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M235 first day EPIC FAIL


potterm

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19 hours ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

That's because every nut, bolt, push pin, christmas tree, wire clip, whatever is either automatically placed and installed being verified by revolution count and torque spec. And then verified by robotic inspect to meet spec or minimum presence. All of the is done automatically. Zero human interaction.

If a product is installed by humans the product is automatically verified to meet spec, or at minimum presence by robotic measuring systems. Also the line will stop at the station if an operator installs 9 of 10 bolts or what that step is. Those systems know exactly what variant the truck is so it knows whether or not it needs ten bolts, two or none. So comparing cars/trucks to boats is not relevant at all. The processes are soooooooo far apart. 

Did not find anything in my nautique at delivery. I do not know if the dealer removed the mess or someone at the factory did. By the way I did find nothing either in my F150 at delivery. Same, do not know who remove the stuff as apparently, you must have some according to the malibu crew :)

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59 minutes ago, spikew919 said:

Moral of the whole story is, people at Malibu's plant and everywhere need to get back to having pride in their work. I have a business and am a bit of a perfectionist. If I were malibu I would want to hear these things and after the second time I hear the same worker leave clamps off, I would have a new worker the next day. And you can ask any of my guys that work along side me, I never tell anyone to do anything, I ask, and I will never ask anyone to do anything I won't or have not done myself. Just my 2 cents 

Exactly.   Anybody remember what cars were like in the 70's and early 80s?    Cars arrived at dealers literally with doors falling off, engines that stalled at traffic lights, latches that didnt work, and on and on.   The dealer network was the final QC step, and wound up having to fix all the new "defects".   My recollection is that is why JD Power invented the "Initial Quality Index".  I remember a mid 70s Chevelle that my fatjher bought.  After a few months of failed attempts by the dealer to get the car even close to acceptable, dad finally gave up and traded it in.  

Why did that happen?   At least what I have read was that there was an overwhelming focus on the corporate bottom line.   Line workers were not measured on quality, but on unit throughput.  Management and labor were in opposition - management didnt want to hear from the front line, and the front line no longer cared... as long as they punched the clock, they did what they were told even if it was flat out wrong.   You get what you measure.

By the way, I dont think cars and boats are comparable at all... they are different animals with very different manufacturing processes.   But a bad attitude (by labor or management of the company) will certainly effect the quality of the product.   It doesnt have to be pervasive either... one worker having a bad day (hungover, fight with spouse, etc) can impact the perceived quality of the brand when social media makes it possible to broadcast the news broadly with a few keystrokes. 

Maybe Malibu has a pervasive issue, maybe they dont.    I generally believe that angry people are way more vocal than happy people.  I probably am that way.  I have read an incredible amount of good things on Malibu, and know people who swear by them.   That tends to make me think that serious problems are the exception rather than the rule, but I will have some first hand experience soon enough...

BTW...

I.   Cant.   Wait.

 

Edited by JeffC
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27 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

I think you're forgetting about the "other" Malibu dealer.  There's one in Clear Lake that doesn't get much attention (or sell many boats!)

I had no idea it was there!  Thanks.  I'll stop in next time I drive up through Hudson.

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1 hour ago, TenTwentyOne said:

Except, this is an M235 we are talking about. There is no "Malibu is a little cheaper, so it's kind of acceptable", when we are talking about the most expensive 23'er out there.

As for the hose clamps..... I thought all raptor motors were closed cooled, in which case, there is no winterization of the heater system. In fact, loosening those clamps would be the last thing you would want to do in that case. Not saying the dealer shouldn't have caught it....... but at the same time, I don't think it is the dealers responsibility to take the boat half apart in order to double check the factory work. Had the boat been open cooled, and equipped with a heater, the tech would know to check that stuff.....That is not a prep at all. The dealer should be cleaning the inside, the parts of the bilge that are easily accessible, and cleaning up the gel, and fixing minor blemishes if there are any. Then they should water test, and verify operation of systems and options.

