneer 10" sub and 800 W amp left over from my old truck.  I know these are not marine rated and may not last, but I'm ok with using them for now and upgrading them later.

My questions are for the tower speakers, in boat speakers and additional amps.  I've seen multiple times that the recommendation is 2 Rev 10's vs. most other options for the towers.  Is that still the case if I'm more interested in sound quality close to the boat rather than projecting 80 feet away?  Would the Rockford Fosgate PM-282's be good for close range quality?  I like the look of the stainless grill, and the fact that it will keep my kids' fingers out of the speaker.

For the 4 in boat speakers I noticed that the Wet Sounds Revo's have higher RMS watt ratings 100 vs. 85 for 6.5", does this make a big difference?  Should I go through the hassle of trying to up size to 8" speakers in the boat?

Last question, what amp or multiple amps would be needed for the tower and in boat speakers?

 

Thanks for any help!

 

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2 hours ago, CaseyO said:

and volume capability

Just understand, this, leads to this\/

2 hours ago, CaseyO said:

I'm just not a fan of broadcasting music across the lake

You cant have loud volume for close in, and it not travel across the lake. 

I would consider 2 pair of icon-8 or a single pair of Rev-10. 

2 hours ago, CaseyO said:

Would the Rockford Fosgate PM-282's be good for close range quality?

Sure. Most any 8" coax will, when sufficiently powered. Just note, it would take 2 pair to compare to a pair of larger 10" speakers in regards to the volume you seek.

2 hours ago, CaseyO said:

I noticed that the Wet Sounds Revo's have higher RMS watt ratings 100 vs. 85 for 6.5

Not sure I understand what speakers you are comparing here. The Revo comes in an 8" with an RMS of 150W and the Revo-6 has an RMS of 100W. With that said, I would not get wrapped up in a difference of 15W rms between two same size speakers. Even further, I would not worry much about RMS ratings for quality marine in-boat speaker. 3 pair supplied solid wattage from a quality amp, and the speakers rms rating wont really play into it.

2 hours ago, CaseyO said:

Should I go through the hassle of trying to up size to 8" speakers in the boat?

Stepping up to a larger speaker is almost always an advantage in both output (volume) and mid-bass depth. Yes, I would consider an 8" in-boat where you can. 

2 hours ago, CaseyO said:

Last question, what amp or multiple amps would be needed for the tower and in boat speakers?

Likely looking at a 3 amp setup, with one amp already in hand; sub, tower and in-boat. However, make the speaker selections first, then its much easier to choose to the amps that best fit the setup.  

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Thanks MLA for the thorough response.  I'm with you on almost everything, but I may need some more education on the volume and sound being projected at a distance. 

I get your point that more volume will travel farther across the lake (especially on a calm day), but I also thought that the HLCD technology in the Rev speakers was meant for projecting 80 feet away.  I've seen some comments that a drawback is that close in sound quality and tone suffers.  I'm not opposed to spending the money on the Rev10's, but if their big advantage (projecting) is something I don't want, and their disadvantage (close range quality) is something I do, then maybe they aren't made for me. 

I guess maybe the simplest way to put it is: what is the best speaker for sound quality while surfing or while standing 5-10 feet behind the boat at the sandbar?

I really like the idea of stepping up to the 8 inch in boat speakers, especially since my boat only has 4 speakers currently.  I may have to get creative to make them fit (both diameter and depth), and eventually add another pair.

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What is your budget for the upgrade and are you doing a self install?  Building a sub box?

On my 2014 23lsv it came with 2 pair of the RF 282 tower speakers and although they could be loud they lacked mid bass . They work well as interior boat speakers, but sounded kinda flat on the tower. we used to see a fair amount of TMC members pull out these speakers and and list them in the classifieds section. 

In your situation I'd take a look at the folowing

exile Javelin amp (think they still have factory demo's avail to save some $$) but it's a 5 channel amp that will run 3or4 pairs of in boats speakers and throw 800w at 2ohm to your sub

exile xm30 amp : this will power 1 or 2 pair of the surf towers sxtq9's the surf 9's are not HLCD like XM9's I've had both and prefer the warmer mid bass from the surfs over the crisp projection of the HLCD. 

With the Wetsounds vs Exile debate, chevy /Ford etc it just comes down to preference/ cost in one way or another. If you can get out and listen to some options. 

