For those with big audio systems- how do you supply enough juice?

[bm11]

Hello,

First, I had to use the word "juice" rather than "electricity" because the title was too long.

Second, this thread is coming as a result of someone making an excellent point in another thread of mine- that large sound systems are installed in these boats without supporting electronics in place (larger alternators, bigger batteries) and that the correct thing to do is to run both batteries at the same time to take the benefit of double capacity. In some cases installing a larger alternator is required to keep up. I'm curious to know what everyone else is doing, I'm running into issues where normal operation of the boat isn't enough to keep the voltage up, and my batteries are constantly dipping down to the 10.5 volt range. I ran into an issue on Monday where my boat had to be jumped, and it had been running and pulling for close to two hours straight before that point (a lot of time idling getting a first time surfer into place, but still, the motor was running and didn't have enough juice to restart 30 seconds later.)

I'm not sure how big my audio upgrades are in the grand scheme of things, but here is what the window sticker of my '17 23 LSV lists:

Sound system- Wake 23 LSV Pack (8 in speakers) $4522

Subwoofer- 12 inch Subwoofer (w/amp) $907

Black- Speakers- Wet Sounds Rev 8 w/Horn (1 set) $1910

Black- Speakers- Wet Sounds Rev 8 w/Horn (2nd set) $1805

Tower Amp- 500w $1067

Total audio options: $10,211

I'm curious to hear what other issues and solutions you guys have been seeing.

Thanks,

Bob

[shadetreefab]

12 in boats , 4 tower and a sub, right around 3k watts @14 volts.

i run two batts, one boat and one just stereo, with a blue seas dual circuit switch. minn cota onboard charger, plug it in when I get home to keep them full. 105 amp alt.

if we just go out and park I can pound on it for about 5 hours before I get low voltage cut off. If we surf and ski it will last the weekend.

[formulaben]

1 hour ago, bm11 said:

...

I'm curious to know what everyone else is doing, I'm running into issues where normal operation of the boat isn't enough to keep the voltage up, and my batteries are constantly dipping down to the 10.5 volt range. I ran into an issue on Monday where my boat had to be jumped, and it had been running and pulling for close to two hours straight before that point (a lot of time idling getting a first time surfer into place, but still, the motor was running and didn't have enough juice to restart 30 seconds later.)

That's way too low to let your voltage go down.  11-11.6 volts is the lowest you should go, as you risk damaging your battery, including reverse polarity on the weakest cell.  At ~11 volts you've used over 90% of its capacity, and at 10.5V the battery is effectively DEAD and on its way to damage, possibly with the inability to recover. I currently have 2 Group 29 deep cycle batteries with the Blue Seas Add-a-Battery system.  It keeps thing simple and stupid proof.  You'll never need a jump if installed correctly, as the starting battery is isolated from the house (stereo) battery.

You clearly have a high wattage system with a big draw.  If you need more stereo time, then increase capacity with another battery; in your case I'd have at least 2 house and 1 starting.  If you trailer your boat, then definitely put it on a dual/multi-bank charger when you're done for the day.

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by formulaben
added chart

[Gavin17]

What amps do you have?  How much do they draw? 

 

I use 2 group 31 batteries and an on board charger.  The charger is key.   Pretty much anytime the boat isn't being used it's on the charger.  You may need 3 batteries and I'd still get a charger.  Your alternator isn't designed to bring up your dead house batteries. 

[racer808]

I used 3 Precision Power class D amps on my last boat & it was plenty banging.  Ran two ppi900.4 amps bridged for my four tower speakers, the ppi900.5 to power a 12" sub & 4 interior speakers.  Was a very impressive system for what it was & what it cost.  I only had two batteries & was never left dead even after an afternoon at the party cove.

Edited September 6, 2017 by racer808

[bm11]

I live on the lake and don't have power all the way down to my dock, so I'm hoping for a solution not involving having to hook up a charger every night after use. Ideally I'd like a solution where this boats power supply is self sustaining.