They shouldn't be expected to take half of the boat apart, check tightness on every screw and clamp, fix major gel screw ups, adjust the windshield, etc, etc.. I don't feel that is on the dealer at all. They should be cleaning, perfecting, and verifying operation. A dealer shouldn't be expected to be factory QC on top of that IMO.

All of which may be correct as to the heater plumb on a 2017, which is why I specifically hedged on that, but I do agree with you.  However, checking heater connections is hardly taking "half" the boat apart when prep already includes de-winterization.  I think it is absolutely dealer's responsibility to check every essential clamp (anything related to cooling system) before even starting, let alone delivering to a customer.  There's a lot that can happen on a 3000 mile drive or trip across the ocean.

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Just now, IXFE said:

This thread is making me nervous to take delivery of my '17 25 LSV (from a new dealer). I hope it's as good as my previous Malibus have been. 

Where are you in the Dallas area? Ride Grapevine at all?

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26 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

All of which may be correct as to the heater plumb on a 2017, which is why I specifically hedged on that, but I do agree with you.  However, checking heater connections is hardly taking "half" the boat apart when prep already includes de-winterization.  I think it is absolutely dealer's responsibility to check every essential clamp (anything related to cooling system) before even starting, let alone delivering to a customer.  There's a lot that can happen on a 3000 mile drive or trip across the ocean.

I guess that is where my opinion differs. I don't think a dealer should have to go through checking proper installation of the cooling system lines, especially when several of the clamps and components are not accessible without removing other components (especially on a closed cooled boat). I know this because I had a loose clamp issue on a new boat before, which stimulated me to do exactly what you suggest. I can say that I skipped about 1/3rd of the clamps, because I couldn't access them without taking other stuff apart.

That said, I do feel that it is the dealers responsibility to do a comprehensive water test and at least visually inspect all fittings for leaks and issues...... at least do the old engine compartment head stand inspection with a flash light while the boat is running.

   On the M235 heater, I am not sure....... when I crawled around in one, I did want to check out this dual heater setup, and see how it was done. I could be wrong, but if I remember right, the main heater is buried  in the helm behind the motorized pocket door assy, and some other stuff. I was not able to see it, and I believe it would take some disassembly to even visually inspect it correctly. I know that isn't the case in most Bu's, but it was just something I noted.

   Nonetheless, it is neither here, nor there. I don't disagree with you on this at all. I just don't feel that the dealer should have to spend quite as much time checking assembly of components that would be much easier to check when the boat is in the assembly process.

As much as I feel this is a stereotyped, and unfair statement......... I have been on multiple visits of the factories for the big 3, and it is not exactly rocket scientists putting these boats together. I'm sure there are well qualified, and trained individuals in certain parts of the assembly process, but a lot of the workforce is not highly trained "craftsman" of these 150k barges that we all love so much. They are  workhorses with a relatively low skill set, and that will work for fairly cheap wages. There are probably many of them that don't take a lot of pride in their work, or care about boating at all. Thing is, it would be hard for these boat manufacturers to find highly skilled, and dedicated assemblers, that want to work in an assembly line........ and actually be able to afford them, and stay competitive.

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Just to add my .02. 

I've owned 3 brand new SAN 230's, 2 Axis A22's, 1 Axis A24, 2 VLX's and 1 23 LSV and I have another 23 LSV on order.

I had issues and build problems with my nautique's - tower cracking, gel cracking, throttle positioning sensor and other engine components failing, problems with the LINK system, vinyl issues/seats popping at beads.   I also had some minor issues with my early A22's (2011 and 2012), which were purely vinyl related.   My VLX's and LSV were essentially perfect.  They never left me stranded, and had no vinyl, electrical or structural issues.  I think I may have found a cut zip tie or two in one of my VLX's, but that was it.

Hopefully, the issue with the OP's boat is easily identifiable and fixable.   Keep in mind that Malibu did not manufacture the engine or transmission in the OP's boat, and it sounds like it was running fine when he got it (which explains why it would have past factory lake testing and the dealer's testing).  If there is an issue with the drivetrain, which manifested itself shortly after the OP took the boat, that's not on Malibu.  People are quick to lay blame, but maybe we should wait to get the whole story before lighting the torches.