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Thanks Stevo.  My budget is around $2,000, but I am willing to break that if it makes sense, or to build part of the system now and add on later.  I will be doing the install, and I have already built a solid sub box (but may redo it since it was built to fit under a seat in my truck).  Thanks for the heads up on the 282's in the tower, I would hate to put in the time and money and be disappointed in the end. 

I hadn't been looking at the exile stuff, the surf 9's sound like they may be exactly what I am looking for.  How would you say the Surf 9's compare to the Rev10's?  What about inboat speakers?  How do the exile SX80M's compare to the WS Revo8's?

I would love to get out and hear what I'm trying to choose between, but I am in Minneapolis and don't know of any places to do that.  I'd like to plan this out soon so I can get all the work done by spring.

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surf 9s are more comparable to the icons than the rev10s (both in design and output).  The Rev10s really are the big dogs on the block.  I've had two pair of Rev10s, one pair of Rev10s, and now two pair of icons.  The two pair icons are about as loud as a single pair of rev10s in the boat, but they don't play as low as the rev10s did (and nothing else currently on the market will either).  SQ is really not much different.  If I had it to do over again, I'd probably go back to a single pair of Rev10s.  You don't have to be "that guy" that you hear across the lake, but you can be if you want to.

One thing to keep in mind with the sub... in a vehicle, you get the benefit of cabin gain.  In a boat, you don't.  A single well powered 10 in a truck is perfect for personal listening, and a single 12 can feel like overkill.  In a boat, you really need all the help you can get in the bass department, and a single 10 in a sealed box (which I assume this is if it fit under your truck's seat) is going to be "just OK."  If it's not your first rodeo and you are comfortable building a box, I'd strongly recommend going ported on your 10 if you can get it done in 2.25 cubic feet or less gross.  A bigger box could fit but it starts getting trickier and trickier (i.e. exponentially more time consuming) to make it happen.  Your ears will thank you with the greater potential output (and as with the tower speakers, you can always turn it down).

If you can make 8" cabin speakers fit, your ears will thank you there too.  I wouldn't rule out the kicker marine stuff too, in addition to the exiles and ws that you are considering.

  • Like 2
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Thanks Shawndoggy, I really appreciate everyone's willingness to help.  So, I've eliminated one option (Rockford Fosgate) but added 2 (Exile and Kicker), this was supposed to get easier:biggrin:

I'm with you on the sub, my current box is tiny, closer to 1 cubic foot (I think, need to go out and measure), and is ported.  I will likely build a new one that is slightly bigger (but stay under 2 ft^3), so that I can eventually upgrade to a 12, but plan to keep it ported.

You said that the 2 pair of icon's don't play as low as the 1 pair of rev10's, and that you don't have to be "that guy" if you don't want to.  Does that mean that with the Rev10's I can have pretty good volume and mid bass sound quality at 10 feet behind the boat, and not automatically be blowing out the sound to people that are 50-100 feet away?

I'm zeroing in on either: 2 Rev10's and 4 Revo8's, or 2 surf9's and 4 SX80M's

 

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You should be able to get 2 pair of exile surf 9s for about the same price as one pair of rev 10s (when comparing the packages both offer that come with an amp). Those are pretty much what I’ve narrowed my tower speaker purchase down to. 

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@CaseyO

 

Do you hunt? Think of an HLCD as a .223 rifle round and a coaxial dome tweeter as a shotgun with duck load. Both will have no issue covering some distance, but the difference is in their accuracy at a curtain distance. Rifle round stays true to its aim over a greater distance, where as the shotgun pellets fan out the further they travel. So, an HLCD delivers more focused music at 80ft to a rider in tow as compared to a coaxial, but both can and will be heard across the lake. The only way to control that, is with the volume dial. 

3 hours ago, CaseyO said:

I've seen some comments that a drawback is that close in sound quality and tone suffers.

This is why I prefer the 10" HLCD Rev-10 for a surf/party cove setup over an 8" HLCD like the Rev-8 or xm9. The added surface are of the 10" delivers more mid-bass and deeper mid-bass to better balance with the compression driver. I understand what shawn is saying in opening sentence above, but for a surf/party cove setup, 2 pair of 8" coaxial is absolutely a fair comparison to to a single pair of Rev-10 that needs to be considered. There are gives and takes of each.  

No way you want to compare a single pair of 8" coaxial (wet sounds icon-8 or exile surf9) to a single pair of 10" HLCD rev-10. 