The dealer does have a tech in my area today who will take a look, I'm hoping the find a resolution that is simple and solves this problem going forward. I'd hate to have to worry every time I sit in the water listening to music "will my boat start" or have to start carrying around a booster box just in case. Heck, this boat is all stock, Malibu installed all of the audio as well as the battery setup, I'd hope they wouldn't put in a stereo that the stock charging system couldn't keep up with. Going to a three battery system may be an eventuality I'll have to consider, but hopefully not yet as I just paid six figures for this boat brand new 8 days ago.

I was interested to see what everyone has had for an experience, keep them rolling in!

 

[MadMan]

You guys have a lot more courage than I do, my engine/starting battery is completely isolated from my house battery so I can always start the boat.

[wheelman]

I would load test your batteries, sounds like they are bad. I had the same thing in my 2015 new lsv that the batteries it came with were junk and would run Down so quick. They were also both starting batteries. You need a good deep cycle battery for your house battery and you shouldn't be running around or turned of on both batteries

[MLA]

3 hours ago, bm11 said:

large sound systems are installed in these boats without supporting electronics in place (larger alternators, bigger batteries) and that the correct thing to do is to run both batteries at the same time to take the benefit of double capacity

This is out of context. A common 90A alternator and single group 24 battery can support a very large system, if all you do is ride. If you spend both days of the weekend anchored at the sand bar or party cove, different story. You will need more AH in your battery bank, but a shore charger is better for most, over a HO alternator.

As to running combined all the time? misinformation considering it leaves out the switch/battery bank setup. Even then, this poor advice leaves you with a dead cranking bank, looking for a tow back to the dock. 

[Simo]

Before you do anything, I would confirm that your batteries and alternator are good.  You shouldn't have a problem with what came stock with the boat.

I know you said you don't have electric at your dock but if at all possible I would look into somehow charging these with an on board charger whenever possible. 

[bm11]

47 minutes ago, MLA said:

This is out of context. A common 90A alternator and single group 24 battery can support a very large system, if all you do is ride. If you spend both days of the weekend anchored at the sand bar or party cove, different story. You will need more AH in your battery bank, but a shore charger is better for most, over a HO alternator.

As to running combined all the time? misinformation considering it leaves out the switch/battery bank setup. Even then, this poor advice leaves you with a dead cranking bank, looking for a tow back to the dock. 

Here is the thing though- I was using the boat the whole time. I never anchored or rafted. The idling time was spent getting a new surf boarder into position for another pull, and this was after two of us surfed for a while first. As soon as I put the boat in neutral the voltage would start dropping, and it continued to dip lower and lower as the day was going. When she finally had enough, I killed the engine to get her aboard, and the boat was literally dead enough to not start. When I swapped batteries it still didn't start, which means the day prior when I was pulling surfers the battery dropped then also. So basically, even with use, my charging system is not keeping up. This is not a case of a battery dying after a long day supplying music to an entire cove.

 

6 minutes ago, ConnollyCrew said:

What batteries(type and size) are currently in your boat? I run two group 31 AGM batteries and it works for me but at the end of a long day of riding I have had mower voltages in my batteries as well.

Unsure. Whatever is included in "battery set up- option 2."

[ConnollyCrew]

2 minutes ago, bm11 said:

Here is the thing though- I was using the boat the whole time. I never anchored or rafted. The idling time was spent getting a new surf boarder into position for another pull, and this was after two of us surfed for a while first. As soon as I put the boat in neutral the voltage would start dropping, and it continued to dip lower and lower as the day was going. When she finally had enough, I killed the engine to get her aboard, and the boat was literally dead enough to not start. When I swapped batteries it still didn't start, which means the day prior when I was pulling surfers the battery dropped then also. So basically, even with use, my charging system is not keeping up. This is not a case of a battery dying after a long day supplying music to an entire cove.

