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2018 A24 engine option


awhillia

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I am going to purchase a new A24. 

At first i was concerned with base motor knowing that the 24mxz comes standard with the 450. I’m pretty close with the dealer and he explained to me that indmar specifies torque (450) and Pcm in the axis specifies HP rating of 409 and it produces more than 450 ft lbs of torque 

he began to explain that the Indmar 410 in malibu actually makes less horse power than the 409 in the axis  

did I understand him correctly? Am I making a mistake not ordering the 450 in the A24?

We usually run a large crew of half adults and half kids heavily weighted for surf and moderate weighted for wakeboarding. 

Im having a hard time justifying the cost of the 450 if all it’s gonna do is give me bragging rights at the dock. On the other hand I don’t want to be under powered. $5k is a lot for 40hp in my mind. 

Would appreciate some others opinions. 

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pro wakeboarder we go out with had a 2017 A24 with the 575 and his 2018 with the 450 and pw2 puts out 1 a bigger wake and gets on plane easier. I would think unless you are running crazy amounts of weight the 409 with pw2 and lift mode will be just fine. but if you get the auto set wedge you will want the 450 or bigger....if u plan on running auto set wedge down

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1 hour ago, awhillia said:

I am going to purchase a new A24. 

At first i was concerned with base motor knowing that the 24mxz comes standard with the 450. I’m pretty close with the dealer and he explained to me that indmar specifies torque (450) and Pcm in the axis specifies HP rating of 409 and it produces more than 450 ft lbs of torque 

he began to explain that the Indmar 410 in malibu actually makes less horse power than the 409 in the axis  

did I understand him correctly? Am I making a mistake not ordering the 450 in the A24?

We usually run a large crew of half adults and half kids heavily weighted for surf and moderate weighted for wakeboarding. 

Im having a hard time justifying the cost of the 450 if all it’s gonna do is give me bragging rights at the dock. On the other hand I don’t want to be under powered. $5k is a lot for 40hp in my mind. 

Would appreciate some others opinions. 

Where do you boat? With how you describe it I think the standard engine will be ok with the right prop. But if you are at elevation, there is no question to go up to the 450 imo. 

One thing to keep in mind as well is if you go with a high torque prop, you will loose cruising speed. Not a big deal for most but if you are running 20-40 minutes to your riding spot it can be a factor. 

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The boat I’m looking at has the torque prop. We generally don’t cruise much and the ride to our spot is about 15 mins cruising 25 mph or so. I’m at about 400-700’ elevation so not high 

The boat also has pw2 which is a must have for me. 

Thanks for the responses

open to all feedback both good and bad. 

My last boat was a supreme 238 and was a mistake for our family. I don’t want to do that again. 

My 14 T22 had the base 335 motor and was underpowered at times loaded out with ballast and people. But at the same time my supreme had the 343hp with 1.72 gear reduction and was really impressive how much weight and crew it could handle. Unfortunately the wakeboard wake left much to be desired for slower riding beginner kids. 

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With a 2018 model you are getting a 17" prop along with the 2:1 trans gear reduction plus the power wedge 2.  Those factors alone are like getting an engine upgrade.  My dealer is ordering all there A24's with base 409 engine.  As others mentioned unless you are at a high altitude or running massive amounts of weight I would bet the 409 will work just fine.  Properly weighting your boat will also play a factor, keeping bow to stern weight ratio in check and using the pw2 correctly will make a significant difference.

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I have the 409 in my 24ft boat (800ft elevation) and have never felt under powered and run 5k in ballast. That is a great engine. With right prop you will not need the 450 IMO. Tough to get that $5k back at resale too

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  • 4 weeks later...

Ive run a 450 in the upper stratosphere of elevation 4000-6000 and would agree (with or without 2-1) to steer anyone towards a 450 where I boat. I’m not sure on the fuel economy at your altitude but the PCM 450 2-1 is noticeably better than my 2015 Indmar 450(GM) monsoon without 2-1 and inspite of the tank difference. If you are surfing with a lot of weight/people fuel economy might be be a consideration. Just sharing thoughts from the stratos. Alpen

Edited by alpensurf23
Day after editing
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Sales people don't always have the facts with respect to power and torque.  The info on the CARB website is a great place to get apples to apples comparisons on the power being produced by each engine brand.  Why?  ALL the engines are run on the EXACT same test fuel and these are the certified numbers as submitted by each engine company to the EPA and CARB even if they advertise otherwise.

