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23LSV, 25LSV vs. G23 (or G25)


Monkeybutt

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The last thread related to that topic went for way too long off track (sales numbers etc.) - so I start another one as I'm contemplating ...

Had my first Malibu last year (2017 23LSV) - before buying this one I was looking at MB Sports as well but the wakeboard wake (clean at low speed) etc. was swinging me over to Malibu.  After a lot of riding for us here in MN (172 hours) - sold the boat mid September.  Interested parties were always asking me why I would sell it and my main complaint were 2 things:  First stock ballast is good for wakeboarding but there ain't no surfing w/o PNP ... not that the 600 bucks for the bags mattered - what did matter was that the storage is essentially gone.  That was in itself not that bad but what really got to me was the bow rise when you had the bags full and the wedge 2 - 3 clicks down (or up whatever).  So bow bag comes in and it takes now that space away and the filling/emptying and just the time it takes to fill/empty the PNP bags got annoying and I bet I'm not the only one out there who feels this way.  Last but not least - I felt that I should have gone for a bigger boat ... but last year my boat lift wasn't up for that yet (it is now).

So here's the 2018 season coming up (at least in my mind as we have snow on the ground) and I have a spec'd out 23LSV (again), a spec'd out 25LSV ...  However another concern is the draft of the 25LSV - 32 inches.  When the water level is low on our lake - clearing the channel between the 2 basins gets dicey.  I have damaged a rudder on a previous boat (that one was expensive) and with the 23LSV I hit the bottom once so a spare prop is always part of the ordeal.  Having a boat with 5 more inches of draft is for those reasons a concern.

So would the 25LSV solve the issue with bow rise?  Yes documented/talked about here plenty of times.  Space wise - preference is on the 25 ...

With all that said - I was once checking again Centurion (yes they don't hold their value) and finally looked up Nautique.  To my surprise - the G23 has a draft of only 24"!!!  Centurion Ri237/257 are clocking in at 36" - so that's a non brainer - not going to move to another lake :(

So I've been told that the G23 will clean up around 19mph w/o any ballast ... to be confirmed.  I wakeboard at 21.5 and some go up to 23mph - so I'm not really worried that it won't be clean at that speed and I don't need much ballast (with the 23LSV I rode with 25% filled plus wedge and the wake was plenty for me).  So I looked at a few 2017 Gs (leftovers as well as used/demo) and finally made it to the Nautique dealer this weekend as I never been in a G23 (not even at the boat show because I never thought I could afford one nor that it would work on my lake because I wrongly assumed that the draft would be prohibitive).  One thing I have to say is that the finish of the G is really nice.  The upholstery is a lot beefier than the Malibu (I have 4 dogs) and the overall finish is otherwise comparable if not better.  Looking at where they put the seadek vs. Malibu throwing in the miners moss is sticking out.  Storage wise the G is probably as good as the LSV - the compartments aren't as deep but not putting in additional bags in the lockers and the storage in the bow will offset the depth of the 23.  So after looking at the 2018 and the price (yes sticker shock of sorts) there was a 2017 G25 in the show room with 120 hours - with the supercharged engine.  I'm also looking at a G23 down in Atlanta - same color scheme - bit more hours but not supercharged.

Money does matter - so I'm not saying that I spend an unlimited amount on a boat.  If I would go for another season with a 23LSV - I would likely end up selling it again as the bow rise may have improved but I doubt that there are miracles or unicorns for that matter so it's non-issue.  If I go with the 25LSV - this problem will be mute.  Draft will remain an issue.

What's the crew's take?

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I am surprised that you think those rear lockers are as big on a 23 LSV as they are in a G23.   Is that what you mean?  The opening hatch is definitely much bigger and I have always thought they were a lot deeper.  Certainly a lot more usable with PNP in the way.  Some guys add weight to the G boats for surfing, and I thought I might do the same, but the wave is plenty for me without.  

I find the slow speed wake question to always be fascinating.  If a person is really ready to try going wake to wake and hitting the opposite wake, then they are ready to go 20 MPH, which cleans up nicely on an unweighted G. IMHO.  Weight one side a little and let them work on that if they still need to go 17.  Then hit the transfer button to put the ballast to the other side and let them work toe side or switch a little bit.  

