Dumb Slalom Question but I'm going to ask anyway.

[JohnDoe]

The reason they never mention speeds in the tournament results is because until you reach you max speed for your age bracket (read: complete a full pass at that speed), you can't shorten the rope (or at least, it doesn't count toward your total ball count). The fact that they are skiing at their max speed is basically inferred.

I'm pretty sure that's not entirely true. For example, if I go off the dock at 15-off at 30mph and, whether or not I make my pass, decide to shorten up and come back at 22-off at 30mph and make that pass I actually get credit for the "skipped" pass of 15-off at 34mph.

Can anyone correct or verify that?

Mike

No, you don't get credit for that. Different divisions have different speeds for the "first" pass. For example, lets say the highest in a division is 34, with a starting speed of 24 for example purposes. IF you run a full line at 24 you get 6 buoys. If you run 15 off at 24, you get 6 buoys, of you run 41 off at 24, you get 6 buoys. If you run 26 mph, and have a full lien you get 12 buoys, 15 off same speed is 12 buoys. You can run any line length you want, but you have to run it at full speed before you can get credit for chopping the rope. So, in my example above, if you ran long line at 34, you would have 36 buoys. If you then chopped the rope to 15 off, and ran it as your opening pass you would have 42 buoys. Each division has their own "slowest" speed and "terminal" speed.

In your example mike, if the 22 off pass was at 30 mph, you would get the same buoys count as if you were at 15 off. But, if you were at 34 and ran 22, you would get credit for the 15 off pass.

[skisix@38]

I'm pretty sure that's not entirely true. For example, if I go off the dock at 15-off at 30mph and, whether or not I make my pass, decide to shorten up and come back at 22-off at 30mph and make that pass I actually get credit for the "skipped" pass of 15-off at 34mph.

Can anyone correct or verify that?

Mike

If you don't make your first pass( = all 6 buoys) you only get credit for the number of buoys you made at a speed of 25KPH(about 15mph). If you go out at 15off/30mph and you make that pass you get credit for all passes below that inlcuding the longline 30mph pass. If, at the successful completion of your 15off/30mph pass you decide to "opt up" you can only opt for one pass which would take you to 15 off/34mph. If you successully complete that pass you get credit for 12 more buoys( the 6 you just ran and the 6 for the 32mph pass).

Savvy?

[skisix@38]

The reason they never mention speeds in the tournament results is because until you reach you max speed for your age bracket (read: complete a full pass at that speed), you can't shorten the rope (or at least, it doesn't count toward your total ball count). The fact that they are skiing at their max speed is basically inferred.

I'm pretty sure that's not entirely true. For example, if I go off the dock at 15-off at 30mph and, whether or not I make my pass, decide to shorten up and come back at 22-off at 30mph and make that pass I actually get credit for the "skipped" pass of 15-off at 34mph.

Can anyone correct or verify that?

Mike

No, you don't get credit for that. Different divisions have different speeds for the "first" pass. For example, lets say the highest in a division is 34, with a starting speed of 24 for example purposes. IF you run a full line at 24 you get 6 buoys. If you run 15 off at 24, you get 6 buoys, of you run 41 off at 24, you get 6 buoys. If you run 26 mph, and have a full lien you get 12 buoys, 15 off same speed is 12 buoys. You can run any line length you want, but you have to run it at full speed before you can get credit for chopping the rope. So, in my example above, if you ran long line at 34, you would have 36 buoys. If you then chopped the rope to 15 off, and ran it as your opening pass you would have 42 buoys. Each division has their own "slowest" speed and "terminal" speed.

In your example mike, if the 22 off pass was at 30 mph, you would get the same buoys count as if you were at 15 off. But, if you were at 34 and ran 22, you would get credit for the 15 off pass.

It used to be like that JohnDoe, now it's "zero based scoring" All our scores start from 25KPH and there are no minimum starting speeds, except at Regional and National Championships- they figure you got there and should be good enough to start at the max speed for your division.

[mlange]

Ok, since I have to deal with this tomorrow let me make sure I have this.

I know I can make both my 15-off and 22-off pass at 30mph, but I've never tried either at 32 or 34mph, so if my goal is simply to get the highest score I should thoeretically go off the dock at 22-off @ 30mph in order to get the balls for all of my skipped 15-off passes.

Correct?

Mike

[skisix@38]

Ok, since I have to deal with this tomorrow let me make sure I have this.

I know I can make both my 15-off and 22-off pass at 30mph, but I've never tried either at 32 or 34mph, so if my goal is simply to get the highest score I should thoeretically go off the dock at 22-off @ 30mph in order to get the balls for all of my skipped 15-off passes.

Correct?

