Ordering a 2018 23 LSV - Help me choose my options

[SCMike]

5 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Mike what do you mean by "not being able to get on plane?"  Are you asking whether your unloaded boat with your wife and kids will be able to cruise around the lake at 25-30 mph while you eat sandwiches on the table with fenders flopping and tunes cranking from the Rev8s?  OF COURSE IT WILL.  No problem.  If you are asking whether you can wakeboard with full factory ballast and wedge, or surf with full pnp and wedge, the answer is going to be no... at least not without propping the heck out of it (you may want that 2773 after all, at least for when you are at "The Lake" (as we refer to it around here).

You should call my dealer (Ulitmate Marine) here in Reno and ask one of the sales folks about how a 410 (or 450) will perform loaded down at the lake.  They demo boats up there frequently for potential buyers.  

Having had a boat that I really liked except for the fact that it ran out of steam at altitude, this is the kind of thing that will chew at you every time you have to drain weight to get to surf speed.  Or it would me.  

Yes, I’m talking about being able to wakeboard and surf on the lake.  If I’m running more throttle then at sea level I’m totally fine with that, but I I can’t even get up to wakeboard or wakesurf speed, that’s an issue.  My 21vlx with 410 and high altitude prop was able to get to surf and wakeboard speed in Tahoe with full mls, but no plug in play.  I’m thinking the 23lsv would be ok with the 450.  

Have you taken you current boat to Tahoe or similar altitude?  You have the same drive train as I’m considering.  Would love your real world feedback.

 

[Cole2001]

I really don’t believe the SC motor is necessary either.     Think of it this way, when and why do you ever need to take these boats much over 30mph? Ya.... you don’t. 

So why not just put a very very low torque prop on it and be good? Am I missing something here? 

[SCMike]

9 minutes ago, Cole2001 said:

I really don’t believe the SC motor is necessary either.     Think of it this way, when and why do you ever need to take these boats much over 30mph? Ya.... you don’t. 

So why not just put a very very low torque prop on it and be good? Am I missing something here? 

I’m with you 100% on this.  If I need to buy diffent prop for Tahoe, then so be it.  Much cheaper then buying the SC motor for the 1-2 weeks a year I’m in Tahoe.

[IXFE]

11 minutes ago, Cole2001 said:

I really don’t believe the SC motor is necessary either.     Think of it this way, when and why do you ever need to take these boats much over 30mph? Ya.... you don’t. 

So why not just put a very very low torque prop on it and be good? Am I missing something here? 

Yes, you are most definitely missing something. But I’m tired or typing on my phone. 

SCMike, I sure hope your logic (which seems very flawed to me) is right. It would suck to spend $120k only to be disappointed the first time you load her up and can’t get past 10.2 mph. You comment about not wanting to run a bow sack also made me chuckle. You have a lot to learn. Good luck, my friend. 

[Pnwrider]

Especially since you admitted your vlx couldn’t plane if you ran pnp. But sure, a much bigger and heavier boat, with even more ballast, won’t be an issue since you’ll have the same motor as your vlx, but with a “tune”. 

[IXFE]

Ding ding ding ding ^^^^

23 LSV is what?  1,500 lbs more than 21 VLX??

Should be no problem. 

[SCMike]

19 minutes ago, Pnwrider said:

Especially since you admitted your vlx couldn’t plane if you ran pnp. But sure, a much bigger and heavier boat, with even more ballast, won’t be an issue since you’ll have the same motor as your vlx, but with a “tune”. 

I never said I could not get on plane with PNP, I never tried.  I had enough people in rhto boat where I didn’t add PNP. 

[SCMike]

12 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Ding ding ding ding ^^^^

23 LSV is what?  1,500 lbs more than 21 VLX??

Should be no problem. 

Is 1000 lb difference between the two.  Figured the longer running surface and 450 would would get the job done, but sounds like everyone here thinks otherwise.  Can’t believe nobody has any real world experience they can chime in with?? Calling all high altitude boaters!  Anyone running a 410 or 450 in elevations near 6000 feet?  Would love to hear your feedback.  

Sorry guys, I’m not trying to be stubborn here.  The reality it, I’m not getting the SC motor even if I wanted to.  It’s a matter of budget.  Im sure most on this site understand that.  If none of us had to worry about budget 99% of the crew would have 575.  If I have to run without ballast in Tahoe, then I guess I’ll have to. 

[SCMike]

31 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Yes, you are most definitely missing something. But I’m tired or typing on my phone. 

SCMike, I sure hope your logic (which seems very flawed to me) is right. It would suck to spend $120k only to be disappointed the first time you load her up and can’t get past 10.2 mph. You comment about not wanting to run a bow sack also made me chuckle. You have a lot to learn. Good luck, my friend. 

