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muddyriverwater

2015 AXIS A22 Won't Start, Monsoon 350 Injectors?

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muddyriverwater

Hi all, this is my first post, really hoping someone can help me as I'm beat.

I have a 2015 Axis A22 with a crusader monsoon 350 engine. 

The engine will turn over no problem but will not start.

I have a diacom so i'm able to monitor the starts, i get no active fault codes during the start process or saved codes after the start attempt.  

I'm getting a good spark to all 8 plugs so i don't believe its a problem with the ignition system.

Fuel pressure is 24psi when i turn the key on and 54 psi when i crank the engine. (normal) i don't believe its fuel contamination either.

i think it might be an electrical problem leading to an injector fault? but really this is above my knowledge. When i crank the engine i get a sporadical 0.03 VDC send to inj Driver 1 through to 8 ON volts. i get a solid 10.4 VDC to inj Driver 1 through to 8 OFF Volts. Should the inj drivers ON be getting sent the same 10. something Volts? 

Thankyou for your time if anyone replies, with any ideas on what could be the problem.

Kind Regards Dave.

 

 

 

 

 

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boardjnky4

Usually if you have fuel pressure and spark, the crank sensor is to blame for a no-start condition. The engine needs to know where it is at, timing wise so that it can fire the injectors at the right time during startup. So if that sensor fails, the engine has no idea when to fire the injectors.

"electrical problems", I HATE that term. You have a computer, a wire harness and a bunch of input devices (sensors) and a bunch of output devices (injectors, ignition system, fuel pump, etc...). You have to be able to isolate all of those components when you're troubleshooting something like this. There is no such thing as an "electrical problem". It's just a term used to explain a problem that they can't wrap their head around. Either the computer has gone bad, there is a physical problem with the wiring harness, or you have a bad sensor or output device.

Edited by boardjnky4

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boardjnky4
2 hours ago, gahvey said:

This sounds very much like your safety lanyard has come off of the switch.  Check to make sure that is attached correctly.  Without it being on, you will be able to crank the engine over but it won't fire up.

ha, good point

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muddyriverwater

Thanks for the replies guys. 

Its definitely not the safety lanyard. I gather with the safely lanyard off it inhibits the ignition system, and as mentioned i am getting a strong spark. It's secure and I'm happy to rule it out. 

Does anyone know about (injector driver ON VDC) and how much that's meant to be during the starting process? 

Thanks for the comment about the crank sensor that makes sense and I'll look into it. 

Cheers

 

Edited by muddyriverwater

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tvano

realizing this can be a dangerous: if it were mine i'd dump a VERY small amount of fuel down the throttle body then crank (after moving that fuel jug out of the boat).

if it barks then you have a fuel delivery problem.  if it doesn't bark then you have other problems.

please use your head while dumping raw fuel down the little girl's throat; i don't want to read about it in the hk times.

additions from no start document:

Key to ON position.

Normal: Gages active and continuous (repeating) MDC Warning Chime.

Check: Battery isolation switch, Safety lanyard, Battery voltage.

Key to Crank.

Normal: Engine spins

No Spin Check: Gear shift in neutral, Main circuit breaker, Engine circuit breaker, Battery voltage, Hydro-locked

Normal: Engine Starts

No Start Check: Fuel in tank, Vapor Lock, Fuel pump cycle (at ignition on), Flooded engine, Fuel filter, Fuel pump intake screen, ECM/EFI relay working, Cannon connector, Intake and Exhaust passages clear)

Edited by tvano
additions from no start troubleshooting document.

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formulaben
On 3/31/2017 at 3:01 AM, muddyriverwater said:

I'm getting a good spark to all 8 plugs so i don't believe its a problem with the ignition system.

Just to make sure we're eliminating the obvious...did you recently change your spark plug wires?

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electricjohn

Insure you have +12 volt to the injectors.  The ECM only completes the inj. circuits to ground (-12 volts).  Verify inj. fuse and relay are good.

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boardjnky4

Any update?