 

3 hours ago, CaseyO said:

I'm not opposed to spending the money on the Rev10's, but if their big advantage (projecting) is something I don't want

Look at it this way, a single pair of Rev-10 and amp is likely going to come in less expensive then 2 pair of 8" coaxial and amp. I think the above statement will clarify the projection question. Loud on the sun pad means loud across the lake, whether its from coaxials or HLCDs. The larger 10" HLCD has the sound quality advantage or an 8" HLCD

3 hours ago, CaseyO said:

guess maybe the simplest way to put it is: what is the best speaker for sound quality while surfing or while standing 5-10 feet behind the boat at the sandbar?

Here is where you need to get a side by side demo, so you can hear for yourself. Round here, we see about an 8-1 Rev-10 to icon-8 (or other 8" coax) ratio for surfing/party-cove. Once people hear the Rev-10, its usually over, done!. 

 

2 hours ago, CaseyO said:

hadn't been looking at the exile stuff, the surf 9's sound like they may be exactly what I am looking for.  How would you say the Surf 9's compare to the Rev10's?

The Surf9 is an 8" coaxial like the Wet Sounds Icon-8. The comparison of an 8" coaxial to the 10" HLCD has been covered pretty good here so far. One noticeable difference worth tossing out though. Although the surf9 and xm9 are an 8" speaker like the Wet Sounds Icon-8 and Rev-8 and 2" smaller speaker driver then the 10" Rev-10, the Rev-10's hang height is roughly only an inch more. The surf9 and xm9 have a very wide but shallow pod for an 8" speaker. They hang very low. 

 

2 hours ago, CaseyO said:

How do the exile SX80M's compare to the WS Revo8's?

8 grill options to choose from with the Revo series

RGB LEDs included with the Revo series

On the Revo series; The speaker leads and LED leads are pigtails with sealed pass throughs from the motor. They include a 2 way male and female weather sealed connector assembly for the speaker leads and similar 4 way for the LEDs. No longer use the traditional crimp-on female spade terminals that push over a flat spade terminal. 

Revo series uses a ribber spider over a cotton based cloth spider

Revo series uses a 12dB 2nd order cross over for better mid to high transition. 

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Thanks MLA. I don’t hunt but I am an engineer, so I get the physics behind what you are saying.  The scales are tipping towards the Rev10s, but with 4 revo8s and the amps needed to power it all I don’t think my wife is going to be happy about the budget.

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The Rev-410 is a mono pod, so its not ideal to run by itself. You would want to run a pair of Rev-410 or flanked by a pair of Rev-10, which is the Rev 3-Some. At this point, you would need to be comparing these setup to 2 pair of Rev-10. 

Cost wise, all three tower setups run about the same price. The amp option for each can make a difference. 

A pair of Rev-410 can be a tough fit for some towers, or no go at all, this is where the 3-Some come into play, or even 2 pair of rev-10.

A pair of Rev-410 is top shelf in terms of sound quality and mid-bass, yet still has wake range projection thanks to the two large compression drivers. Two pair of Rev-10 will have the greatest peak output of the 3, but still delivers excellent sound quality near field for an HLCD.  

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OK, so I made up my mind and bought 2 Rev 10's, and 4 revo6's.  I was going to go with 8 inch in boats but I didn't have space in the plastic housing by the cup holders.  I didn't want to mess around with custom making an adapter, or cutting up the boat, and I figure with a sub I should be good.  Last two questions. First, what amp set up should I go with?  I already have the amp for the sub, should I go with 2 Syn 4's, or is there 1 amp (6 channel?) that can power the towers and in boats.  I read a pretty negative review on the Syn 6 though.  Last question: with my fusion MS-RA70N head unit with 2 zone control and 3 amps with output controls, will I need an equalizer?

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I would not worry about any Syn-6 reviews, as that amp has been retired for a couple seasons now, replaced with the Syn-DX6

For a single pair of Rev-10, the Syn-DX4 is hard to beat at 400W rms x 2. 

For 3 pair of 6.5" in-boats, another Syn-DX4 is perfect at 100W rms for each speaker. 

If you want a greater range of tone control, yes, you would need an equalizer. For zone control, no. The RA-70 has a zone 1 and zone 2 full range outputs and sub woofer output. This output is linked to zone 1, so use zone one for your in-boat amp. If you want independent woofer volume, check to see if your woofer amp accepts a level control knob, or install simple pre-amp line level control knob. With that said, the RA-70 does have a sub level adjustment menu. Its not as user friendly as a true zone volume control as its not really what they intended it to be used as.  

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  • 1 month later...