I am surprised that the G only has 24 inches of draft.  The prop is 17 inches in diameter, plus an inch of clearance, which means the bottom of hull to water line is only 6 inches?  Do they measure draft to the bottom of the prop?  Is it an industry standard way of measuring?  I know the bottom of my G does not pop out of the water in 6 inch chop.  

The 450 motor is fine up to 4000 feet in a G23.  

I cannot speak to whether or not the 25 LSV would fix the problems with the 23 you had, and I probably should not get carried away with the pros/cons of a G boat if 23 vs. 25 is more your primary question.  Feel free to get the other side of the story on Planet Nautique.  

Which dealer is better?  Which dealer is better if you go out of territory and bring a boat home?  

 

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I wasn't comparing the actual size - I was comparing the fact that once you have the PNP in the 23LSV - the lockers are full.  You can call me petty but in my old boats the rule was - dry stuff in the right locker - wet stuff in the left.  So all my towels were right there where the rider was when getting out of the water.  Now you have to get the towels from inside the boat - possibly someone has to get up.  Same with cooler - having the cooler under the seat is annoying because you have to get up to get to it.  Loved that detail in the G ...

well - the definition of draft is an interesting one - don't know what Malibu is measuring - I just assumed it would be to the lowest point of the boat (prop, rudder, whatever).  Google is not my friend today - as the definition seems to be pointing to vessels (where the prop and rudder equal the lowest point of the keel) but that's obviously not the same as for an inboard ... and that wouldn't answer what Malibu is considering draft either ...

Anybody to confirm draft of a G23?

Been on that forum ... but haven't searched for actual draft.

Don't care about dealers - if it truly breaks - you bring it in.  If you can fix it do it yourself and get the parts reimbursed if you can

Edited by Monkeybutt
missed topic
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With such a flat/wide bottom on the G, the draft is less than most other big wakeboats these days, but I highly doubt it’s only 24”. I’d guess more like 28-30....

One thing I do want to mention...... dont think that “beefier” feeling vinyl is more durable. It’s not. Nautique uses a stiffer foam than Malibu does (just a preference thing I think), but the vinyl is definitely not better, or more durable. I had vinyl durability issues on both my 16, and 17 G. 

Lots of strong qualities in the G boats, and for your list of “wants” it would work very well. 25lsv would as well. But definitely don’t buy the G for the vinyl durability..... 

  • Like 2
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38278186894_9be67c558d_b.jpg

Sure Watson is a pro, but I have yet to meet a G owner who doesn't add extra bags.  If your going to add weight, and lose storage, might as well have PNP.  And I still refuse to get on my hands and knees for a drink from the cooler

Edited by wakebrdr94
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1 hour ago, wakebrdr94 said:

38278186894_9be67c558d_b.jpg

Sure Watson is a pro, but I have yet to meet a G owner who doesn't add extra bags.  If your going to add weight, and lose storage, might as well have PNP.  And I still refuse to get on my hands and knees for a drink from the cooler

Nice to meet you.... My neighbor would also be happy to meet you....

I added weight to my 16..... skipped it entirely on my 17.

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6 hours ago, wakebrdr94 said:

38278186894_9be67c558d_b.jpg

Sure Watson is a pro, but I have yet to meet a G owner who doesn't add extra bags.  If your going to add weight, and lose storage, might as well have PNP.  And I still refuse to get on my hands and knees for a drink from the cooler

46% of the guys on Planet Nautique add no ballast, and another 14%  add less than 500 pounds.  Just like here, there is some pretty significant selection bias on a forum like this, which makes me think it is quite a bit less in the real world.  

https://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/forum/nautique-topics/general-nautique-discussion/499803-do-you-add-extra-ballast-to-surf-your-g23

That is an awesome picture of Watson's boat!  

 

4 hours ago, Cole2001 said:

Yes the G23 has a draft of 24” and just in comparison the 230 is 30”. 

Here’s a picture I stole from the internet of a G23 with the bow and Center ballast full.

 p418jvr.jpg

There is no stock bow ballast, just a belly and rear ballast.  The belly ballast is in front of the driver under the floor.   My guess is that it is with just the front ballast full, and more non-stock ballast to the front.   I've never seen the rear of my boat sticking up like that, although the unloaded boat has the platform several inches out of the water, it isn't nearly that high.  

