Tesla Drivetrain?

[RTS]

Also...I doubt a boat manufacturer (low volume) will have the political clout to 'rob' other boat manufacturers in the form of carbon offsets from the gov't that is a big part of Teslas bottom line, currently.  Even though that bottom line still sucks.  I just don't get the fascination with Tesla.  They've yet to make a dime, they sell products 99.9% of people can not afford or do not want, yet I think I read somewhere their market cap makes them the most valuable car company in America?  Makes no sense to me.

[WAwinegrapes]

8 minutes ago, RTS said:

Also...I doubt a boat manufacturer (low volume) will have the political clout to 'rob' other boat manufacturers in the form of carbon offsets from the gov't that is a big part of Teslas bottom line, currently.  Even though that bottom line still sucks.  I just don't get the fascination with Tesla.  They've yet to make a dime, they sell products 99.9% of people can not afford or do not want, yet I think I read somewhere their market cap makes them the most valuable car company in America?  Makes no sense to me.

It is the herd mentality.  The stock is headed north not on solid fundamentals, but  because someone is buying and those around do not want to be left out!

[sunvalleylaw]

Hmm.  To become profitable, Tesla (or any eventual competitors) will need people to vote with their dollars.  Certainly the battery issue is a huge thing, and there are environmental costs.  But research costs money.  For people to choose with their dollars to motivate investment in the technology is not so bad, IMO.  I do recognize there are many issues to overcome.  And @Slurpee brings up some interesting points and some interesting transportation alternatives.  There will be a difference between urban areas and rural as well.  

I do hope a boat comes at some point, or some other alternative energy source that is cleaner than what we do now.  Hmm. Wind powered boat?  Oh wait, we have those.  But you can't ski the course with them.

Edited April 14, 2017 by sunvalleylaw

[IdahoAxis]

38 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Where I see E-Vehicle in the future.  The FAR future is fleets of vehicles available on a subscription basis.  Think the taxi/uber industry as a template.  Just pay your subscription and the cars are there to get you and take you wherever you need to go when you need it.  Want your own Tesla.  Sure.  But want a Cadillac for date night, and a regular comfortable sedan for the commute, and a van for vacation.  Self-Driving e-vehicles will maximize the actual benefits of a battery vehicle and put them in an infrastructure where a managing corporation can afford to make the maintenance practical.

Already moving that direction, at least the financial portion. $1500/month gets you access to all Cadillacs in their new pilot program: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-tests-netflix-for-cars-program-for-cadillacs-at-1500-a-month-2017-03-20

[Slurpee]

5 minutes ago, IdahoAxis said:

Already moving that direction, at least the financial portion. $1500/month gets you access to all Cadillacs in their new pilot program: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-tests-netflix-for-cars-program-for-cadillacs-at-1500-a-month-2017-03-20

Yup, I got that newsletter.  It's what I was recalling when I wrote the post.  An issue in IEEE Spectrum a couple months back mentioned the same type of concept.  It's going to be interesting in the future.  There's been some really interesting break throughs in fuel cell technology lately as well.  That's another really interesting technology.  That one has drawbacks to of course, but I think it's got more legs in the power sports world.

[JeffC]

1 hour ago, WAwinegrapes said:

Just how heavy is the battery that you want to exchange?  The battery in the Prius is 120#, and there is still the engine as a means of propulson.  The Chevy Volt, a true EV car, the battery weighs 450#.

I guess you'll need a hoist or crane to swap it out.

Dont get me wrong, I am personally not interested in a boat that will run 3 ski sets and then be out of commission for 4-5 hours (per the Nautique video), any more than I was interested in a $70K+ car that could go 200-250 miles before needing a charge.   I have a friend in Seattle who has a model S, and it works for him, as he uses it solely as a commuter car.   I on the other hand frequently drive 300+ miles at a time, so I found it to be impractical UNLESS there was a battery swap alternative... So I bought an A6.    Love it.  I can "recharge" (refuel) that car essentially anywhere, anytime.    For me, the logistics and economics of a pure electric car just dont work.   Living in Colorado, I probably have spotted a couple dozen model S... all but a handful have been on a flatbed. 