Thanks @IXFE, I truly do appreciate the advice and feedback and really really hope for my sake you are wrong on this.  

I will add that my tahoe trips are 75% cruising the lake and swimming, and 25% riding.  My VLX struggled, but I was able to surf and wakeboard with full MLS.  I’m ok with having to drain ballast if that’s what it takes. The wake will still be bigger then my 21vlx. 

Would i love the 575? Sure, but I have to work within my budget and I’m buying for more then just tahoe. 

I’ve also said before, I will likely add 200# Of lead to the bow, but I won’t be adding a box back.  I’m totally over that after only one season with my 21vlx.  Ic bow rise is too much with 200# of lead and PNP, then I live with less PNP.  

Lastly, im demoing the 450 in the 23lsv this weekend, not at elevation, but at my home Lake.  I’m going to load the s*** out of it (well beyond what I’ll run) just to see what it can take.

 

[hethj7]

I know elevation makes a difference, but don't discount the prop angle.  I think at times the issue is that folks still have all the weight in the back and none up front, whether ballast or passengers.   You run heavy wedge like that and the prop is essentially pointing to the sky, so of course it will be difficult to go forward much faster.   I'm sure everyone can relate the change in engine sound and RPM's just when playing with the wedge.  At elevation, it may be even more important to watch the angle of attack on the prop.     

Also, you may try the Facebook page for Malibu Owners and see about the 575 at elevation - I like that group for general questions, but it is a bit "facebookish", if you know what I mean.   

[SCMike]

12 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

I know elevation makes a difference, but don't discount the prop angle.  I think at times the issue is that folks still have all the weight in the back and none up front, whether ballast or passengers.   You run heavy wedge like that and the prop is essentially pointing to the sky, so of course it will be difficult to go forward much faster.   I'm sure everyone can relate the change in engine sound and RPM's just when playing with the wedge.  At elevation, it may be even more important to watch the angle of attack on the prop.     

Also, you may try the Facebook page for Malibu Owners and see about the 575 at elevation - I like that group for general questions, but it is a bit "facebookish", if you know what I mean.   

Thanks @hethj7, I’ll have to check it out if I can remember how to login to Facebook, haha! 

Agree on the prop angle point. 

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, hethj7 said:

I know elevation makes a difference, but don't discount the prop angle.  I think at times the issue is that folks still have all the weight in the back and none up front, whether ballast or passengers.   You run heavy wedge like that and the prop is essentially pointing to the sky, so of course it will be difficult to go forward much faster.   I'm sure everyone can relate the change in engine sound and RPM's just when playing with the wedge.  At elevation, it may be even more important to watch the angle of attack on the prop.     

Also, you may try the Facebook page for Malibu Owners and see about the 575 at elevation - I like that group for general questions, but it is a bit "facebookish", if you know what I mean.   

Totally spot on.  

[Stevo]

Not sure this has been covered and slightly off topic, but with the adding lead in the bow... has anyone been able to stuff more than 2 bags (100lbs ) in the bow under the cussions?

i picked up 250lbs anticipating putting it between the hull and the subfloor bow tank, to my surprise the newer tank (could be limited the the 25lsv) 2016+ are contoured to the shape of the hull leaving little to no unused space in the subfloor.

me and 2 other TMC members fiddled with it for about 45 min before I conceded the fact that we weren’t getting more than 2 bags up there.

so chances are that lead you are looking at will be sitting on top of the vinyl or stuffed in the flip up bow cushions.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Stevo

[Stevo]

On 11/29/2017 at 7:40 AM, Stevo said:

with that being said, my 2014 23 with 350 did fine at Donner lake (same altitude as Tahoe) the few times we go per year. Granted I jumped to the 2419 from 2315 after my first trip . And I can’t run as heavy in the rear up there.  

For the record I commented on the altitude performance 

I’d opt for the 450 if you are dropping the SC Motor, but I’d probably keep a tourque prop as my “backup/Tahoe” prop.

i will also echo the prop angle concern especially if you go with the WakeBench, the physics just don’t lie. Full PNP with a crew stacked in the back will make it difficult for even the 450 to push past 10 surfing. 

 

[SCMike]

51 minutes ago, Stevo said:

Not sure this has been covered and slightly off topic, but with the adding lead in the bow... has anyone been able to stuff more than 2 bags (100lbs ) in the bow under the cussions?

i picked up 250lbs anticipating putting it between the hull and the subfloor bow tank, to my surprise the newer tank (could be limited the the 25lsv) 2016+ are contoured to the shape of the hull leaving little to no unused space in the subfloor.

me and 2 other TMC members fiddled with it for about 45 min before I conceded the fact that we weren’t getting more than 2 bags up there.

so chances are that lead you are looking at will be sitting on top of the vinyl or stuffed in the flip up bow cushions.