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Tjhongkong

Hi guys ... I'm part owner of this boat with Dave (the original poster). Haven't been able to work on it much of late unfortunately, but still no start for 3 months. As "tvano" suggested we put fuel in to the throttle body but it did not fire. Compression is excellent. Spark plugs work.

Can I ask then about the crank sensor. If we have put fuel into the throttle body, what is the likelihood of the mixture igniting, 99% maybe? I presume if it did ignite then we should check the crank sensor, but the fact that it didn't ignite, then it is probably not the crank sensor? Does this also rule out the injectors?

We have changed fuel pumps and regulator. By memory I think our pressure is slightly out of limits, supposed to be 57-62, and we are getting 55, but surely this would presume some sort of ignition? 

Any further input much appreciated, help please it's summertime now!

cheers

 

tony

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oldjeep

how much fuel is in the tank?

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boardjnky4

Could definitely be a crank position sensor.

Any reason why you're not working with a dealer to fix this? 

Do you have access to Diacom?

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Tjhongkong

Hi guys, thanks for the replies .... Fuel tank about 1/3 full ... I have a diacom so i'm able to monitor the starts, i get no active fault codes during the start process or saved codes after the start attempt.  .... No dealer in Hong Kong or close by ... Could it be the coil?

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BLSousa

I have read through your comments and all of my comments will be based upon the understanding that during all of these starting attempts and tests you have not gotten any fire on any cylinder at all. No partial start and quit, at any time. If at any time you got a cylinder to fire then all of the following needs to be revisited.

By reading your thread it seems that you have isolated the problem down to an ignition timing issue.

 From reading, you have tested and confirmed fuel pressure within tolerable limits to get it to fire. This rules out fuel pump, filter and low on gas from the tank.

Only gas delivery issue remaining that I can think of would be the injectors. My understanding is that you sprayed (a hopefully SMALL amount of) gas (preferably aerosol starting fluid. Be careful it is dangerous for you and the engine) into the throttle body and did not get any fire on any cylinder at all. This process bypasses the fuel system and confirms that you have an ignition system issue.  It does not say that you don't have any fuel problem, it just confirms an ignition problem. Typically you won't develop two problems simultaneously so odds are that the problem is isolated to the ignition side of things.

You said that you have good spark at all of the plugs which rules out coil and spark plugs. It also rules out any safety switch or kill switch, and combined with the confirmed fuel pressure, rules out most low voltage or ground issue that we would suspect.

To me these tests have isolated the issue to ignition timing. Without having the manual for your specific engine model I can't begin to tell you for certain which sensor, wire or control module in the ignition timing circuit is the culprit. Others have mentioned the crankshaft position sensor, I can't definitively say that it is the problem but it is a suspect IMO and could produce all of your stated symptoms. The symptom that doesn't seem to fit the crank sensor is the fuel pressure rising during engine turn over.  This is indicating that the sensor is providing information back to the    Engine Control Module telling it to begin delivering the high fuel pressure. 

The good news is that you don't need an Indmar or Axis dealer to diagnose and repair an ignition timing issue. A quality mechanic familiar with American V8 engines should be able to help. 

Best of luck to you and I hope you are able to get back on the water soon. 

Edited by BLSousa
Grammar

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Tjhongkong

Hi BL thx for the reply ... yes no fire at any time, your assumption is correct ... when I say we have a good spark, we have pulled each plug out and watched it spark ... someone suggested that under compression pressure that spark may prove inadequate due to other deteriorating parts of the ignition system, we were told to check the coil? This plausible?

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boardjnky4

My money is still on the crank position sensor. Coil is plausible too.

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oldjeep

shot in the dark, if your fuel pressure gauge has a purge valve try purging a couple cups into a clear container and see what your fuel looks like.

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skurfer

He should have received a code before the crank no start if it's the crank position sensor. It still very well could be the culprit. I've seen a 2016 Crusader that was painted over from he factory. My $$ is on the cap and rotor. More specifically the cap. Change it and I bet it fires right up! We have seen this twice! Does it crank and want to fire but just won't? Maybe you get a sputter here and there? If yes, it's the cap... You should also be not the phone/e-mail with PCM/Crusador but I bet the new cap for the win!!