While the torque of an electric motor for a boat seems attractive, my days on the lake are long... early morning until at least mid afternoon, and usually a full day.   A boat that will run anything short of that really has no interest from me - unless there was a way to rapid charge (read that minutes, not hours) or exchange the battery - which as you accurately pointed out is not terribly practical.   Even if you could fashion a way to do it, I would think you would want the CG as low in the boat as you could get it, which would further complicate the exchange. 

I would also be interested in knowing what happens when you submerge such a battery... Somehow I would not think that would be a good thing.

Personally, I think we are a long way from pervasive electric cars, and even further away from pervasive electric boats.   To me it is novel, but not terribly practical technology, at least not yet.

[sunvalleylaw]

@JeffC , I, like you, do not see the Teslas as practical for me yet.  I am out in the middle of Idaho.  I am hoping to keep my Passat TDI wagon running long enough that the batteries will improve some more, and the infrastructure needed such as filling stations well within range with margin for error can fill in.  The mountains, plains, and high deserts of Idaho are no place to be stranded.  Particularly in winter.  I wish public transportation was more viable where I live too.  But I live in a ski resort.  We do have a decent bus system, and I commute some by bike.  eBikes make up the new controversy on our multi-user paths.  But sometimes I have to go to court, carry more stuff than I can handle on a bike or bus, etc.

So, for now, my own vehicle is most practical.  I am hoping all advances in transportation advance.  The seaboards and urban areas have different solutions available to them than the intermountain west, etc.  So I hope some of the stuff @Slurpee is talking about comes to pass, along with fully electric individual vehicles for when you need them.  And then boats too.  

[Zac]

1 hour ago, Slurpee said:

No and Not really.  Batteries have a shelf life and they have a cycle life.  Think of them as fancy ink cartridges if it helps.  Keeping them at peak ability is impossible because every use (cycle) will degrade them just a tad.  It's no different in that respect to the Lead cells we use now.  They're gonna get replaced every few years.  And can you imagine how much effort its gonna take to get that cell out.  Imagine removing your existing gas tank every 3 years (while full of dangerous fuel).  Yikes.  Not a home project.  And if it were standard large format cells the maintenance is a pain.  It's like having 50 lead acid batteries all wired together.  That you constantly have to keep balanced with extra hardware.  It's a maintenance nightmare that I've lived through.

And as for positive environmental impact?  Well, the energy footprint needed to mine the very rare raw materials needed for these cells is quite high.  At the end of the day the environmental cost to make a cell is very high and only creates a positive impact when used 100% through it's life.  Letting it sit around a lot creates a negative impact.  That's why the biggest benefit is in electrical grids, commercial transit, etc.  Those are maximum utilization scenarios.  

Again, I'm all for battery development and utilization.  There is however a MASSIVE amount of problems with making it something practical and safe.  I get on my soap box about it a lot.  I'm sorry.  The things we are exposed to daily with batteries make it seem so easy and wonderful.  That doesn't hold true while you scale up to something like a vehicle.

Where I see E-Vehicle in the future.  The FAR future is fleets of vehicles available on a subscription basis.  Think the taxi/uber industry as a template.  Just pay your subscription and the cars are there to get you and take you wherever you need to go when you need it.  Want your own Tesla.  Sure.  But want a Cadillac for date night, and a regular comfortable sedan for the commute, and a van for vacation.  Self-Driving e-vehicles will maximize the actual benefits of a battery vehicle and put them in an infrastructure where a managing corporation can afford to make the maintenance practical.

So, the answer was actually yes and yes.  I used the word 'essentially' maintenance free.  Vehicle batteries currently last longer than 3 years but if I have to take a boat to the dealer once every 3 years to have the battery replaced i'd call that essentially (more likely it will last 6-7 years by the time electric boats roll out mainstream). I can live with that. 

And the environmental part isn't perfect. It, like the battery life and ability, will continue to improve with time and it is better than what we currently do with fossil fuels. 

Personally I'd rather see progress pushed than continuing with the way it is or having the attitude that things can't possibly get better than where they are currently.  This is a fun time to be alive, life is better than it ever has been and its mostly because of progress (electric vehicles is one small example). 

[sunvalleylaw]

^^^

I like that positive attitude.  Easy to watch too much news on TV or the interwebz and forget how good life really is now.

[RTS]

To quote Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Reserach, Musk "definitely goes where there is government money".....he further states...."great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."   