Might be a challenge for an old guy to climb in!  

Edited by TallRedRider
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31 minutes ago, TallRedRider said:

There is no stock bow ballast, just a center and rear ballast.  My guess is that  is with just the center ballast full, and non-stock ballast to the front.   

Assuming you meant there is no center ballast??

The front ballast bag in a G is in the bow portion of the boat. It is directly under the bow floor, and runs from about the windshield to the front of the bow seats. 

  • Like 1
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27 minutes ago, Cole2001 said:

The guy who posted said 300 each port/starboard fronts and 200 mid. So 800 forward...

I don’t get it, why was he running with only front and mid ballast?? And none of the stock ballast?

you can tell that boat is only loaded in the front by how high the back is, but why?? Even completely empty, the back sits much deeper than that. When loaded with stock ballast and 5-6 people in the boat, the platform is just touching the water on a G23

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I assure u at the local Sandbar we go to a lot has a few g23s all of Wich are able to park in far more shallow waters while mid summer I'm left tedering on the edge of the Sandbar needing an extra 1ft depth than they do.. thus why we are contemplating a pontoon.. but u can get a 25lsv + toon for the price of a G.. and I'm in a 2016 25 which will have a few inches less draft than the 17s however if I read correctly both 16s/17s say same depth draft which would be impossible with new 17" props and shaft angle 

25lsv still best bang for buck .. but It kills me to say your gonna be far better with draft on a g if your concerned.. the g guys kept asking why I'm in the edge of the Sandbar they didn't believe I was on bottom until they felt under the boat with feet and we're shocked

Depends on your surfing style if you want a longer pocket the 25 is for you a G23 is going to be a shorter steeper  closer to the boat ride.. I as well was also curious on the G25 I cannot find much information they seem to be about as rare as an ri257.. the only thing the local dealer told me and from what I've seen online is they do take quite a bit more to get weighted down 

Edited by The Hulk
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18 minutes ago, TenTwentyOne said:

I don’t get it, why was he running with only front and mid ballast?? And none of the stock ballast?

you can tell that boat is only loaded in the front by how high the back is, but why?? Even completely empty, the back sits much deeper than that. When loaded with stock ballast and 5-6 people in the boat, the platform is just touching the water on a G23

 

I don't believe he runs like that. Most likely just to take the picture or to have more draft clearance. 

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Just my thoughts.

Your 2017 23LSV didn't really meet your expectations.  I don't think the 2018 will either.

So that would leave you with the 25 or one of the Nautiques.  And you say that budget is a concern, but also seem willing to trade/sell after only one year of use.  Not judging here, but the amount you lose in depreciation could be used to just get the boat that really meets your needs and not have/want to upgrade in a year or two.

For the record, I am happy with the way my LSV surfs with only 400 pound bags in each of the lockers.  And I can still fit about 10 life jackets in one side.  But that doesn't solve the bow rise issue.

I do agree with you on the poor cooler location.  We just put a 75 Yeti in the middle of the boat.  Not too terrible to walk around, and can be used as another seat, and is sturdy enough to stand on.  We do all of this with 4 big dogs, and a group of at least 6 two-leggers.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

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4 hours ago, Cole2001 said:

Yes the G23 has a draft of 24” and just in comparison the 230 is 30”. 

Here’s a picture I stole from the internet of a G23 with the bow and Center ballast full.

 p418jvr.jpg

I went out to the garage because I was curious.  From the top of my surf pipe to the bottom tip of the prop is 27 inches, as best I can measure.  Without any ballast, I think I am usually with the top of the surf pipe about 5 inches under water.  I think that real world unballasted G23 is going to be about 32 inches under the surface to the tip of he prop.   

I never thought of filling up the front ballast and letting the rear rise to get me through any shallow areas.  If it's that close, I ain't going there.  If I lived there, I would think differently, but not around here.  My guess would be this boat is about 25 inches to the tip of the prop as shown.  

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With a decent size crew, I’d say tallreds assessment is about dead on.

just based on how far off the water my platform was and using tallreds measurement, I’d say 29-30” with just driver and observer. 31-32” with 8ish people, and 34-35” with full ballast and a medium crew.