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36 minutes ago, IXFE said:

This thread is making me nervous to take delivery of my '17 25 LSV (from a new dealer). I hope it's as good as my previous Malibus have been. 

Great local dealer is essential with these boats.  Hope you new dealer treats you well.

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1 hour ago, IXFE said:

This thread is making me nervous to take delivery of my '17 25 LSV (from a new dealer). I hope it's as good as my previous Malibus have been. 

WSA is awesome if that's who you are dealing with.  Love those guys.

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1 hour ago, JeffC said:

 

Maybe Malibu has a pervasive issue, maybe they dont.    I generally believe that angry people are way more vocal than happy people.  I probably am that way.  I have read an incredible amount of good things on Malibu, and know people who swear by them.   That tends to make me think that serious problems are the exception rather than the rule, but I will have some first hand experience soon enough...

 

This is so true in LIFE... I was in service industry while in college... And this was preached... 100 people come in and all happy, 1 will tell some people about their great experience... 100 people come in and one dissatisfied.. the whole community will know.

I can also state that I was that I was called a liar and there was no way I had good service from my dealer here. 2 people on a board were bashing them and will continue to do so because they had bad service (or claim). Anybody that states otherwise, they will just out lash on them and state that it is not possible. 

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15 hours ago, potterm said:

Yes, I lost my cool because my 2015 23 LSV was so problematic.  A debris strike is a possibility for the vibration, although that would not explain the poor workmanship, the service required alert coming off and on a few minutes prior to the vibration starting, and the service hatch hitting me in the knee with any decent size wave I hit.  One of the reasons I went to the M was in hopes of better quality control after my last two boats.  My dealer takes care of me.  I've been quite happy with them.  I will update when I know more.  Let me review some of my LSV issues so you can understand where I am coming from (Service light coming on the first day I got it every few minutes and still not fixed after a year of warranty claims, multiple screen replacements, power wedge complete failure, retrofit surf band not working most of the time, stereo turning off and on spontaneously, Vdrive slipping due to hose coming off, and exhaust manifolds loose from factory fouling the 02 sensors.  The most bothersome was the service engine alarm that was never fully resolved.  So yes I lost my cool when within the few 2 hours of driving my new M235 the service light started coming on followed by the vibration and limping it back to the slip.  I'll keep you guys posted.

Sounds familiar.  I've had most of those problems with my '15 LSV.  I figure I've got over $20,000 in warranty work done on it in 200 hours of use -I haven't dare added it up.  And the dealer sucks.  Any little thing and I'm out at 20 + days.  If I bought a six-figure vehicle, they'd have me turned around in two at the most with a loaner.

I've tried Supra and Mastercraft.  I thought Malibu would be the last watersports boat I'd have to buy.  Tige?

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48 minutes ago, Chattwake said:

Just to add my .02. 

I've owned 3 brand new SAN 230's, 2 Axis A22's, 1 Axis A24, 2 VLX's and 1 23 LSV and I have another 23 LSV on order.

I had issues and build problems with my nautique's - tower cracking, gel cracking, throttle positioning sensor and other engine components failing, problems with the LINK system, vinyl issues/seats popping at beads.   I also had some minor issues with my early A22's (2011 and 2012), which were purely vinyl related.   My VLX's and LSV were essentially perfect.  They never left me stranded, and had no vinyl, electrical or structural issues.  I think I may have found a cut zip tie or two in one of my VLX's, but that was it.

Hopefully, the issue with the OP's boat is easily identifiable and fixable.   Keep in mind that Malibu did not manufacture the engine or transmission in the OP's boat, and it sounds like it was running fine when he got it (which explains why it would have past factory lake testing and the dealer's testing).  If there is an issue with the drivetrain, which manifested itself shortly after the OP took the boat, that's not on Malibu.  People are quick to lay blame, but maybe we should wait to get the whole story before lighting the torches.