Is the government cutoff coming under this or the next administration...ever...I don't know?  Did Musk benefit from ideology of previous admin?   I'd say yes.  All I know is he is making no money with Tesla, Solar City and whatever else he has going on....rockets, I think....even with billions from the gov't (i.e. you and me).

P.S.  I felt forced to include references to our government to make my point...please don't turn this into a political debate.  I'm just stating where a large portion of Teslas income comes from (gov't subsidies) and there are large, inherent risks to that business model.

I'll go through the latest 10k when I get a chance...but don't have time now.

Edited April 14, 2017 by RTS

[sunvalleylaw]

1 hour ago, RTS said:

To quote Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Reserach, Musk "definitely goes where there is government money".....he further states...."great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."   

Is the government cutoff coming under this or the next administration...ever...I don't know?  Did Musk benefit from ideology of previous admin?   I'd say yes.  All I know is he is making no money with Tesla, Solar City and whatever else he has going on....rockets, I think....even with billions from the gov't (i.e. you and me).

P.S.  I felt forced to include references to our government to make my point...please don't turn this into a political debate.  I'm just stating where a large portion of Teslas income comes from (gov't subsidies) and there are large, inherent risks to that business model.

I'll go through the latest 10k when I get a chance...but don't have time now.

How about farmers?  NASA never turned a profit (I know it is not a private business) but we got a lot of good tech out of that.  

Or how about any of these guys with their state subsidies?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/03/17/the-united-states-of-subsidies-the-biggest-corporate-winners-in-each-state/?utm_term=.f638d3de10bf

Lots of information on corporations receiving assistance here:  http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/subsidy-tracker

Not necessarily political.  but just pointing out that Tesla is not alone in receiving benefits.

I uploaded a chart from one of the sources on that goodjobsfirst site.  Lots of energy companies, general motors, etc. And banks get their fair share.

"The biggest aggregate bailout recipient is Bank of America, whose gross borrowing (with rollover loans but excluding repayments) is just under $3.5 trillion, including the amounts for its Merrill Lynch and Countrywide Financial acquisitions. Three other banks are in the trillion-dollar club: Citigroup ($2.6 trillion), Morgan Stanley ($2.1 trillion) and JPMorgan Chase ($1.3 trillion, including Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual)."

Not saying any of this should not happen.  But I don't think Tesla needs to be singled out.  

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by sunvalleylaw

[RTS]

Never said Tesla was alone in having the gov't subsidize their bottom line...which is anemic and no where near worthy of their market cap.   If I did, please show me where.  

And I guess I kind of 'singled them out' because they are the freakin' topic of this thread!  Start a thread on Duke Energy or 'farmers' or NASA and we can go from there!

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by RTS

[sunvalleylaw]

29 minutes ago, RTS said:

Never said Tesla was alone in having the gov't subsidize their bottom line...which is anemic and no where near worthy of their market cap.   If I did, please show me where.  

And I guess I kind of 'singled them out' because they are the freakin' topic of this thread!  Start a thread on Duke Energy or 'farmers' or NASA and we can go from there!

 

 

 

1 hour ago, RTS said:

To quote Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Reserach, Musk "definitely goes where there is government money".....he further states...."great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."   

Is the government cutoff coming under this or the next administration...ever...I don't know?  Did Musk benefit from ideology of previous admin?   I'd say yes.  All I know is he is making no money with Tesla, Solar City and whatever else he has going on....rockets, I think....even with billions from the gov't (i.e. you and me).

P.S.  I felt forced to include references to our government to make my point...please don't turn this into a political debate.  I'm just stating where a large portion of Teslas income comes from (gov't subsidies) and there are large, inherent risks to that business model.

I'll go through the latest 10k when I get a chance...but don't have time now.

Well, it seemed to me that the "government money" was a large basis of your criticism, and that "[You] felt forced to include references to our government to make [your] point" .  Rather than something about the technology.  At least in your post I was referencing.  Perhaps I misunderstood your point. Anyway, I won't go further down this road.  Sorry to offend.  

I still hope it works, or some other cleaner way of propelling vehicles, land, water and air, is developed.  

Edited April 15, 2017 by sunvalleylaw

[RTS]

No worries...

