M235 & 1/2 Ton Truck

[tjklein]

A lot 1/2 ton trucks pull the heavy boats okay.  If you weight everything correctly or have bags in the rear it actually tows them okay for the most part.  

What a 1/2 ton won't do nearly as well is stop a heavy load.  Everyone talks about towing in terms of pulling, but one of the biggest differences I noticed was in stopping/slowing down.  You don't want a light truck for that and nothing on a 1/2 ton comes close to the brake system on a 3/4 ton truck (especially if it has an exhaust brake)

And yes...no one needs a 3/4 ton diesel.  :-)  It's overkill.

[TenTwentyOne]

13 hours ago, MadMan said:

When a trailer is manufactured, the axles (single, dual, triple)  and boat can be positioned for any tongue weight desired.  Also every boat trailer I've had, single and dual, has been absolutely stable.  No tracking/stability problems at all.  I can't say the same for my cargo or car trailers.  I believe it has to do with the distance the axles are from the hitch, boats are rear heavy so the axles are father back on the boat trailers.

 

Yes, I realize that.......but if you just order the trailer, and leave it up to the trailer mfr to place the axles, and don't specifically ask to have the front axle of a tridem placed at the same location as the front axle for the tandem version, the trailer will come with the front axle further forward, which will reduce tongue weight. I'm not saying you can't custom order a triaxle with the same tongue weight. They will build anything you want. But if you leave it to them, the triaxle will have less tongue weight.

As far as tracking/stability, that is going to depend on the weight of the boat. A whole lot of these tandem boat trailers have an 8400ish axle rating, then they load the trailer with a boat that pushes the load to 8000lbs on the axles (G23 or M235 type boat). That load is pushing it on that axle setup. If we are talking about a VLX or 23 LSV (or something considerably lighter like that), then yes, a tandem is absolutely plenty rugged and stable. For the heavier boats, A 12000+lb triaxle setup is definitely going to handle it better. Not to mention, a triaxle is going to better stabilize the fore and aft weight transfer when hitting dips, or bumps, in the road, and help to keep tongue weight from spiking as high with road variations and during braking.

Same goes for the lighter boats....... why have a tandem axle for a 6000lb boat and trailer combo, when you can have them build you a single axle that will carry it.....

There is also nothing that says you can't do a heavier rated tandem setup, and get the same advantages........ but then we'd have to run ugly wheels, and we don't want to do that 

Edited April 16, 2017 by TenTwentyOne

[billjames]

3 minutes ago, tjklein said:

A lot 1/2 ton trucks pull the heavy boats okay.  If you weight everything correctly or have bags in the rear it actually tows them okay for the most part.  

What a 1/2 ton won't do nearly as well is stop a heavy load.  Everyone talks about towing in terms of pulling, but one of the biggest differences I noticed was in stopping/slowing down.  You don't want a light truck for that and nothing on a 1/2 ton comes close to the brake system on a 3/4 ton truck (especially if it has an exhaust brake)

And yes...no one needs a 3/4 ton diesel.  :-)  It's overkill.

Agree, pulling is not an issue on modern 1/2 as long as you beefed up the rear. Stopping is another story with surge break, make sure you have enough safety distance at all time.

[jjackkrash]

46 minutes ago, tjklein said:

And yes...no one needs a 3/4 ton diesel.  :-)  It's overkill.

I'd say drive them both before getting a gasser if you are looking at 2500s.  I had a 2010 gasser with the 6.0 and yes it would pull the loads I pull, but it also would scream at you the whole time.  Gassers just make their power in a different part of the RPM range.  Both my '13 and '16 Duramax/Allison are so much smoother and quieter and just better driving trucks than the gasser, that it would be hard for me to go back to a gasser.    

Edited April 16, 2017 by jjackkrash

[MLBurns]

If you don't pull very far it shouldn't be a problem, but the same could be said for wearing a seatbelt. Probably be fine but you never know when someone will pull out in front of you.

[tjklein]

44 minutes ago, jjackkrash said:

I'd say drive them both before getting a gasser if you are looking at 2500s.  I had a 2010 gasser with the 6.0 and yes it would pull the loads I pull, but it also would scream at you the whole time.  Gassers just make their power in a different part of the RPM range.  Both my '13 and '16 Duramax/Allison are so much smoother and quieter and just better driving trucks than the gasser, that it would be hard for me to go back to a gasser.    