Yeah you right, if I have an issue with a window on my truck I should not complain about Ford but talk to the sub sub contractor that makes the windows. That is the most stupid stuff I hear from a while. I hope you have not and will never work in manufacturing, value chain has been spread around the world the last 100 years with the globalization, I bet no one is building anything in house from scratch. Good companies choose their sub contractors or providers very carefully and have systems and processes in place to control quality at different levels up to customer service for after sales issues. Some other companies do not.......

Even Retailer do so now, look at Costco,  I bet if I bought something from them and it broke a little, they will reimburse me or try to exchange it and do not ask me to blame their sub contractors/providers.

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Malibu should offer a Kit...like those guys that build Replica Cobras buy.

Deliver everything in a bunch of boxes stacked up inside the hull on a trailer, then we could put the things together ourselves.  Charge half price or something.  

But seriously...I know I am late to this, but it sure sounds like an underwater strike to me.  You know, it is possible to get a chunk of wood or something lodged into a prop blade...then when you hit reverse at the dock to load up it comes loose.  That, and I am personally of the opinion that there is no way on earth to 'visually' inspect a prop for damage.  It takes such little damage to cause great vibration....the thing is spinning 600 RPM minimum in a pretty darn dense medium (water) displacing enough water to shove a 4000 boat through the water.  It doesn't take much to cause big vibrations.

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1 hour ago, TenTwentyOne said:

That said, I do feel that it is the dealers responsibility to do a comprehensive water test and at least visually inspect all fittings for leaks and issues...... at least do the old engine compartment head stand inspection with a flash light while the boat is running.

My dealer is an hour from fresh water.  They don't water test anything until you come back for the 3rd or 4th time.  A water test is like 4 hours of labor for two guys minimum.

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Yeper I don't want the dealer doing a water test on my boat if I don't know about it and I would like to be present.  Don't know about your area but in Mich. you have a lot of less the experienced kids working in many of the dealers. They just can't keep people on year round, not much going on at many of the shops in the winter. And yes it seems like a good time to get work done but how many folks what till the week before launch to take a boat in and also wish to have it done tomorrow! 

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Just now, Sixball said:

Yeper I don't want the dealer doing a water test on my boat if I don't know about it and I would like to be present.  Don't know about your area but in Mich. you have a lot of less the experienced kids working in many of the dealers. They just can't keep people on year round, not much going on at many of the shops in the winter. And yes it seems like a good time to get work done but how many folks what till the week before launch to take a boat in and also wish to have it done tomorrow! 

Spent my summers in college skiing on the Conway Chain.  It is where they water tested the Nautiques when they were being built at the Orange Avenue facility.  Let me tell you, those guys hammered those boats.  We knew they were testing because the boats didn't have windshields, etc.  I'm talking full throttle runs combined with the dude grabbing hold of the side of the boat with one arm and doing bat turns.  Don't know what break in schedule they were following, but it's not like any I have ever read.

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Just now, RTS said:

Spent my summers in college skiing on the Conway Chain.  It is where they water tested the Nautiques when they were being built at the Orange Avenue facility.  Let me tell you, those guys hammered those boats.  We knew they were testing because the boats didn't have windshields, etc.  I'm talking full throttle runs combined with the dude grabbing hold of the side of the boat with one arm and doing bat turns.  Don't know what break in schedule they were following, but it's not like any I have ever read.

I did a short brake in but I don't weary to much as long as I have good oil pressure the thermostat is opening and closing no leaks and I don't hold any one speed to long. I also like so good pulls on the throttle.   I ski my boat the firs day after an hour or so of brake in!  Short runs.    

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On 4/9/2017 at 11:20 PM, potterm said:

So I took delivery of my custom ordered M235.  It turned out amazing!  Boat and wave look epic.  Just one huge catch.  Just 2 hours of run time after taking delivery, there was a loud clunk and the boat started violently shaking.  We were cruising at 25 mph when it happened.  After that, any attempt to go faster than 5 mph felt like the transmission was going blow up.  After making sure there was oil in everything and none in the bilge.  We idled back to my lift. 

