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Can't go past 3400 RPM surfing


D_Turner

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2017 VLX 21 worked great for first 18 or so hours.  3 weeks ago was out wakeboarding and surfing and no issues.  About halfway thru the day, we could no longer surf without dumping rear ballast.  The boat would never hit the target speed on the cruise(default 10.6mph).  Fully loaded it would only hit 9.2 mph with 4 passengers.  We dumped about 50-75% of rear PNP ballast and then it would get to 10.6 and wave would clean up.  We did this for awhile but it still wasn't the way the boat functioned the first 18 hours.  When you started off, you would have to go to full throttle....the green bar would never turn green.  It would just stay gray saying "More Throttle".  RPMs seemed limited, but I didn't really play very close attention to that at that time other than a mental note.

Boat was going back to the dealer for stereo issues the next Monday so I just loaded up and fully discussed this with them and they were going to check it out when they dealt with my stereo problems(I mentioned it other threads).

Fast forward 9 days and I got my boat back from the dealer.  Did not fix stereo(another thread), they stated that they fully lake tested the boat with no problems.  They weighted it out and stated they ran it for almost an hour(more like 10min according to my GPS tracker but that is another discussion).  No issues according to them.

I get the boat back and now fast forward another 1.5 weeks as I was on a vacation.  I take the boat out for the first time tonight to try out the surfing.  Same issue right off the bat.  Something is different than first 18 hours.  It seems software/cruise related to me.  In "Surf Left" default loaded and 10.6 mph set, the boat will not run past 3400 rpm.  No matter what I do speed setting wise, throttle position, etc. the boat will NOT go past 3400 rpm.  If there is too much weight for the speed setting at 3400 rpm, the speed will never get there.  Throttle is wide open.

I had my dad film a video of the screen with his phone, but I didn't realize the glare was so bad so it is hard to see until after we got done and I played the videos back.  I am going out again tomorrow so will try to do a better one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWAWPxhxl8U

In the video, notice the speed setting is 11.0 mph.  I have the throttle wide open.  Notice rpms never move above 3400 rpm.  It never hits 11.0.  Green bar never comes up.  With 4 passengers and choppy lake, you can't do 10.6 wide open throttle.  Before whatever happened at 18 hours you could do way more than that with same settings.

Of note, off cruise control, the boat runs fine.  I ran it up to 5000 rpm and 35mph just cruising down the lake right before the video you see above.  Boat has 650 PNP bags in the rear installed by dealer.  410 Raptor engine.  I have tried zero off gps and paddle wheel.  No difference.  I think the video was while in paddle wheel mode.  Elevation 1065ft.

One question I have is, these boats will run above 3400 rpm to reach a surf cruise speed correct??  I honestly never paid attention until the problem started and now I can not go above 3400.  I seem to recall hitting like 4000 rpm or so when setting the speed to 11.0+ mph before the problem started.  I should be able to go above 3400 rpm correct if things are functioning normal?  I do want to verify that not going past 3400 is an issue to ease my mind when talking to the dealer. 

Anybody ever seen this problem?  Any ideas?  After a 9 day stay at my dealer, they were of zero help on first attempt on three issues the boat has(this one, plus 2 stereo problems).  And now after learning there is a service bulletin out on the EXACT stereo problem I am having(due to my own research) really makes me loose faith in the dealer. 

 

edit - Something I thought about just now, tomorrow I will turn speed control off and see how the boat runs under same conditions and see how many rpms it will do at say 11.0-.2 or so.  Fairly new to these boats, so didn't think about turning that off today when I noticed the 3400 rpm limit.  I have a feeling it will go much faster with it off(11.0+mph), but could be wrong.  I will report back.  Atleast that will for sure narrow it to the speed control for the dealer to focus on.

Edited by D_Turner
Idea
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11 hours ago, D_Turner said:

edit - Something I thought about just now, tomorrow I will turn speed control off and see how the boat runs under same conditions and see how many rpms it will do at say 11.0-.2 or so.  Fairly new to these boats, so didn't think about turning that off today when I noticed the 3400 rpm limit.  I have a feeling it will go much faster with it off(11.0+mph), but could be wrong.  I will report back.  Atleast that will for sure narrow it to the speed control for the dealer to focus on.

