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Can't go past 3400 RPM surfing


D_Turner

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3 minutes ago, D_Turner said:

@ahopkinsTXiWill try that this weekend.  Should be able to get out again on Friday afternoon.  This past weekend, I tried zero ballast and speed control set to 10.6 and all worked well.  However, I then loaded "Surf Left" and did the test you can see in that video in the first post of the thread where the boat would never make it to 11.0mph.  So this weekend I will try do all the ballast and wedge manually and staying away from the presets all together to see what happens.

To be honest, I've never used a surf preset. I always just fill all, select the side, then dial in speed and wedge. I run a lot of events and demos as a volunteer for our dealer so I'm setting up new boats all the time. I've found this to be the easiest for me but it's personal preference. But if it works I don't think it's any harder than selecting a preset, two more clicks on the main screen. 

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Try easing up the throttle vs. immediate full throttle. It shouldn't make a difference, but for some reason the throttle position window stays lower on my cruise control when you start slower (even with the 2315 prop).

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  • 2 weeks later...

It's already been mentioned but aside from the obvious change in power from the first 18 hours, I would down prop it and see what happens.  I have a 2277 (stock) on mine which is 15"x15.75" and I bought a down prop for surfing from wake makers.  I don't remember the number but it is 15"X14.25"  I have it as part of my weekend saver kit.  My 25 LSV won't hit speed when the ballasts are full, the PNP ballast bags 770lbs per side and 12 people in the boat at first but it works fine after one or two pulls if I hammer the throttle on the 2277.  Indmar 450.  Also mine will change RPM by about 200 with each change in wedge setting.  On lift it is at 3200 loaded, on one down (ramp) it is at 3400, the 3600 on 2 down.  At three down 3800 to 3900 and at 4 down the motor really starts to strain and the wave loses length and become very vertical and I can't hold speed on the stock prop.  10.9 to 11.2 is our typical surf speed.  O2 sensors that aren't functioning properly should post a code in the computer, has the dealer run codes directly off the engine management computer?  I have never noticed the presets to make any difference in engine behavior.

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I might of missed it have you tried.  

Cruise off for all of these. 

Surf no weight 

Surf no weight, wedge down.

Surf half ballast

Surf half ballast, wedge down

Surf full ballast, 

Surf full ballast wedge

Then do it again with cruise. 

To me you have a computer problem not a motor or prop problem.

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On 9/16/2017 at 6:48 AM, Stevo said:

This may become a rabbit hole thread as I've recently had this conversation.

i don't have the Rpm issue you are having but I have noticed that depending on how you accelerate your pull will dictate an rpm range with speed control enabled. 

For example, the throttle range (where the white bar is within the green bar) when I pull my 7 yr old is much lower than when I pull my brother.  

The only reason I noticed it was my wife pulled me up and did it quite slowly to start like with one of the kids and it took forever to to get on plane , i signaled for her to drop the hammer and she did with little to no change. ( i did initially blame her, shhhh don't tell her) as I was the last in the group to go and I pulled everyone just fine.

This tells my its some sort of built in software programming.(actually @IXFE told me)

so where do we go from here, my guess is Malibu, maybe @mikeo would have a contact at the factory as I think this sort of thing is right in his wheel house.

 

This does sound like something that I might have info on, but I don't. I know of at least one person at Malibu that I could ask about this, but the reality is that Malibu is a consumer (or assembler, etc.) of the component parts. My thought is that this really has more to do with the relationship between Indmar and Medallion. If you take a look at http://www.medallionis.com/product/inboard/ you'll see that Malibu isn't the only manufacturer using the Viper 2 dash system. My money is that there is a power curve, or set of power curves, that are "healthy" for the engine and don't cause problems with excessive exhaust, backfiring, missing, etc. that Indmar provides to Medallion to program in to the dash system. When we move the throttle the computer picks one of the correct throttle curves for the amount of acceleration requested and then controls the engine accordingly.

Getting way off topic, this is what's happened to gaming systems (slot machines) over the past 10+ years. That arm on the side of the machine isn't mechanically connected to anything, it's a USB device with preprogrammed resistance; I'm assuming that the throttle in our boats is the same thing. (just not connected via USB, but can't be too far off)

The best evidence of this is the "docking" mode button that I'm sure none of us ever use on the dash. The manual even call out that it enables a "docking throttle profile" when you press the button in the bottom right of the 12' screen. If I get a chance this season, or what may be left of it, I want to drive without the ZeroOff engaged for a surf set back-to-back with a ZeroOff controlled surf set. My theory is that there will be significantly more throttle available after I get to surf speed since the computer didn't know in advance what I was trying to do. I'm going to have to be very careful to make sure I accelerate with as close to the same motion for both runs for it to be a valid test. I also think this is one of the next advancements we'll see in speed control systems: a "hole shot" profile where the driver can select from a list of acceleration curves from "hammer down" to "driving Miss Daisy" to get the rider up. I thought I even heard that one of the other manufacturers tournament boats had this feature, but I haven't been able to confirm it.