[WAwinegrapes]

3 hours ago, JeffC said:

Dont get me wrong, I am personally not interested in a boat that will run 3 ski sets and then be out of commission for 4-5 hours (per the Nautique video), any more than I was interested in a $70K+ car that could go 200-250 miles before needing a charge.   I have a friend in Seattle who has a model S, and it works for him, as he uses it solely as a commuter car.   I on the other hand frequently drive 300+ miles at a time, so I found it to be impractical UNLESS there was a battery swap alternative... So I bought an A6.    Love it.  I can "recharge" (refuel) that car essentially anywhere, anytime.    For me, the logistics and economics of a pure electric car just dont work.   Living in Colorado, I probably have spotted a couple dozen model S... all but a handful have been on a flatbed. 

While the torque of an electric motor for a boat seems attractive, my days on the lake are long... early morning until at least mid afternoon, and usually a full day.   A boat that will run anything short of that really has no interest from me - unless there was a way to rapid charge (read that minutes, not hours) or exchange the battery - which as you accurately pointed out is not terribly practical.   Even if you could fashion a way to do it, I would think you would want the CG as low in the boat as you could get it, which would further complicate the exchange. 

I would also be interested in knowing what happens when you submerge such a battery... Somehow I would not think that would be a good thing.

Personally, I think we are a long way from pervasive electric cars, and even further away from pervasive electric boats.   To me it is novel, but not terribly practical technology, at least not yet.

Yes!  the introduction of water to a high amp source is not good.  I like the battery  technology, and innovations, but don't see batteries as the leader of the pack.

The EV cars work great if you have  a regular commute every day.

We will continue our addiction to dino juice (hydrocarbons), specially since there are more known oil reserves than ever before.  Interesting books and articles about abiotic oil, makes oil attractive for quite a few years.

[minnmarker]

4 hours ago, sunvalleylaw said:

Wind powered boat?  Oh wait, we have those.  But you can't ski the course with them.

Bringing this back to boats...

I have skied behind a sail boat. Long time ago. A-scow on a broad reach in a good wind. Wrapped the rope around a winch and one of the crew slowly increased the tail tension.

[sunvalleylaw]

38 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

Bringing this back to boats...

I have skied behind a sail boat. Long time ago. A-scow on a broad reach in a good wind. Wrapped the rope around a winch and one of the crew slowly increased the tail tension.

That's awesome!

[Sixball]

May 9 2013 New Zealand's  America's cup challenger sail boat 50.8 MPH.  Technology!   Now you could foot behind that. Maybe not I just bet it was not on glass!

   

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Sixball

[WAwinegrapes]

4 hours ago, sunvalleylaw said:

How about farmers?  NASA never turned a profit (I know it is not a private business) but we got a lot of good tech out of that.  

Or how about any of these guys with their state subsidies?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/03/17/the-united-states-of-subsidies-the-biggest-corporate-winners-in-each-state/?utm_term=.f638d3de10bf

Lots of information on corporations receiving assistance here:  http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/subsidy-tracker

Not necessarily political.  but just pointing out that Tesla is not alone in receiving benefits.

I uploaded a chart from one of the sources on that goodjobsfirst site.  Lots of energy companies, general motors, etc. And banks get their fair share.

"The biggest aggregate bailout recipient is Bank of America, whose gross borrowing (with rollover loans but excluding repayments) is just under $3.5 trillion, including the amounts for its Merrill Lynch and Countrywide Financial acquisitions. Three other banks are in the trillion-dollar club: Citigroup ($2.6 trillion), Morgan Stanley ($2.1 trillion) and JPMorgan Chase ($1.3 trillion, including Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual)."

Not saying any of this should not happen.  But I don't think Tesla needs to be singled out.  

 

Where do us farmers belly up to the corporate money trough?  Doesn't everyone like to eat? and have a nice bottle of wine along with your meal? ha ha

[sunvalleylaw]

41 minutes ago, WAwinegrapes said:

Where do us farmers belly up to the corporate money trough?  Doesn't everyone like to eat? and have a nice bottle of wine along with your meal? ha ha

I love WA Wine grapes.  Less enraptured with GMO corn.  I don't eat corn if I can help it. Give me kale, greens of every kind, lots of different colored vegetables, fruits, etc.  I prefer locally sourced if possible.  But I can't always afford to do that.  But rarely do I want corn.  and yes, I am a Neil Young fan.   