I'm glad you thought of this.  It was what I was going to suggest.  Leave off cruise control and work the throttle manually.  If there is still a problem then this gets interesting.  If not then.... where is the cruise control in a 21VLX anyway?  Is it software only or is there a separate actuating mechanism like in a perfect pass install?   Wherever it is hunt down the faulty input and/or replace the computer

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18 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

I'm glad you thought of this.  It was what I was going to suggest.  Leave off cruise control and work the throttle manually.  If there is still a problem then this gets interesting.  If not then.... where is the cruise control in a 21VLX anyway?  Is it software only or is there a separate actuating mechanism like in a perfect pass install?   Wherever it is hunt down the faulty input and/or replace the computer

Do the newer speed controls have an RPM and speed mode like the old perfect pass units?  Pretty sure my 2012 has an RPM mode - take a look at your manual and see if you have inadvertently switched to RPM control instead of Speed.

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This may become a rabbit hole thread as I've recently had this conversation.

i don't have the Rpm issue you are having but I have noticed that depending on how you accelerate your pull will dictate an rpm range with speed control enabled. 

For example, the throttle range (where the white bar is within the green bar) when I pull my 7 yr old is much lower than when I pull my brother.  

The only reason I noticed it was my wife pulled me up and did it quite slowly to start like with one of the kids and it took forever to to get on plane , i signaled for her to drop the hammer and she did with little to no change. ( i did initially blame her, shhhh don't tell her) as I was the last in the group to go and I pulled everyone just fine.

This tells my its some sort of built in software programming.(actually @IXFE told me)

so where do we go from here, my guess is Malibu, maybe @mikeo would have a contact at the factory as I think this sort of thing is right in his wheel house.

 

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@Stevo, oh yes that is true. I've got a soft touch on the throttle so it does take a few seconds longer when I pull someone and the sweet spot is always lower on the bar than when another driver hammers it.

Still, we have to reconcile that for 18 months the op claims it was fine. Though they didn't pay much attention. 

Well you know what they say about software. If you're writing code you're writing bugs. 

This'll be a neat thread. 

 

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Thanks for the info so far.  The wierd thing to me is it was like the flip of a switch during that outing around that 18 hour mark.  Functioned flawlessly at all times before that at hitting the speeds and the white/green bar functioning like I would think it should.  After some more thought, I would think if it was ONLY software related a power off/on of the system would fix it.  Obviously that hasn't worked so far.  If a power off/on doesn't fix, then seems more like an input/signal/electronics somewhere has changed and the software for whatever reason is holding 3400 rpm instead of mph.  Headed out in about 2 hours....will report back after testing with speed control off.  There will be three more people in the boat so it should run even slower at 3400rpm if it stays limited there on cruise.  I looked through the settings on the boat and manual and didn't see a RPM vs MPH cruise setting.

@StevoMost times you don't even get green to come up on the speed control bar now.  Before the problem started, you instantly got the green bar to come up with the white window to target kinda in the middle and you chased the white box from the initial hit of the throttle.  Now, for the most part, you never see green.  The bar does seem to show slightly different depending on how quickly you throttle up.  If you hammer it, the bar will turn green for a second or so but there is no white bar or it is at the far right of the green kinda half off screen, then bar turns white(More Throttle).

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@Stevo It will hit the target speed because the boat can get to the speed at 3400 rpm with little ballast.  The mph control still seems to function to a degree, but it is like there is an rev limiter set at 3400 that comes on also now.  I didn't try it with zero weight before it went to the dealer, but did dump the bags and it would get to 10.6mph and hold it.  The more weight obviously the boat is going to require more rpm to hit 10.6mph....once you cross that point of too much weight for 3400rpm and the target speed, it won't get there.

I will try it with zero ballast to start with today just to verify, but I think it will function at what appears normal.  Then I will add weight next.  I do believe once we get enough weight that it requires more than 3400 rpm it will all go wrong.  :)

A normal surfing rpm, fully weighted, 11.0mph, could be as high as 4000 rpm correct?  I never paid much attention to my RPMs before all this started, but seem to recall seeing around 4000 rpm on a couple trips with 4 passengers and 11.0 mph setting.  Can't get 4000 rpm now.

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15 minutes ago, D_Turner said:

 

A normal surfing rpm, fully weighted, 11.0mph, could be as high as 4000 rpm correct?  I never paid much attention to my RPMs before all this started, but seem to recall seeing around 4000 rpm on a couple trips with 4 passengers and 11.0 mph setting.  Can't get 4000 rpm now.