Agreed.  I test drove the gasser just to compare it to the Duramax.  It was a very short test drive.  :-)  The Duramax/Allison combo is just that good.

 

[jjackkrash]

32 minutes ago, tjklein said:

Agreed.  I test drove the gasser just to compare it to the Duramax.  It was a very short test drive.  :-)  The Duramax/Allison combo is just that good.

 

When I brought the '13 home, I took my wife for a test drive, and she told me she was glad I did not get a "clackity-clackity diesel."  I'm like, "no clackity clackity," but its a diesel!  The '16 is even better.  The new ones are so quiet, smooth and powerful its silly.  

[oldjeep]

curious how many of you have compared the brakes on a modern half ton with a modern 3/4 ton.  Having changed them on both (rams) there isn't much difference any more in terms of braking area or rotor thickness.  In terms of curb weight there is about a 300lb difference between a 1500 & 2500 gasser crew cab, adding the Cummins makes it an 850lb difference.    Not saying that there are not valid reasons for a bigger truck, but there isn't as much difference in brakes and weight as some think.

Edited April 16, 2017 by oldjeep

[tjklein]

35 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

curious how many of you have compared the brakes on a modern half ton with a modern 3/4 ton.  Having changed them on both (rams) there isn't much difference any more in terms of braking area or rotor thickness.  In terms of curb weight there is about a 300lb difference between a 1500 & 2500 gasser crew cab, adding the Cummins makes it an 850lb difference.    Not saying that there are not valid reasons for a bigger truck, but there isn't as much difference in brakes and weight as some think.

 

I've only compared the Chevy/GM stuff, but there's a substantial difference between the 2014 1/2 ton and the 2016 3/4 ton.  You also have to factor in the transmission 'braking' and the exhaust brake on the Allison, but like I said the brake are certainly beefier on the 3/4 ton.  Full disclaimer I can't speak for the 3/4 gasser's brakes, but I would think they're the same or very similar.

[spikew919]

1 hour ago, oldjeep said:

curious how many of you have compared the brakes on a modern half ton with a modern 3/4 ton.  Having changed them on both (rams) there isn't much difference any more in terms of braking area or rotor thickness.  In terms of curb weight there is about a 300lb difference between a 1500 & 2500 gasser crew cab, adding the Cummins makes it an 850lb difference.    Not saying that there are not valid reasons for a bigger truck, but there isn't as much difference in brakes and weight as some think.

Diameter of rotors, just 1/2" of extra diameter means a lot, prolly wouldn't notice  without measuring. But the 3/4 tons is definitely larger. 

[WAwinegrapes]

2 hours ago, oldjeep said:

curious how many of you have compared the brakes on a modern half ton with a modern 3/4 ton.  Having changed them on both (rams) there isn't much difference any more in terms of braking area or rotor thickness.  In terms of curb weight there is about a 300lb difference between a 1500 & 2500 gasser crew cab, adding the Cummins makes it an 850lb difference.    Not saying that there are not valid reasons for a bigger truck, but there isn't as much difference in brakes and weight as some think.

Everything is bigger when comparing a 250 to a 150, same when comparing a 350 to a 250.  Dana 44 on a 150, Dana 60 on a 250 and Dana 80 in 1 ton applications.  That is NOT ALWAYS the case, but in most.

 The frame is heavier and wider,  brakes are bigger,  and the 250 weighs approx 1000 pounds more than the 150.  A 350 weighs about 1000 pounds more than a 250.

a 4X4 150 curb weight is about 5000, a 250 is about 6000 and a 350 is about 7000.

That is for Fords.   and gas engines.  although not sure if you gat a 350 with a gas engine!  Gotta think that the other truck makers would follow suit!

Remember pi are squared. so when increasing the diameter, that 1/2 inch or inch is really doubled.

When Malibu increased that shaft diameter from 1 inch to 1 1/8 inch.  That increased the cross sectional area of that shaft nearly 25%.  You would not think an increase of 1/8 would make such a huge difference, but it did.