So I'm looking to pull the trigger on buying the amps for my setup.  I hear the recommendation that 2 Syn-Dx4's would nicely power my system, but I'm stuck on the $599 each.  I'm wondering if the Wet Sounds HTX4 at $449 each (on amazon or crutchfield) would do the trick as well.  Is this just an older version, or lower quality components?  I see they are slightly lower power 300 RMS x 2 for the Rev10's, but not sure if that will make a big difference, especially since I don't care to wake the lake.  Any help would be appreciated.

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Don't feel like you have to go with Wetsounds. There are other quality "automotive" amps out there.  If you're on fresh water they're just fine. Alpine, Rockford Fosgate, etc. Just look for the power you want and CAE specs.

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SYN dx4 has more juice ,

125x4 @4 ohm

200x4 @2 ohm

400x2 @4 ohm

HTX

110x4 @4ohm 

150x4 @2ohm

300x2 @4 ohm

for the extra $300 is go with SD.  But I’m sure if you called around you could get a better price on the SD. Paid membership here gets you 10% off or more at earmark audio

 

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The rest of the system was described above, but below are the basics.  I need amps for the in boats and towers.

Fusion RA-70N head unit

10" Pioneer Sub and Amp (from my old truck)

4 revo6 for in the boat

2 Rev10 on the tower

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Thanks MLA, but I must be missing something. I read the HTX4 can power the Rev10s with 300 rms x 2 available at 4 ohms, but on the SynDX6 channels 5&6 can only put out 150 rms x 2 at 4 ohms. Wouldn’t that only be half the power I need for the Rev10s?

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  • 1 month later...

I've depleted my budget so still haven't pulled the trigger on buying the amps.  What do people think about Rockville amps?  With the RXM-F4, I can get plenty of power as listed below (1 amp running to 4 Revo6, 1 amp to 2 Rev10's) and these are only $119 each.  Anyone have experience with these?  How is the sound quality?

CEA Compliant Power Ratings:

400 Watts (4 x 100 Watts) at 4 ohms and 1% THD+N

2 x 300 Watts bridged @ 4 Ohms < 1% THD

RMS Power Ratings

1200 Watts (2 x 600 Watts RMS) @ 4 ohm Bridged

800 Watts (4 x 200 Watts RMS) @ 4 ohms

Edited by CaseyO
added the model number
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On 2/3/2018 at 9:38 PM, CaseyO said:

Thanks MLA, but I must be missing something. I read the HTX4 can power the Rev10s with 300 rms x 2 available at 4 ohms, but on the SynDX6 channels 5&6 can only put out 150 rms x 2 at 4 ohms. Wouldn’t that only be half the power I need for the Rev10s?

My Syn-DX6 suggestion followed your post regarding 2 pair of revo-6 and a single pair of Rev-10. chnls 1/2 and 3/4 bridged for each rev-10 is 400W rms x 2, same as a single DX4 but 100W more each then the HTX-4. This leaves chnls 5 & 6 to drive the 4 in-boats at about 150W rms to each. Thats more wattage then both the HTX-4 and Syn-DX4. 

57 minutes ago, CaseyO said:

I've depleted my budget so still haven't pulled the trigger on buying the amps.  What do people think about Rockville amps?  I can get plenty of power as listed below (1 amp running to 4 Revo6, 1 amp to 2 Rev10's) and these are only $119 each.  Anyone have experience with these?  How is the sound quality?

CEA Compliant Power Ratings:

400 Watts (4 x 100 Watts) at 4 ohms and 1% THD+N

2 x 300 Watts bridged @ 4 Ohms < 1% THD

RMS Power Ratings

1200 Watts (2 x 600 Watts RMS) @ 4 ohm Bridged

800 Watts (4 x 200 Watts RMS) @ 4 ohms

Boss and Pyle come to mind. Im skeptical of an advertisement that claims their RMS is 2 times what the CEA rms is. Fishy all the way around. Their amps are still using class-A/B power supplies.  

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Thanks, another option came up from the classifieds.  There is a Syn-DX4DSP for sale that came out of a 2018 Malibu.  Can I buy or make an adaptor harness to use this in my '07 LSV?  Or could I take the cover off the amp and convert it to standard RCA fitting and speaker wire fittings?

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Does anyone know what connectors I would have to buy, to use a Wet Sound Syn-DX4DSP amp that came out of a 2018 boat?  I am trying to use it on a 2007 LSV that doesn't have the harness built into the boat.  How hard would it be to build a jumper harness to connect the RCA inputs and then the speaker wire outputs?  Picture attached

Syn-dx4-dsp.JPG

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