When I drive my friends 25 LSV loaded it sits a t 3600-3800 rpm's depending on how much people weight there is in the boat. Not sure that translates to your boat..

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I had a very similar problem with my lsv. It was my o2 sensors fouling up. Malibu's fix was to run boat unloaded for 10 minutes above 4000rpm  it was like I had a smaller motor in the boat when this happened. I did however get a service code flash up a little after this started happening. 

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Okay, back from the lake probably with more questions than answers .  Started out with zero ballast and speed control set to 10.6mph.  Increased throttle, speed control bar turned green and gave you the white bar area to 'target' and the white target area was around middle of the bar.  Pretty much typical operation and RPMs were around 2600rpm.  Filled up ballast to max.  Tried again and back to same thing with the speed control bar showing white whole time with no green and 100% throttle and saying "More Throttle".  Boat would do about 10.6mph or so at 100% throttle but the speed control bar is all white.  It used to handle this speed fine with same ballast, bar would be green with the white target area around the middle of the bar.

Next step was to turn speed control off so was controlling speed manually.  Increased throttle to max and the bar was indicating 100% throttle, but the boat had no more pull and it maxed out around 10.7-8mph.  RPMs were around 3500-3600rpm.

So after trying that with speed control off and basically getting the same thing, I don't think it is limited at 3400 rpm.  I saw 3500/3600 or so but no more.  My thinking now is with the speed control bar showing 100% throttle with speed control off and the boat having no more pull maybe the TPS has gone bad or needs recalibrating.  Just seems like I am not getting full power of the engine at 100% throttle.  The speed control seems to be trying, but the boat will not pull as hard as before.

Just walked out to the boat and turned on the MTC.  Checked the settings tab and TCP1 and TCP2 go 0-100% and seem normal with the throttle movement.  "TPS actual" is 6% which I am not sure what that is.  So maybe the TPS is fine.  Pretty much clueless at this point.  Boat just seems to noticeably have less pull to me when surfing than it used to and this problem started instantly a few weeks back.  My gut is now telling me it is not speed control related due to the same problem with speed control off.  Engine runs smooth as it did when it was brand new, just doesn't have the pull it did apparently.

I know a couple here have '17 21 VLXs.  Anybody had problems running 11.0-11.5 mph with about 600lbs of human ballast plus 650 PNP bags?  Mine used to fine, but no more.    I have no idea what prop is on this thing, would have to check that for comparison. 

I really didn't get to test and play with it as much as I wanted to.  Had several onboard including a young nephew with a brand new surfboard who were not interested in spending half a day testing the boat.  I got some videos of the screen/speed control, but they are not on my phone so I got to get them.

I have a feeling this issue will get pushed into next season since it is so hard to really described it or really nail down an exact cause so far.  Lake was noticeably cooler than it was 3 weeks ago when I was out last. 

@wheelmanI will keep an eye out for the O2 sensor problem.  I haven't seen any codes, but could see that causing a problem if they do give problems.  I work at a high performance racing engine supplier and know all about O2 sensor and EFI problems.

@Stevo I did not slowly add ballast.  Started out with zero.  Stopped.  Then filled it all up.  I can try that next time.  Hopefully in a week if weather holds out.

I will provide any updates when I get any.  May be awhile.

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Are you sure the wedge is deploying correctly?  I wonder if you have just an incredible amount of drag coming from somewhere while surfing.  Did you run all those tests with the wedge deployed?

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1 hour ago, Slurpee said:

Are you sure the wedge is deploying correctly?  I wonder if you have just an incredible amount of drag coming from somewhere while surfing.  Did you run all those tests with the wedge deployed?

Good thought.  I really have no idea.  Hadn't really thought about the wedge until you mentioned it.  The no ballast test was done with no wedge also.  All other testing was done after loading "Surf Left" which deploys the wedge to 3 or 4 clicks from Stow.  The screen indicator for the wedge is highlighting the box left of center I believe.  It could be the one right of center.  Will have to check a video to be 100% sure.  I know it is one of those two.  I usually never mess with the wedge.....just load "Surf Left" and maybe play with MPH a little.

I never have messed with the wedge outside of the water.  Can I do this on the trailer and see where it goes in that position?  What would that position look like if working properly.