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Sorry for the delay.  I did get out last weekend for two days.  I started testing by loading all settings manually on the screen and using no presets which is what the dealer wanted me to try.  I saw no difference.  Created a new preset using the "Surf Left" default settings....noticed no difference.  Here is a video that is much clearer than the earlier one I posted.   As stated before, tried gps, paddle wheel, no cruise....all same results.

Video:  Right Surf Gate, wedge two clicks from Ramp, all ballast full.  There are only two people in the boat(350lbs of human ballast...driver plus person holding the phone filming next to driver), and nobody being towed.  Gas tank was at about 35% sitting level so its down 100-150+ lbs of fuel weight from where I usually run at (full gas tank).  Maybe that hurts it a little if the gas tank runs up through midship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dPSzECL5e4

As you can see boat can only do 10.4-10.5mph.  It starts off showing the green bar, turns white, then that's all shes got.

As for trying different ballasts and things....yes, if you dump rear PNP boat will go faster and achieve 10.6-10.8, but thats it.  If you take wedge back to ramp, yes boat will run faster.  That all functions as expected, less ballast = faster achievable speed.  The problem is in what the boat used to do compared to what it will now do.  Loading default "Surf Left" preset settings was used for multiple hours on this boat at 11.0-11.3 mph and the green bar would be on the screen with the white target area, throttle would not be maxed out at 100%(throttle stick all the way forward), no problems getting to those speeds.  Now under the same setup, you are lucky to get 10.6, no green bar, and throttle buried all the way forward.

So far I haven't figured anything out.  I got a message from my dealer today saying he got me a new tower speaker amp that should be here next week so boat will be going back to get that swapped out soon.  They will make another attempt at seeing what my concern is with the surfing speed I guess.  If they can't fix anything, I guess I will just prop it next season and see what happens, I just feel like I am putting a band aid on a problem that wasn't there until the boat suddenly wouldn't even plane out, stuck at 9.2mph when it first occurred...ever since then it has been a challenge to run decent speeds.

No engine codes of any kind.  Last Friday water was calm so ran the boat full throttle with zero ballast for a minute or so.....  5500 rpm, 41.3mph.  Everything felt, ran fine.  Prop is an OJ 948

I also have a contact from Malibu Tech that reached out yesterday after I didn't fill out their initial build quality survey very highly.  I didn't get a chance to contact him yet to see his opinion, but will first of next week.  Tower speakers that don't work, interior speakers that don't work properly, under dash panel falls out when in chop, nuts off seat backs falling off, whatever is going on with my surf speed, boat went back to dealer to fix all but one of those issues and so far after 1 attempt none were fixed.  So yeah, initial build quality is low.  I ain't mad though(yet), I just want a fully working boat.  :)

Hopefully get back on the water again Sunday.

 

edit:  as for props, after reading some threads on here from 2015 testing, it looks like I would try a OJ 945 or 2315  That will be next springs project.   Sooner or later I got to get back above 10.4mph even if it comes down to changing props.

Edited by D_Turner
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My 21 acts the exact same way. If we fill all ballast it acts like it doesn’t have enough to reach past 10.5 unless we add an adult to bow. Now I have found it helps to add the wedge after we get to speed, but we don’t surf past 10.3 - 10.5. Now I did change my oj to a acme 2277 and seem to help starting out way better. Why they did the oj props on only these boats it strange. If we add an adult to bow I can hit 11 it seems no problem.

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1 hour ago, Koeh0083 said:

My 21 acts the exact same way. If we fill all ballast it acts like it doesn’t have enough to reach past 10.5 unless we add an adult to bow. Now I have found it helps to add the wedge after we get to speed, but we don’t surf past 10.3 - 10.5. Now I did change my oj to a acme 2277 and seem to help starting out way better. Why they did the oj props on only these boats it strange. If we add an adult to bow I can hit 11 it seems no problem.

I guess that will be the answer to this...changing prop.  All I know is the boat was surfed at 11.0 and slightly higher multiple times, then all of a sudden you couldn't even with 600+ less pounds of human ballast(not in the bow).  One day you couldn't even go above 9.2mph and the wave was obviously unsurfable(never cleaned up).

Anyway, I will update if dealer has any thoughts.  Other than that, it will probably be spring before anything changes with the prop.

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ahopkins22LSV

Please keep us updated. I had my money on the preset programming throwing it off. Pretty crazy. You didn't happen to calibrate your speedo in between it working correctly and now? Or accidentally switch from zero off to the paddle wheel or vice versa?

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Whoever else drove your boat that day at approx. 18 hours is to blame! maybe haha. But seriously, you weren't the only one driving that day were you? Torture the other drivers til they tell you what they pushed.

It's prob a low voltage problem based on other threads I've read. Everything is a voltage problem now. :)

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  • 1 year later...

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