PCM 409: 363hp @5500rpm and 341 ft-lb torque

PCM 450: [email protected] and 351 ft-lb or torque

Indmar Raptor 400, aka monsoon 410: 350hp @5400rpm and 404 ft-lb 

Indmar Raptor 440, aka monsoon 450: 398hp @5500 rpm and 427ft-lb

The PCM 450 only makes 11 more HP and 10 ft-lb more torque than the PCM 409 and both are less than the Raptor 440.  

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On 2/4/2018 at 9:29 AM, KJKimball said:

Sales people don't always have the facts with respect to power and torque.  The info on the CARB website is a great place to get apples to apples comparisons on the power being produced by each engine brand.  Why?  ALL the engines are run on the EXACT same test fuel and these are the certified numbers as submitted by each engine company to the EPA and CARB even if they advertise otherwise.

PCM 409: 363hp @5500rpm and 341 ft-lb torque

PCM 450: [email protected] and 351 ft-lb or torque

Indmar Raptor 400, aka monsoon 410: 350hp @5400rpm and 404 ft-lb 

Indmar Raptor 440, aka monsoon 450: 398hp @5500 rpm and 427ft-lb

The PCM 450 only makes 11 more HP and 10 ft-lb more torque than the PCM 409 and both are less than the Raptor 440.  

I wish they stated fuel consumption while achieving these numbers. My understanding is that the larger motor works less to achieve. Any proof of that? My past 450 schooled my buddy's 350 in fuel economy.

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@KJKimball, if you work for Raptor or have some kind of interest in them, say so! Anytime anyone mentions the Raptor engine on these forums you jump in and quote these numbers without information that is actually useful. No one runs these boat at WOT for more than a couple seconds and this is not where we NEED the power, your numbers are all at 5400-5600rpm. Why don't you post numbers where we use them the most, which is between 3000-4000rpm? That is where heavily ballasted boats need the torque for surfing, wakeboarding may be a bit higher but still no where near the rpm's you are quoting. I realize that torque is different depending on the transmission used in each boat, so what is the above info based on? Perhaps this is just a "published number", but when coupled with 1:1.23 trans, the ZR409 is supposed to make 409HP with 492ftlbs of torque @ 5600rpm. Think this engine has been around since 2010 and very few issues that I have heard of. I have had 260 trouble fee hours for the last 3 summers (bought spring of 2015) out of my personal 2014 ZR409 engine with the 1:1.48 trans. Its a smooth, snappy engine with plenty of power on my 24ft boat that pushes 12k lbs of boat/ballast/people at 800ft elevation running 11mph @ 3400rpm using a Nauticurl suck gate.

Not saying the Raptor is not a great engine, I am sure it is...you hear good and bad things about everything based on consumer feedback, some you cannot believe but when something comes up multiple times from different sources....I am more apt to believe real life feedback over published numbers since we are the people using these engines on a daily basis and some of the feedback posted above is "real life", which makes it hard to dispute...I am OCD about my toys and why I spend time on multiple tow boat forums and love the diverse knowledge and information which I will also use to my advantage when I upgrade my boat next time. We know that Raptor has some issues to iron out, like the carbon build-up that I am sure you read about in another thread here on TMC, did you read that and perhaps know what they are doing to fix the issues so a guy like me can consider buying a Raptor in my next boat?

From what you said on WW, you are an engineer. Are you an engineer for Raptor engines? I also appreciate your knowledge and information, would just like it to be useful so we can all benefit from the information and not just marketing info that does not apply to how we use our boats every day.