 

But, really, @minnmarker wanted to talk about the possibilities of electric power.  Not talk about subsidies.  WAWineGrapes, are you near Walla Walla?  I used to love to go to a wine fest in the Tri-Cities with my wife a long time ago.  A buddy of mine who can spend more on wine than I do brings over some nice Cayuse each winter.  Not everyone likes it, but I enjoyed his Bionic Frog.  I don't pretend to be much more than a wine cretin though.  I prefer Cab, Zin, or heartier red blends.

Edited April 15, 2017 by sunvalleylaw

[WAwinegrapes]

12 hours ago, sunvalleylaw said:

I love WA Wine grapes.  Less enraptured with GMO corn.  I don't eat corn if I can help it. Give me kale, greens of every kind, lots of different colored vegetables, fruits, etc.  I prefer locally sourced if possible.  But I can't always afford to do that.  But rarely do I want corn.  and yes, I am a Neil Young fan.   

 

But, really, @minnmarker wanted to talk about the possibilities of electric power.  Not talk about subsidies.  WAWineGrapes, are you near Walla Walla?  I used to love to go to a wine fest in the Tri-Cities with my wife a long time ago.  A buddy of mine who can spend more on wine than I do brings over some nice Cayuse each winter.  Not everyone likes it, but I enjoyed his Bionic Frog.  I don't pretend to be much more than a wine cretin though.  I prefer Cab, Zin, or heartier red blends.

NOt in Walla Walla, but I have been there many times, even visiting the STate Pen.  I am located in Sunnyside, WA. about an hour from Tri Cities.  Within the Yakima AVA.  We  grow a few varieties including Chardonney, Merlot, Cab, and Sangiovese.  Although the Sangiovese days may be numbered and replaced with another variety!

When passing thru, give me a call.  We can further delve into the world of GMO and corn over a bottle or 2 of some thick chewey Cabernet or Melot.  I'll serve the corn as a side dish!  ha ha

ANd yes, when WA competes against other areas and States, WE/WA typically ends up with the blue ribbon.

[BLSousa]

The rough, round numbers in battery storage, weight and useful run time are:

In a boat 1 gallon of gas is roughly equivalent to a 10 KWH battery. 

Battery pack would weigh ~ 15 pounds per KWH (Current technology)

20 gallon equivalent:  You would need a ~200 KWH battery to equal 20 gallons of gas.  The battery would weigh ~ 3000 lbs.  Weight difference from a gas engine would be ~2500 additional pounds. 

40 gallon equivalent:  You would need a ~400 KWH battery to equal 40 gallons of gas.  The battery would weigh ~ 6000 lbs.  Weight difference from a gas engine would be ~5400 additional pounds. 

A charging station at a marina would be able to recharge 3 boats at a time to ~150KWH in ~1/2 hr. (Current tech with 2 battery packs and 2 chargers). Chargers that are just starting distribution would recharge 3 boats at a time to ~250KWH in ~1/2 hr.

Thats a lot of weight to be pulling around on a trailer. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by BLSousa
Typo

[WAwinegrapes]

1 gallon of gas is approx 110,000 btu.  converting that 1 gallon of gas to kwh is 32.2 kwh

[RTS]

2 hours ago, BLSousa said:

 

Thats a lot of weight to be pulling around on a trailer. 

Meh....nothing an F-150 with an ecoboost couldn't handle. 

[BLSousa]

40 minutes ago, WAwinegrapes said:

1 gallon of gas is approx 110,000 btu.  converting that 1 gallon of gas to kwh is 32.2 kwh

Regular gas engines can be about 33% efficient.   Which accounts for the difference between the theoretical stored energy of a gallon of gas and the captured energy in an internal combustion engine.  This takes the 32.2 KWH down to ~10 KWH number.

Think of it in regards to a Tesla.  The car is 4500-5000 lbs. with sports car aerodynamics.  At freeway speeds that would yield very roughly 30 mpg if using a gas engine.  For a rough comparable, the Cadillac CTS is ~4000 lbs and gets up to 30 mpg on the highway (per Cadillac specs.)    Per Tesla specs a Tesla can go up to 270 miles on 90 KWH of battery stored electricity.  This equates to roughly 3 miles per KWH.  ~3 miles/KWH for electric and ~30 miles per gallon for gas.  That results in 10KWH of battery energy being roughly equivalent to 1 gallon of gas.