The noise heard coupled with the vibration afterwards screams bent prop to me.

Has the dealer gotten back in touch with you yet?

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1 hour ago, Sixball said:

I did a short brake in but I don't weary to much as long as I have good oil pressure the thermostat is opening and closing no leaks and I don't hold any one speed to long. I also like so good pulls on the throttle.   I ski my boat the firs day after an hour or so of brake in!  Short runs.    

Heck, we dyno'd mine for half a day and pushed 490 ft lbs of torque out of it.  Varying throttle is all I've been told (of course with good temps, oil, and no leaks).

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2 hours ago, billjames said:

Yeah you right, if I have an issue with a window on my truck I should not complain about Ford but talk to the sub sub contractor that makes the windows. That is the most stupid stuff I hear from a while. I hope you have not and will never work in manufacturing, value chain has been spread around the world the last 100 years with the globalization, I bet no one is building anything in house from scratch. Good companies choose their sub contractors or providers very carefully and have systems and processes in place to control quality at different levels up to customer service for after sales issues. Some other companies do not.......

Even Retailer do so now, look at Costco,  I bet if I bought something from them and it broke a little, they will reimburse me or try to exchange it and do not ask me to blame their sub contractors/providers.

You do understand that the engine and transmission are not assembled by Malibu.  Accordingly, if there happens to be an engine or transmission issue, how do you blame Malibu's "build quality" when the issue has nothing to do with any work that Malibu performed.  If there is an engine/transmission issue, seems to me that the ire should fall on the responsible party i.e. the manufacturer.  There is a reason why the warranty is through the engine manufacturer and not Malibu.  This is a material difference between the auto industry and the boat industry.  But hey, feel free to ignore the facts.

In regard to the OP, I agree that it sounds like a bent prop.   If that turns out to be the case, I hope he lets us know.

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22 minutes ago, Michigan boarder said:

Heck, we dyno'd mine for half a day and pushed 490 ft lbs of torque out of it.  Varying throttle is all I've been told (of course with good temps, oil, and no leaks).

Yeper  We never did any brake in on our drag engines. We sometimes depending on new block or heads would go through some warm ups and cool downs. But for the most part A pit warmup check out, set timing, check valve lash, cool it down and take it up for a run. :woot:

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37 minutes ago, Chattwake said:

You do understand that the engine and transmission are not assembled by Malibu.  Accordingly, if there happens to be an engine or transmission issue, how do you blame Malibu's "build quality" when the issue has nothing to do with any work that Malibu performed.  If there is an engine/transmission issue, seems to me that the ire should fall on the responsible party i.e. the manufacturer.  There is a reason why the warranty is through the engine manufacturer and not Malibu.  This is a material difference between the auto industry and the boat industry.  But hey, feel free to ignore the facts.

In regard to the OP, I agree that it sounds like a bent prop.   If that turns out to be the case, I hope he lets us know.

Can't say as I agree with this......... these are Malibu boats, and Malibu chooses the engine marinizer they want to use. They do have choices, and the total quality of ALL components, of the completed package, should definitely fall on them. They aren't selling these boats without an engine, like an outboard boat. They also don't give the customer a choice on different marinizing companies. They only give the one choice, and they sell you the boat as a complete unit. Any issue with the completed unit should definitely fall on them, because they are the ones who choose all the components to sell the completed boat. (We all know indmar is a good choice. Not debating that)

I have always hated the fact that the engine was warranted separately in these boats..... as well as other components, like stereo equipment (for instance). It's good to see that some companies have started to cover the entire boat, factory direct, on ALL components. No more taking the boat to a dealer and getting  "I'm sorry, we will have to talk to indmar, that is a different warranty", or "I'm sorry, that amp is not covered under the factory warranty because it's made by RF, and their warranty is only one year.". 

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This topic made the value of my 07 go up at least 10k. It already has the bugs worked out and I cleaned out the zip ties and loose hardware.

Edited by MLBurns
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