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2 hours ago, Infinitysurf said:

@KJKimball, if you work for Raptor or have some kind of interest in them, say so! Anytime anyone mentions the Raptor engine on these forums you jump in and quote these numbers without information that is actually useful. No one runs these boat at WOT for more than a couple seconds and this is not where we NEED the power, your numbers are all at 5400-5600rpm. Why don't you post numbers where we use them the most, which is between 3000-4000rpm? That is where heavily ballasted boats need the torque for surfing, wakeboarding may be a bit higher but still no where near the rpm's you are quoting. I realize that torque is different depending on the transmission used in each boat, so what is the above info based on? Perhaps this is just a "published number", but when coupled with 1:1.23 trans, the ZR409 is supposed to make 409HP with 492ftlbs of torque @ 5600rpm. Think this engine has been around since 2010 and very few issues that I have heard of. I have had 260 trouble fee hours for the last 3 summers (bought spring of 2015) out of my personal 2014 ZR409 engine with the 1:1.48 trans. Its a smooth, snappy engine with plenty of power on my 24ft boat that pushes 12k lbs of boat/ballast/people at 800ft elevation running 11mph @ 3400rpm using a Nauticurl suck gate.

From what you said on WW, you are an engineer. Are you an engineer for Raptor engines? I also appreciate your knowledge and information, would just like it to be useful so we can all benefit from the information and not just marketing info that does not apply to how we use our boats every day.

What in the world does this even mean? CARB is the California Air Resources Board. CARB has no dog in the fight of getting a motor to make more or less power.  Have you never seen a horsepower rating number?  Do you not know that it's common to describe the number in terms of the highest number produced over the rev range and then to also note the RPMs at which said HP peak was achieved?

The transmission that you are running the engine through has nothing to do with the torque the motor makes at the crank. 

You complain about @KJKimball's numbers (which can be verified on the CARB website) and then post a fanciful number I've never ever seen before with no citation.

The PCM six liter GM motors (ZR409 and ZR450) are good motors, but are certainly not mindblowingly powerful (have one).  

To say that few people run their boats at WOT is definitely wrong too.  Lots of people do when sacked for surfing.

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@KJKimball Explain why the 450 Raptor is insanely louder than the PCM 450 with or without the surf pipe. Does that correlate with being the " more performance motor"? The Raptor is obnoxiously loud and far from more efficient fuel wise my experience. Like trucks all manufactures rate their performance differently some achieve their numbers and at the same time roach their motors for the cause.

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Of course the transmission makes no difference to the torque at the crank and I am just barely capable of realizing that some published numbers are the torque at the crank and some at the prop after it goes thru trans. I specified the 1:1.23 and the "fanciful" number came from an online ad for the ZR409 which I realize is not the gospel, I said "supposed to make". I think I was pretty clear that I was not saying it was the best or the most powerful engine, just posted my personal experience on my boat, feedback from a couple friends who also have this engine, and a lot of real life reviews on the forums (maybe they are all liars, I don't know). I have also heard good/bad things on the Raptor, I have ridden/surfed/demoed multiple boats with the 400/440 engine and none "felt" as powerful/snappy, tho some of that could have been the trans in that specific boat, my butt dyno may not be exact and if I offended you then I beg your forgiveness. I can tell you for SURE that those Raptor engines were MUCH louder. Some of that could also be fit/finish of boat....so many variables. Excuse me for wanting to KNOW what I am buying if my next boat happens to end up with a Raptor in it

I am a lowly nobody and know little compared to someone like yourself, so my experience is limited but I have never been on a tow boat where the rpm was anywhere near WOT when sacked out surfing (doesn't mean it doesn't happen of course...I realize now that I have to be crystal clear on what i say so no-one gets offended), highest I have seen personally is 4000rpm @ 11mph and would hate to pay the gas bill on a boat that runs higher than that surfing all day (wakeboarding I could see running higher when sacked, I am too old for that sport now tho, due to high likelyhood of injuries). I also don't know anyone personally who runs their motor at WOT for more than a minute or 2, tho I am sure there are people who do, that don't expect to get much life out of it, don't care, or don't read the manual where it says not to run boat over 4000rpm for extended periods of time. Maybe that was something I dreamed about reading too tho and its not really true?

I don't think I asked too much by asking for information related to how most people I know use their boat, which is between 3000-4000rpm. Perhaps this info is not available or too hard to come by cause its irrelevant to anyone but me.

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