 

Unsure. Whatever is included in "battery set up- option 2."

My guess is your dealer installed the common group 24 batteries in your boat, these need to be upgraded to a larger capacity deep discharge battery(given the batteries in your boat are standard group 24 batteries). This will give you more play time. After this is done the next step(if needed) would be adding a third battery as a couple have mentioned above. If/when you upgrade look into Group 27 or 31 AGM.

Edited September 6, 2017 by ConnollyCrew

[bm11]

53 minutes ago, ConnollyCrew said:

My guess is your dealer installed the common group 24 batteries in your boat, these need to be upgraded to a larger capacity deep discharge battery(given the batteries in your boat are standard group 24 batteries). This will give you more play time. After this is done the next step(if needed) would be adding a third battery as a couple have mentioned above. If/when you upgrade look into Group 27 or 31 AGM.

OK, I hope that if this is the case that it is covered under warranty because $500 in battery upgrades one week in would be tough to swallow, being that Malibu installed the stereo and not me.

[ConnollyCrew]

I would reach out to my dealer and let them know the power issues you are having. Have you had them check your alternator? Alternators have been known to go bad on new boats...

[MLA]

@bm11

I am very familiar with the output and current draw of your audio gear. With a good battery and a working charging system, you will not experience the issues you are describing. Sounds like you have a charging issue. From the sounds of it, you have a traditional 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch. This simplifies the probable failures. I feel you have a legitimate failure, not the battery/alternator design shortcoming you are looking for. Ive been around much larger audio builds with similar sized alternators and same battery setups with no fear of experiencing what you are experiencing. 

[Sailvi767]

5 hours ago, bm11 said:

Here is the thing though- I was using the boat the whole time. I never anchored or rafted. The idling time was spent getting a new surf boarder into position for another pull, and this was after two of us surfed for a while first. As soon as I put the boat in neutral the voltage would start dropping, and it continued to dip lower and lower as the day was going. When she finally had enough, I killed the engine to get her aboard, and the boat was literally dead enough to not start. When I swapped batteries it still didn't start, which means the day prior when I was pulling surfers the battery dropped then also. So basically, even with use, my charging system is not keeping up. This is not a case of a battery dying after a long day supplying music to an entire cove.

 

Unsure. Whatever is included in "battery set up- option 2."

I suspect your alternator is bad. 

[Sailvi767]

To add to the alternator issue it's pretty easy to narrow it down. The voltage reported on the dash with the new Malibu's is about .3 to .4 less than actual voltage. I checked yesterday. This is pretty normal in boats, planes, cars ect... and deals with where the voltage is measured. You should see about 12.5 volts with fully charged batteries and the engine off and accessories off. With the engine running you should see about 13.8 volts with rpm above 2000. If you are seeing less than 13.5 you have a issue. The actual recommended charging range for a alternator is 13.8 to 14.2. Subtract the .3 gauge error and you should see 13.5 to 13.9. My 2016 and 2017 both showed 13.8. 

As best I can tell the stock 2017 stereo system with 1 sub and 1 set of tower speakers is pulling 90 to 100 amps at full power. The alternator is either a 95 or 105 Amp depending on the source. Looks like the stock system has enough power however if running the stereo hard you are going to put very few amps back in the batteries and below 2000 RPM are probably pulling amps out of battery bank. A 120 AMP Balmor marine alternator would have been better but they are pricey! 

[bm11]

OK as an update the dealer sent the service manager out Wednesday (I kind of have two threads going on this at this point so if you read the other one already I apologize.) He found a loose wire on the alternator and told me that I picked up a volt after tightening it down. He also said that when it goes in for winter storage he plans on swapping the batteries out as he isn't a fan of the ones installed in this boat (it was a different location of the same company that did the prep work.) They are only group 24 non AGM's, he is going to replace them with AGM's and I told him to talk to me about options as far as upgrading to group 31 batteries at that time as well.