Edited April 16, 2017 by WAwinegrapes

[jjackkrash]

At least with the Chevys I don't think there is much difference between a 2500 and 3500 unless you get a dually 3500.  IIRC, its just and extra leaf spring and stiffer torsion bars that are different in SRW models, other than that, its pretty much the same truck.  

[oldjeep]

2 hours ago, WAwinegrapes said:

Everything is bigger when comparing a 250 to a 150, same when comparing a 350 to a 250.  Dana 44 on a 150, Dana 60 on a 250 and Dana 80 in 1 ton applications.  That is NOT ALWAYS the case, but in most.

 The frame is heavier and wider,  brakes are bigger,  and the 250 weighs approx 1000 pounds more than the 150.  A 350 weighs about 1000 pounds more than a 250.

a 4X4 150 curb weight is about 5000, a 250 is about 6000 and a 350 is about 7000.

That is for Fords.   and gas engines.  although not sure if you gat a 350 with a gas engine!  Gotta think that the other truck makers would follow suit!

Remember pi are squared. so when increasing the diameter, that 1/2 inch or inch is really doubled.

When Malibu increased that shaft diameter from 1 inch to 1 1/8 inch.  That increased the cross sectional area of that shaft nearly 25%.  You would not think an increase of 1/8 would make such a huge difference, but it did.

dana 60 and Dana 44?  We're not talking about trucks from the 80's. My last jeep had a 60 rear and 44 front, both are smaller than what comes in a modern 1/2 ton.

And my examples are Rams, fords have always been more lightly built (but still fine)

 

Fwiw, rotor diameter diff on the ram 1500 vs 2500 is 7mm, hub diameter is bigger on the 2500 so the effective surface area is about the same.

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by oldjeep

[WAwinegrapes]

1 hour ago, oldjeep said:

dana 60 and Dana 44?  We're not talking about trucks from the 80's. My last jeep had a 60 rear and 44 front, both are smaller than what comes in a modern 1/2 ton.

And my examples are Rams, fords have always been more lightly built (but still fine)

 

Fwiw, rotor diameter diff on the ram 1500 vs 2500 is 7mm, hub diameter is bigger on the 2500 so the effective surface area is about the same.

 

DANA 44 SPECS & INFORMATION

The Dana-Spicer model 44 is one of, if not the most mass produced (and widely popular) automotive axles ever brought to market. It has been produced as both a front and rear end in solid axle and independent front suspension variations throughout decades of production. The differential first appeared in the 1940s and remains in use today by select automakers. Due to the extent of its applications, the Dana 44 has been produced in a number of shapes, sizes, and spline counts. In all applications, the Dana 44 is a semi floating axle with either an 8.5 or 8.9 inch ring gear.  Same for the Dana 60 and 80, remains in use today by select automakers.

All 3 differentials have various models, including a solid and independent front and rear suspensions for the dana 44.

If there is no difference, why not build just one?   If they are the same, Dodge would build a 1500 OR a 2500, but not both.  Pretty sure the curb weight of the 2500 is more than the 1500.  And part of that added wight would be  bigger frame, bigger brakes, etc.

[shadetreefab]

2017 ram crew cab short bed 4x4

1500

curb weight 5,280 , tow max 10,800

2500 hemi 6,200 tow 15,600

2500 cummins 7,100 

[nyryan2001]

13 hours ago, MadMan said:

You were just added to my ignore list.

Cheers.

Towing a 2000 23 LSV, you likely fall into the no experience category with a 5500lb tow.

[WAwinegrapes]

3 hours ago, shadetreefab said:

2017 ram crew cab short bed 4x4

1500

curb weight 5,280 , tow max 10,800

2500 hemi 6,200 tow 15,600

2500 cummins 7,100 

Thanks, 

I knew Ford and Dodge would be about the same.  And that the frame, brakes, etc are all bigger and heavier duty  going from a 1500 to a 2500.

Have a 2007 Ford Harley and looking at a new truck. Neighbors who have been life time Fordsters have switched to Dodges.  So I am gonna look at them later this year.

[23LSVOwner]

On 4/15/2017 at 0:49 PM, Pnwrider said:

I don't get why they aren't putting electric brakes on these trailers instead of crappy surge brakes. Would make backing down a ramp with a heavy boat a lot safer. I've been in the situation a few times in my 3/4 ton when helping a buddy launch his commercial trawler. Make sure it's straight and hang on for the ride down. Usually can stop once the boat hits the water.