Too many things that affect other things....hard to try it all in every config.  lol

Edited by D_Turner
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Yeah, I was a little disappointed as well.  Was hoping it was going to go much higher and be acting like a parachute.  Oh well, I will attempt to keep finding a cause to the symptom.  I will probably try to setup a lake test towards the end of the season.  I have to contact them tomorrow about finding out the answer to my stereo problems so will discuss it with them.  There is only a few weeks left of decent water temps and the boat is still surfable at <10.6mph or so, so we can manage for now.

Thanks for the ideas

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I only skimmed most of the replies, but isn't the obvious answer the prop? Are you just using the standard prop that came on your boat? My 2013 VLX wouldn't maintain surf speeds with the standard prop. My 2017 22VLX is better, but still with ballast fully loaded and people in the boat it didn't take more than an hour or two for me to order a 2315.

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40 minutes ago, gobble said:

I only skimmed most of the replies, but isn't the obvious answer the prop? Are you just using the standard prop that came on your boat? My 2013 VLX wouldn't maintain surf speeds with the standard prop. My 2017 22VLX is better, but still with ballast fully loaded and people in the boat it didn't take more than an hour or two for me to order a 2315.

This is a recent problem, see the original post. First 18 months were fine. 

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It says first 18 HOURS were fine. The first 10 shouldn't even have had ballast on board which made me think this was maybe a first time surfing problem?

I know also with my boat if you start out by slamming on the throttle the little sweet spot on the cruise line stays a lot higher up then when you ease onto the throttle. I'm not sure why that is. When I had the original prop on my boat I would need to be full throttle to maintain speed, although I did see that change a bit when I eased onto the throttle.

Edited by gobble
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I would say prop as well, but this was like flipping a switch difference.  We had been out on more than one day running 10.6-11.2 same people/ballast and not an issue.  When the problem happened the first time was mid way through a day.  The very first time it occurred, the boat wouldn't even go past 9.2mph on multiple tries and the wave wouldn't clean up where it had went to 10.6+ mph with zero issues(green bar with the sweet spot acting normal) minutes before with same ballast/settings.  Ever since then, which we are now at 24 hours, it just doesn't function the same.  Boat struggles to ever pull to 10.6 with 3 people in the boat, with the heaviest person in the bow.  Totally different than before when whatever changed, changed.  My 72 year old dad who hasn't been in a boat in probably 30 years and this whole ballasting a boat and surfing idea is all new to him, drove it a few times before the problem, and even he says it isn't working like it was.

Mechanically, the boat feels smooth as ever.  I ran it at 5000 rpm and 35+mph(zero ballast) and it was smooth as can be over the weekend.  During surfing now, the boat still runs perfectly smooth.  Just doesn't have the pull.  If this was a car, I would say the throttle isn't opening fully now and it is down on HP.  Also of note, the boat has been to the dealer during this and they serviced it and checked everything over.  Found nothing.  I have talked to them again today after showing them a video and they said with the way this boat is setup with the 410 on this smaller boat it should have no problem handling the typical surfing speeds.  Same engine in their LSV and 24 MXZ(much heavier and more ballast) setups and they handle the speed fine...I do believe the trans is different ratio in these 21VLXs though?

They had a LSV with exact same complaint several years ago and after talking to Malibu they cleared the presets.  Problem seemed to be fixed after that and never got another complaint.  So that is what we will try next and see what happens.  Boat is still usable, so its not like the end of the world.  We will work through it hopefully. 

BTW, the prop is stock.  I will have to check it to see what it is.  Maybe my paper work says somewhere or I will look at the prop itself ASAP.  I am at 1065ft elevation.

 

 

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This is a really good thread.  I have had similar issues with my 2011 and 2012. The 2007 was much more responsive.  Tons of throttle left and no noticeable extra power.  Same engine in all three boats.  5.7 monsoon. Same prop 1235. 

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@ahopkinsTXiWill try that this weekend.  Should be able to get out again on Friday afternoon.  This past weekend, I tried zero ballast and speed control set to 10.6 and all worked well.  However, I then loaded "Surf Left" and did the test you can see in that video in the first post of the thread where the boat would never make it to 11.0mph.  So this weekend I will try do all the ballast and wedge manually and staying away from the presets all together to see what happens.

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