Mike

No! in your case you would get scored for 30mph/longline and all the passes below that- in scoring's eyes there is no difference between 15 off and 22 off until you reach the divisions max speed. If you want the most buoys stay at 15 off and keep going up in speed and take what you get.

[mlange]

Ugh. Can't say I agree with it, but at least I understand it now. Seems screwy that someone could theoretically go out and clear their 41-off pass, but only get scored for 6 balls unless they were at 34 (or whatever their max speed is)

I frankly don't care about my score anyway. I just want to get some time in the course at a great site.

Thanks for the clarification!

Mike

[JohnDoe]

skisix, I think we're saying the same thing aren't we?

m, the logic is that the max speed can be more difficult to run than a shortened rope and slower boat.

[Killer]

skisix, I think we're saying the same thing aren't we?

m, the logic is that the max speed can be more difficult to run than a shortened rope and slower boat.

true. 36 is fast for a lot of people and injuries are more likely. I usually ski 33mph when on pp. 34 on the speedo otherwise. I don't ski in tournaments due to this rule - they should dock points for slower speed IMO - getting more amatures out to tourny's and not forcing them to ski at 36.

so the rule should be for amatures: you loose 6 balls for every 2mph you drop. so if you can ski the course at 34mph 5@32off it would be the same score as 36mph 5@28off, etc...

Obviously I'm not on with my calculations, but 6 balls is fair to start and I'm sure someone could judge a proper rule. At least guys and girls who ski slower at home can come out and not ski 1 pass then watch the rest of the day because they can only get around a few balls on the long line at 36mph - anyone ever tried to ski the course longline ???? throw's your timing way off if you're used to skiing at 15or22off.

just a thought

Edited September 1, 2006 by H20ski Dude

[skisix@38]

skisix, I think we're saying the same thing aren't we?

m, the logic is that the max speed can be more difficult to run than a shortened rope and slower boat.

true. 36 is fast for a lot of people and injuries are more likely. I usually ski 33mph when on pp. 34 on the speedo otherwise. I don't ski in tournaments due to this rule - they should dock points for slower speed IMO - getting more amatures out to tourny's and not forcing them to ski at 36.

so the rule should be for amatures: you loose 6 balls for every 2mph you drop. so if you can ski the course at 34mph 5@32off it would be the same score as 36mph 5@28off, etc...

Obviously I'm not on with my calculations, but 6 balls is fair to start and I'm sure someone could judge a proper rule. At least guys and girls who ski slower at home can come out and not ski 1 pass then watch the rest of the day because they can only get around a few balls on the long line at 36mph - anyone ever tried to ski the course longline ???? throw's your timing way off if you're used to skiing at 15or22off.

just a thought

I'm not sure what you are saying. I know a lot of skiers that enter tournaments that don't ever get to thier max speed, they seem to have fun! A skier would get scored less to run at 34 mph than 36 mph.

[Chef23]

Recalling from....err....1992....

As mentioned, one bouy is from center wake around the bouy and back to center wake.

1/4 bouy is falling outside the bouy line.

1/2 bouy is falling before the wake. (but in control around bouy)

1 bouy is back inside the wake (centerline course)

3.5 @ 38 off is 38 feet off a 75' line, and making it around bouy #3 but falling before getting back to the wake. (Or falling at the wake)

Peter

Actually isn't 3.5 getting around the 4 ball but falling before getting back to the wake. Getting around bouy 3 and then falling would be 2.5.

[Killer]

skisix, I think we're saying the same thing aren't we?

m, the logic is that the max speed can be more difficult to run than a shortened rope and slower boat.

true. 36 is fast for a lot of people and injuries are more likely. I usually ski 33mph when on pp. 34 on the speedo otherwise. I don't ski in tournaments due to this rule - they should dock points for slower speed IMO - getting more amatures out to tourny's and not forcing them to ski at 36.

so the rule should be for amatures: you loose 6 balls for every 2mph you drop. so if you can ski the course at 34mph 5@32off it would be the same score as 36mph 5@28off, etc...

Obviously I'm not on with my calculations, but 6 balls is fair to start and I'm sure someone could judge a proper rule. At least guys and girls who ski slower at home can come out and not ski 1 pass then watch the rest of the day because they can only get around a few balls on the long line at 36mph - anyone ever tried to ski the course longline ???? throw's your timing way off if you're used to skiing at 15or22off.

just a thought

I'm not sure what you are saying. I know a lot of skiers that enter tournaments that don't ever get to thier max speed, they seem to have fun! A skier would get scored less to run at 34 mph than 36 mph.