To op, I wouldn't buy a new rig in your situation. I would use your current truck, rent a truck if yours won't get it done, or better yet, make your dealer come get it. You spent enough money after all...

Pretty sure electric over hydraulic brakes are an option.

Edited April 17, 2017 by 23LSVOwner
typos-sausage fingers

[Falko]

A good friend of mine tows a large cruiser around ~27'. He switched his brakes to electric over hydraulic system for the control aspect. He can brake the trailer by itself like you'd do with a full electric system. He tows a lot though, so it is important for him. 

As for brakes in trucks, it is more than just rotor size, caliper pistons, master cylinder design, etc. all have a pretty big impact on performance. My old GMT800 suffers from lack of braking, but I plan to upgrade to GMT900 brakes this summer. The rotor is a 1/2" bigger and the calipers are different and the braking ability is much better. It's a lot of what you don't see, as with many things automotive.

To the OP, if you are just pulling across the street, I wouldn't worry about it. Your halfer should do just fine, just keep the speed under control and leave some space for braking. I used to tow my 7500# aft cabin around Fla with a '97 Ram 1500. Never had an issue, towed and braked just fine. The newer trucks are heads and shoulders above that old girl. Just be smart.

[MadMan]

3 hours ago, Falko said:

To the OP, if you are just pulling across the street, I wouldn't worry about it. Your halfer should do just fine, just keep the speed under control and leave some space for braking. I used to tow my 7500# aft cabin around Fla with a '97 Ram 1500. Never had an issue, towed and braked just fine. The newer trucks are heads and shoulders above that old girl. Just be smart.

I agree, I used to tow an 8000# enclosed trailer with a 1/2 ton.  Braking was never the problem, the trailer brakes stop the trailer.  The anxious moments were at 70+ mph, passing semi's, the trailer gets kicked out, and the tail starts wagin' the dog.  

Edited April 17, 2017 by MadMan

[potterm]

My 1/2 ton Tundra had no problems on the 30 mile twisty and steep Arkansas highway I took it on today.  Felt just like my 23 LSV for stopping and minimal change for acceleration.  Triple axles and reasonable tongue weight must make a big difference.

[Fman]

58 minutes ago, potterm said:

My 1/2 ton Tundra had no problems on the 30 mile twisty and steep Arkansas highway I took it on today.  Felt just like my 23 LSV for stopping and minimal change for acceleration.  Triple axles and reasonable tongue weight must make a big difference.

The Tundra can tow the space shuttle... I have been pleasantly surprised with my Tundra towing my lsv.  The 5.7L is getting it done with no problems.

And great looking M235!

[carguy79ta]

if you have to pull any distance get a diesel.  I just got a 13 Ram diesel.  it will pull my new RI just fine.  I also pulled a 11k skidsteer and trailer no probs.  A diesel isn't for everyone but I love mine. my 1500 silverado.. I put it in 4low pulling up the ramp with my 4000 lb axis A22.

[jjackkrash]

2 minutes ago, carguy79ta said:

if you have to pull any distance get a diesel.  I just got a 13 Ram diesel.  it will pull my new RI just fine.  I also pulled a 11k skidsteer and trailer no probs.  A diesel isn't for everyone but I love mine. my 1500 silverado.. I put it in 4low pulling up the ramp with my 4000 lb axis A22.

My daily is a 2016 Duramax.  It was a 2013 Duramax before that.  I just can't see going back to a gasser for any reason.  It is so nice not worrying about what I can or can't tow safely, including my boat, travel trailer, equipment trailer, and 14K dump trailer.  

Not just for towing either.  I love driving my diesel loaded and empty, around town, or on the highway.  I've got a little convertible go cart (M3) in the garage when I want crush some twisties, but, other than than, I just love driving my diesel and choose to drive it to work over the little car on most days.  

[carguy79ta]

yeah I am going to do full deletes on my Ram  2500 and get a 150hp tune that ought to add about 300 ft.lbs. have 35s and a leveling kit.  is an awesome truck.  I looked at Duramax since I am a GM guy but they were about 5g higher and my racecar builder reccommended the Cummins.  wellll..better cummin than strokin...lol