Yeah, I’m not sure about this either.  Guess we will have to wait for there to chime in.  @ConnollyCrew or @Wakesetter67 may know. 

[IXFE]

On 12/3/2017 at 8:17 PM, SCMike said:

Is 1000 lb difference between the two.  Figured the longer running surface and 450 would would get the job done, but sounds like everyone here thinks otherwise.  Can’t believe nobody has any real world experience they can chime in with?? Calling all high altitude boaters!  Anyone running a 410 or 450 in elevations near 6000 feet?  Would love to hear your feedback.  

Sorry guys, I’m not trying to be stubborn here.  The reality it, I’m not getting the SC motor even if I wanted to.  It’s a matter of budget.  Im sure most on this site understand that.  If none of us had to worry about budget 99% of the crew would have 575.  If I have to run without ballast in Tahoe, then I guess I’ll have to. 

I don’t believe  it's only 1,000 lbs. difference.  Malibu publicly stated during launch that the new 23 weighs 5300 lbs. (only 350 lbs less than the 25).  Now the website suddenly says 5000. Hmmm... Yes, the 21 VLX  is listed at 4000 lbs.  I'd bet anybody the 21 actually weighs < 4,000 lbs.  it’s 6” shorter and 2” narrower than the old 21 VLX which was listed at 3700ish. Also, the 23 LSV holds 19 gallons more fuel which adds another 125 lbs.

As far as calling all high altitude boaters, you've already heard from the king of Tahoe boating @shawndoggy and he recommended 575 on page 1 and again today.  Go back and look at the novel I posted and pay attention to who liked it.  It's pretty much the who's who of TMC.  There's probably 100 years of Malibu experience represented on that list.  As for budget, I tried to show you the path and got you damn close.  Now go talk to your dealer and negotiate out the rest.  

The concern I have is that you’re guessing and using poor logic to do it (ie thinking stock + PnP is a mild load on a boat when it’s in fact the hardest load there is).  

For a guy who's super concerned about budget, do yourself a favor and at least look at my list again (even if you stick with the 450).  Nobody who's overly concerned about budget buys factory tower speakers, soft touch flooring, or phender pro.  If you don't scrub your list it only proves what I suspect is true about you and most others who post looking for "advice."  You're not really looking for advice... you've got 6 pages of it from people who know more than your dealer or even the factory, and you've ignored almost all of it.  What' you're really looking for is affirmation.  

Last piece of advice then I’ll leave you alone... here's why I don't like the GL bimini; it doesn’t slide back towards the tower when it’s stowed away, which looks silly and potentially puts a lot of stress on that hinge.  Keep in mind that on a G3.5 tower it will stick forward even further than the pic below

Edited December 5, 2017 by IXFE

[shawndoggy]

For the record, we don't boat on Tahoe.  Too rough, too cold, too big of a pita with inspections, and yeah, too high.  

[Wakesetter67]

8 hours ago, SCMike said:

Yeah, I’m not sure about this either.  Guess we will have to wait for there to chime in.  @ConnollyCrew or @Wakesetter67 may know. 

I Have not really had the chance to mess around with it, But at a glance the cushions sit on top of fiberglass, not like my 22. and then you have the space for the battery's, So I dont think you could stuff any in between or at least not real conveniently, I'm sure @ConnollyCrew did though! 

[CharlieBeaU]

20 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

Mike what do you mean by "not being able to get on plane?"  Are you asking whether your unloaded boat with your wife and kids will be able to cruise around the lake at 25-30 mph while you eat sandwiches on the table with fenders flopping and tunes cranking from the Rev8s?  OF COURSE IT WILL.  No problem.  If you are asking whether you can wakeboard with full factory ballast and wedge, or surf with full pnp and wedge, the answer is going to be no... at least not without propping the heck out of it (you may want that 2773 after all, at least for when you are at "The Lake" (as we refer to it around here).

You should call my dealer (Ulitmate Marine) here in Reno and ask one of the sales folks about how a 410 (or 450) will perform loaded down at the lake.  They demo boats up there frequently for potential buyers.  

Having had a boat that I really liked except for the fact that it ran out of steam at altitude, this is the kind of thing that will chew at you every time you have to drain weight to get to surf speed.  Or it would me.  

Do we have a "Post Of The Week" thread going anywhere? I've got my nominee for this week if we do. Shawndoggy for POTW!

[IXFE]

7 hours ago, CharlieBeaU said:

Do we have a "Post Of The Week" thread going anywhere? I've got my nominee for this week if we do. Shawndoggy for POTW!

If such an award existed, the Doggy would win most weeks

[Fman]

@SCMike give Larson marine a call in Sacramento they have a satellite store in Tahoe.  They sell a good amount of Malibu's up there and can more than likely help you with preferred engine choices and performance running at that altitude.  At the very least give you there thoughts.