With Hulks comment about 25LSV+pontoon= G price, I am curious about what kind of pricing the 25LSV runs..... I would have guessed that a fully loaded example would have been 130-140k these days....

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2 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

With a decent size crew, I’d say tallreds assessment is about dead on.

just based on how far off the water my platform was and using tallreds measurement, I’d say 29-30” with just driver and observer. 31-32” with 8ish people, and 34-35” with full ballast and a medium crew.

With Hulks comment about 25LSV+pontoon= G price, I am curious about what kind of pricing the 25LSV runs..... I would have guessed that a fully loaded example would have been 130-140k these days....

The base MSRP difference between 23 and 25 LSV is $17,306, which includes the 450. Plus a little extra for the triple axle.

  • Like 1
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16 hours ago, Stevo said:

 

I know a few G owners who don’t use PNP, and those waves are solid.

my wife loves the floor cooler so much she has all but insisted we have one in the next boat. As far as the getting down on her knees to get there... well that’s all good on any boat in my book.

Super good wave in a 14’ with 2800 and just driver and observer ,(spent 100 or more hours in that boat in one year) sure it was a tsunami when we loaded the boat with people , but that very stock wave taught me to how to surf and use the whole wave because it was fun from Foam ball to lip to tail with a very consistent lip , regular , goofy all it took was a ramp adjustment , transfers are INSANE with super fast full wave formation from the NSS, we even changed the ramp for each side in transfers cause then it was easy to do along with the transfer button in the console all right next to each other, did well with a list , but even when folks sat where they wanted it was good regardless but yes better with people listing, just not necessary , if stock no people and string wind in the face, just move front foot forward a little, problem solved 

miss that wave , buddy sold it and didn’t replace 

i will admit that due to some reason other than transfers  I still liked , I did not enjoy as much the wave from the new hull design on either 2017 G’s at surfest in April , we had people, stock and some lead and it was not as good as my buddies 14 with no people and nothing extra (though still pretty good for no sacs only some extra lead)

i did not find the G25 wave to reflect the extra two feet of weight and size, I would say it was slightly inefficient in regards to its extra size , though I nailed multiple multiple transfers in this boat in a row in a 15 minute sess

love the no bow rise, insulated the cooler and never look back or put a monster soft side down in there, 

boat drives like a sports car , that boat taught me how to drive my boat , some good instruction from my buddy , but also the way it handled gave me s great feel for inboard operation, basically just drive the darn thing, it will respond 

Edited by granddaddy55
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31 minutes ago, granddaddy55 said:

boat drives like a sports car , that boat taught me how to drive my boat , some good instruction from my buddy , but also the way it handled gave me s great feel for inboard operation, basically just drive the darn thing, it will respond 

thanks for input - among other factors that the power wedge is really making a turn during a wakeboard set more difficult - and not to forget the pull on the steering wheel when surfing regular ...

Well - I guess I'm done after one season with Malibu - received the quotes yesterday and that was the end of that story ... 23LSV would be around 110K before taxes and the 25LSV (despite saying that the 450 would be enough - dealer still came back and put the 575 on ...) came in at 130K.  Deducting the 575 - it would be 121K before taxes ... well for that money I can get a G.

So with that said - appreciate all the input over the course of this season - admit it's one of the best forums and learned a ton ... but it's time to move on to another brand :notworthy:

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and sorry - I did go over to the Nautique forum and found the thread referenced above ... and did ask the measuring question there.  It's interesting to hear the 25LSV experience compared to the G ... but it shows it better than anything else.  As said - would have never thought when looking at the G for 5 years now ...

And 2nd apology I missed a bunch of comments and never replied - yes I wasn't happy with the 23LSV and know that I would have bridged another season with one to eventually make up the money for the 25LSV.  I wasn't my intent to flip boats every year - I got an incredible deal last year and knew that may not happen again ... so to upgrade from a 23 to a 25 it would cost me about 38K after taxes with the pricing I got.  So for 38K I will get the boat I want and going to keep it ... and hopefully don't bang my prop every other week ...

No I won't go and negotiate with any of the dealers - that will be a repeat of the current experience with the local dealer ...

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