In tournaments here if you're mens 1 you have to ski at 36 then shorten the rope. not the other way around. If you can't ski at 36 you're not going to ski very far in the tournament at my age level. They way the tourny works is you progressively up the mph of the boat to a max of 36 -THEN shorten the rope. you can't choose to start skiing at 28off @ 32 or 34mph because you haven't compelted 1 pass at any line length at 36.

maybe we can clarify intl rules.

[TJP]

You're all over it, skisix! The natural progression of course skiing is speeding the boat up (2mph per pass) until you have reached your class-designated limit, then you stay at that speed and begin shortening the rope. I think the basic idea with it all is that things progressively get more difficult. If you can't make a long-line pass through the course at 34mph (or whatever you max speed is), stop bumping yourself up to 22 or 28 off and work on faster long-line passes.

[skisix@38]

In tournaments here if you're mens 1 you have to ski at 36 then shorten the rope. not the other way around. If you can't ski at 36 you're not going to ski very far in the tournament at my age level. They way the tourny works is you progressively up the mph of the boat to a max of 36 -THEN shorten the rope. you can't choose to start skiing at 28off @ 32 or 34mph because you haven't compelted 1 pass at any line length at 36.

maybe we can clarify intl rules.

The rules are that you can start where ever you want- in tourney's there and tourneys here- YOU DECIDE where to start and the boat pulls you. From there, once you complete a pass the boat will make it harder on your next pass- that may mean speeding up to whatever the division max speed is or, it may mean that you shorten if already skiing the division max. If you are under the age of 36, you don't have to start at 36mph to enter a tourney. If you start at 30mph and 15off and you are 20yrs old, once you successfully complete that pass the boat will speed you up to 32mph, then 34mph and then 36mph. If you get through those passes, they will then shorten the rope up to 22 off.

[mlange]

You're all over it, skisix! The natural progression of course skiing is speeding the boat up (2mph per pass) until you have reached your class-designated limit, then you stay at that speed and begin shortening the rope. I think the basic idea with it all is that things progressively get more difficult. If you can't make a long-line pass through the course at 34mph (or whatever you max speed is), stop bumping yourself up to 22 or 28 off and work on faster long-line passes.

That's all fine and dandy for people that get to ski the course regularly. But I only get into the course a few times a year and I free ski at 32 mph. Given how different a 2mph bump can be, that I am not interested in free skiing at 34 mph all the time, and that I'm just looking to have fun when I enter a tourney and use it as a chance to get into the course, I don't think it's a big deal that I chop the rope rather than increase the speed.

I really couldn't care less about how many buoys I "officially" score, but if I can shorten up the rope and get around a few more balls every time out I know I'm improving and I'll be a happy camper.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Mike

[JohnDoe]

Your opinion can never be wrong. Fun does matter, especially to get more people involved in tournaments.

[Killer]

In tournaments here if you're mens 1 you have to ski at 36 then shorten the rope. not the other way around. If you can't ski at 36 you're not going to ski very far in the tournament at my age level. They way the tourny works is you progressively up the mph of the boat to a max of 36 -THEN shorten the rope. you can't choose to start skiing at 28off @ 32 or 34mph because you haven't compelted 1 pass at any line length at 36.

maybe we can clarify intl rules.

The rules are that you can start where ever you want- in tourney's there and tourneys here- YOU DECIDE where to start and the boat pulls you. From there, once you complete a pass the boat will make it harder on your next pass- that may mean speeding up to whatever the division max speed is or, it may mean that you shorten if already skiing the division max. If you are under the age of 36, you don't have to start at 36mph to enter a tourney. If you start at 30mph and 15off and you are 20yrs old, once you successfully complete that pass the boat will speed you up to 32mph, then 34mph and then 36mph. If you get through those passes, they will then shorten the rope up to 22 off.

that's what I mean. lets say my pb is 5@35off @34mph. I don't ski at 36 so even if I started at 28off 32mph-I would never get past 28off because I don't ski at 36 (assuming i made that pass I would then have to ski 32off at 36mph).

What I'm proposing is that you ski at whatever speed you like, but for every 2mph you get docked balls. so we could both be at the same line length of say 38off, but I ski at 34 you ski at 36. we both get 4 balls, but you win by 6 balls unless I get [email protected] - 34mph, etc... that's what I mean.

there has to be a way to make it fair to some more rec skiers to get them out to tourney's. There will be no tourney's if we continue the way we are right now IMO. 3event and slalom even is dead in canada on a comp level.

[Chef23]

In tournaments here if you're mens 1 you have to ski at 36 then shorten the rope. not the other way around. If you can't ski at 36 you're not going to ski very far in the tournament at my age level. They way the tourny works is you progressively up the mph of the boat to a max of 36 -THEN shorten the rope. you can't choose to start skiing at 28off @ 32 or 34mph because you haven't compelted 1 pass at any line length at 36.

maybe we can clarify intl rules.