I took the boat out again yesterday and didn't notice a ton of improvement, the battery still dipped to 11.0 volts if left at idle, though I was seeing 13.8 under load. I'm no electrician but it looks to me as though the batteries are either bad or need to be put on a charger at this point.

[Stevo]

52 minutes ago, ConnollyCrew said:

I charge my batteries after every 4 or more hour trip, the alternator will not keep them charged. ..... If your boat has a on board charger run an extension cord and top them off.

+1 for the onboard charger, easy $100 investment that pays for itself just in convenience 

[bm11]

I need like 240 feet of extension cord to pull that off...

[isellacuras]

My boat is 4+ years old.  550 hours and a decent DIY stereo. No onboard charger and never a battery/voltage issue. Best charger you can have is using your boat regularly. I keep wanting to get an onboard charger but my first set of batteries lasted over 3 years and a lot of hours. I was also considering upgrading the batteries to a group 27 or 29 but I figure $100 in wal Mart batteries every 2-3 years is a pretty cheap maintenance investment. If I parked the boat in the garage I could see it being more of an easy decision to add a charger. My boat sits about 75' from my garage in a covered carport and I don't really want to run power out there. 

[Lees23]

3 hours ago, ConnollyCrew said:

Better go to Home Depot....Seriously, you need to charge your batteries every couple trips out or so. 

If the boat is never or rarely shut off you think it needs to be charged? I disagree.. if there is extended time with the radio on and boat off, I would agree.  We don't charge our cars every 4th trip.  Something is way off, bad battery or bad alternator.  It sucks that it wasn't identified one the service managers first visit. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Lees23

[Steve B.]

I didn't read all the above posts. I top off my battery's if it sits anything more than a week. We chill with a couple amps, etc. going more than we do running. I guess my thought is, top them off, so when I'm on the lake, the alternator can easily keep up because I pre-loaded battery's.

Knock on wood, never had an issue.

Steve B.

[Lees23]

2 hours ago, ConnollyCrew said:

Your car isn't running 3 amps.....his boat is.....not being ugly, just stating facts. Cars that run comparable audio setups in regards to power NEED capacitors, larger batteries and or h/o alternators.....

I will stick to the "not being ugly" theme here as well.  

Many, many cars out there running as much, and much more current drain than the 2018 Malibu factory optioned 2 amp system(I believe he is running 2 amps) that don't require a charge after driving them around.  Most of those cars are only running one battery as well.  I was that kid in high school and had some crazy set ups.. yes, I had  capacitors but that doesn't decrease your battery drain.  

I am on my 4th boat and the previous 3 have all had upgraded, multi amp systems, I have only ever needed to worry about a charge after hours "on the hook".  My current boat has never dropped below 12.8v while running and 12.3v not running and the stereo on(at times excessive volume levels).  I only ever run one battery at a time as well.. right or wrong I was told the "both" option is never a good idea and is only to be used when you need both batteries to turn the motor over.  

An on board charger is always a good idea(I had the dealer put one in my boat before delivery) but I do not believe that it is the solution to the problem here. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Lees23

[wheelman]

My last 3 boats all had huge stereo's, 5 amps. I run two group 27 batteries for stereo and a separate starting battery. I keep my boat on the lift all summer where there is no power so no way to plug in. I spend 4 plus ours at the sand bar with stereo going pretty loud atleast twice per week rest of the time surfing and never had a problem charging back up. My stereo batteries are 4 years old and have been in 3 different boats. Op definitely has an issue with batteries or alternator or both. Also don't run your switch on both if one battery is discharged farther than the other it will actually discharge the other and it is hard on your alternator. In my 15 lsv I would just always run and start on battery 2 which was my house/stereo bank and I would always have a fully charged starting #1 battery in case I killed battery 2. I would periodically run on battery 1 just to make sure it was charged up on the way home. Only easier way is to have an acr which I now have.