Also you must keep in perspective everyone on this forum will run different weights and ballast configurations.  Good example of this is with our 2017 LSV I run MLS, wedge 2-3 clicks and about 400-450lbs in rear lockers and the wave is plenty good for us.  I have not used a bow bag for years, even stopped using one on my 2015 22vlx.  I felt like the extra weight produced minimal gains in the wave that did nothing for my surfing enjoyment.

The base engine could work fine for me at higher altitudes but might not be a good fit for others who are slamming there boats.

[IXFE]

30 minutes ago, Fman said:

@SCMike give Larson marine a call in Sacramento they have a satellite store in Tahoe.  They sell a good amount of Malibu's up there and can more than likely help you with preferred engine choices and performance running at that altitude.  At the very least give you there thoughts.

Also you must keep in perspective everyone on this forum will run different weights and ballast configurations.  Good example of this is with our 2017 LSV I run MLS, wedge 2-3 clicks and about 400-450lbs in rear lockers and the wave is plenty good for us.  I have not used a bow bag for years, even stopped using one on my 2015 22vlx.  I felt like the extra weight produced minimal gains in the wave that did nothing for my surfing enjoyment.

The base engine could work fine for me at higher altitudes but might not be a good fit for others who are slamming there boats.

I don’t think this is about slamming a boat. This is about a guy who told us he couldn’t even fill his factory PnP at Tahoe in a 21 VLX (410). Having never been to Tahoe, I have to take him at his word on that. So...

If that is true, it so hard to believe that he’s gonna have trouble with a 23 LSV (450)...?  To me it seems reasonable to believe that whatever modest performance improvement he gets from his $7k “tune” will be cancelled out by the extra 1,200 lbs he’s pushing through the water.

I personally wouldn’t bet $100k on hopes,  dreams, and Indmar marketing.  That is all I was trying to get across. 

[Fman]

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

I don’t think this is about slamming a boat. This is about a guy who told us he couldn’t even fill his factory PnP at Tahoe in a 21 VLX (410). Having never been to Tahoe, I have to take him at his word on that. So...

If that is true, it so hard to believe that he’s gonna have trouble with a 23 LSV (450)...?  To me it seems reasonable to believe that whatever modest performance improvement he gets from his $7k “tune” will be cancelled out by the extra 1,200 lbs he’s pushing through the water.

I personally wouldn’t bet $100k on hopes,  dreams, and Indmar marketing.  That is all I was trying to get across. 

I totally agree that is why I recommended he calls a dealer that sells boats at that lake and altitude.  This is what I would do, elevation does make a huge difference in performance.  About 3% loss per 1000', so 15% loss on Tahoe.

Even at 2000' I notice a difference in power loss from 400' where our home lake is.  A good friend of mine runs a 2017 MB 23 on lake powell at 4000'ish with Raptor 450 with no issues and he runs his boat quite heavy.

Imho it's another reason the LSV needs the 17" prop and 2:1 trans, sure would be a nice bump in performance for Tahoe.

[SCMike]

After a demo last week, i was able to finalize my options and get my order in yesterday.  I will tell you, the 450 w/2249 was an absolute beast during the demo.  Full Ballast + PNP & 6 people in the boat, and the boat came on plane VERY quickly and had throttle for days.  Weather was great, so i was able to jump in the water and demo both the wakeboard wake and surf wake.  The wakeboard wake was amazing, and the surf wake without PNP was much better then my 21VLX with PNP.  I didn't demo at altitude, but the 450 out performed my 21VLX with a 410 fully loaded, so im sure the boat will be able to wakeboard and surf at altitude.  Worst case scenario, i have to drain PNP and some ballast, but i still get a better wake and wave then my 21VLX loaded.  I want to thank everyone for the spirited discussion and feedback. Here is where I ended up....

• Wake Hull
• 450
• High Altitude Prop (2249)
• 3 Outlet Heater
• 23 LSV Sound Pack, Subwoofer, and 1 Pair of Malibu Rev10's (My dealer was able to order the amp, dual mount, and rev 10's from the parts dept.  They will install once it gets to the dealership) 
• PTM Clamping Racks (Stoked on these!!)
• Ballast + PNP
• Surfgate & Wedge
• Cockpit Table
• Soft grip Flooring w Seat Base Covering
• Sport Dash/Rotary 
• Battery Option 2
• Phender Pro 
• 3 Pair of Cleats
• GL Cover
• GL Bimini 
• Dual Axel Trailer w/14 Inch Wheels
• Bow & Transom Steps
• SS Ratchet Straps
• Spare Tire / Side Carrier 

I'll be ordering the deck traction kit from Gatorstep.  Cost from Malibu is $725 MSRP, and from Gatorstep, the same kit is $318.55.  Plus, i want the flooring and deck traction kit to match, so i'll be ordering the brown color. 

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by SCMike