The rules are that you can start where ever you want- in tourney's there and tourneys here- YOU DECIDE where to start and the boat pulls you. From there, once you complete a pass the boat will make it harder on your next pass- that may mean speeding up to whatever the division max speed is or, it may mean that you shorten if already skiing the division max. If you are under the age of 36, you don't have to start at 36mph to enter a tourney. If you start at 30mph and 15off and you are 20yrs old, once you successfully complete that pass the boat will speed you up to 32mph, then 34mph and then 36mph. If you get through those passes, they will then shorten the rope up to 22 off.

that's what I mean. lets say my pb is 5@35off @34mph. I don't ski at 36 so even if I started at 28off 32mph-I would never get past 28off because I don't ski at 36 (assuming i made that pass I would then have to ski 32off at 36mph).

What I'm proposing is that you ski at whatever speed you like, but for every 2mph you get docked balls. so we could both be at the same line length of say 38off, but I ski at 34 you ski at 36. we both get 4 balls, but you win by 6 balls unless I get [email protected] - 34mph, etc... that's what I mean.

there has to be a way to make it fair to some more rec skiers to get them out to tourney's. There will be no tourney's if we continue the way we are right now IMO. 3event and slalom even is dead in canada on a comp level.

I think the INT tournaments give tha ability to do this. I believe they also have a 30 mph division where you run down to the shortest line length you can at that speed.

Taking 6 balls away isn't really a fair metric for going slower. There is a big difference skiing 34 mph to 36mph. I appreciate your issue and but I don't think you can have two skiers ski a competition and award a victory to someone at 34 mph. JMO and I am a 34mph skier now.

[Killer]

In tournaments here if you're mens 1 you have to ski at 36 then shorten the rope. not the other way around. If you can't ski at 36 you're not going to ski very far in the tournament at my age level. They way the tourny works is you progressively up the mph of the boat to a max of 36 -THEN shorten the rope. you can't choose to start skiing at 28off @ 32 or 34mph because you haven't compelted 1 pass at any line length at 36.

maybe we can clarify intl rules.

The rules are that you can start where ever you want- in tourney's there and tourneys here- YOU DECIDE where to start and the boat pulls you. From there, once you complete a pass the boat will make it harder on your next pass- that may mean speeding up to whatever the division max speed is or, it may mean that you shorten if already skiing the division max. If you are under the age of 36, you don't have to start at 36mph to enter a tourney. If you start at 30mph and 15off and you are 20yrs old, once you successfully complete that pass the boat will speed you up to 32mph, then 34mph and then 36mph. If you get through those passes, they will then shorten the rope up to 22 off.

that's what I mean. lets say my pb is 5@35off @34mph. I don't ski at 36 so even if I started at 28off 32mph-I would never get past 28off because I don't ski at 36 (assuming i made that pass I would then have to ski 32off at 36mph).

What I'm proposing is that you ski at whatever speed you like, but for every 2mph you get docked balls. so we could both be at the same line length of say 38off, but I ski at 34 you ski at 36. we both get 4 balls, but you win by 6 balls unless I get [email protected] - 34mph, etc... that's what I mean.

there has to be a way to make it fair to some more rec skiers to get them out to tourney's. There will be no tourney's if we continue the way we are right now IMO. 3event and slalom even is dead in canada on a comp level.

I think the INT tournaments give tha ability to do this. I believe they also have a 30 mph division where you run down to the shortest line length you can at that speed.

Taking 6 balls away isn't really a fair metric for going slower. There is a big difference skiing 34 mph to 36mph. I appreciate your issue and but I don't think you can have two skiers ski a competition and award a victory to someone at 34 mph. JMO and I am a 34mph skier now.

You're probably right. & the INT league is a great thing, something we don't have in Canada but probably should. Just thinking of ways to get people out skiing in tourny's again.

I like the idea of a big spray comp and head to head. Both are cool ways to gain some more respect from the younger generation.

A lot of non-skiers often ask me when they find out I ski: "how big is your spray?" - they have no idea what skiing a course is, or waht 4@32off is. Having something like this at a wakeboard comp could also be a good way to showcase the sport. & whatever happened to hotdoggin? why not start hotdoggin again! or freestyle jump ? get a guy to do a whirlybird off the jump ramp on a single jump ski would hype a crowd big time. I'm not gonna nominate myself though!!!

[BlastRlxi]

I think it would also help if there were more courses available for beginners to try out and train on. Many state park and private lakes don't have them or allow them. There are clubs out there, but not always within resonable driving distance where you could train on a routine basis.

I see your point on the hotdogging idea. Wasn't that somewhat the idea behind ski flying?