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boardjnky4
2 hours ago, skurfer said:

He should have received a code before the crank no start if it's the crank position sensor. It still very well could be the culprit. I've seen a 2016 Crusader that was painted over from he factory. My $$ is on the cap and rotor. More specifically the cap. Change it and I bet it fires right up! We have seen this twice! Does it crank and want to fire but just won't? Maybe you get a sputter here and there? If yes, it's the cap... You should also be not the phone/e-mail with PCM/Crusador but I bet the new cap for the win!!

You won't always get a code from it. Another poster here had the same issue and never threw a code. I've experienced this in a car as well, with no check engine light.

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skurfer
2 hours ago, boardjnky4 said:

You won't always get a code from it. Another poster here had the same issue and never threw a code. I've experienced this in a car as well, with no check engine light.

Could very well be. My money is on the cap. I would change it, then if no love pull the CPS and inspect it. The CPS that we had go bad had black paint over the male terminals, so no connection....it's like it didn't get taped off from the factory before they painted the motor...

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ski40mph

If the plugs are sparking and fuel is being delivered (by rail or starting fluid) shouldn't it start to fire up even it it is out of timing or out of firing order?

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oldjeep
23 minutes ago, ski40mph said:

If the plugs are sparking and fuel is being delivered (by rail or starting fluid) shouldn't it start to fire up even it it is out of timing or out of firing order?

Yes and at a minimum the plugs would be really wet if the timing/ spark was so bad that it wasn't firing at all.

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23LSVOwner
On 4/1/2017 at 8:52 AM, tvano said:

realizing this can be a dangerous: if it were mine i'd dump a VERY small amount of fuel down the throttle body then crank (after moving that fuel jug out of the boat).

if it barks then you have a fuel delivery problem.  if it doesn't bark then you have other problems.

please use your head while dumping raw fuel down the little girl's throat; i don't want to read about it in the hk times.

additions from no start document:

 

 

I do that but use a high flow spray bottle rather than pouring gas into it.

 

Edited by 23LSVOwner

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formulaben

Not sure if this just muddies the waters or not, but thought it may be useful if it is applicable to your engine.  I wish I could credit where I got this, but can't recall...I added it to my modified "no start guide" that I have in my boat.

 

INDMAR (CHEVY) ENGINE START UP SEQUENCE


Fuel Rail Pressurization:

When you first turn the key to the "on" position (aka “key up”), the fuel pump will run for 2 seconds pressurizing the fuel rails. There is a Schrader valve on the fuel rail near and if you measure the pressure there after the pump runs, you should see between 40-42 pounds of pressure. The reading will go to 38-40 pounds nominal once the engine is running. Test by attaching a fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail at the shrader valve, on TPI and LT1 engines its located on the pass side fuel rail.

Initial Crank Action:

If you then rotate the key to the start position the engine will rotate.  Once the oil pressure has reached 4 PSI, the oil pressure switch will close allowing the fuel pump to run.  The crank position sensor will send a string of pulses to the ECM in response to the engine being rotated by the starter. These pulses continue as long as the engine turns (both starting and running) and if they are not present, the engine will not run.

ECM Reaction:

If the ECM sees oil pressure greater than 4 PSI and the reference pulses from the distributor, it will energize the injector drivers which will begin pulsing the injectors on for 4 ms (milliseconds) periods. The ECM will also pull in the fuel pump relay in effect paralleling it electrically with the oil pressure switch.  The ECM also monitors the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor mounted on the throttle body assembly) and wants to see .54 volts at this time. If it sees more than 0.54 volts, it will assume the engine is flooded.  Assuming the ignition module is good the engine will "catch".

Engine "Catches":

When the engine catches, the MAF sends a signal to the ECM advising that air is flowing and also just how much air is being pulled through to the intake manifold. The ECM takes note of the amount of air being consumed and adjusts the injector pulse width to around 2.2 ms nominally so as to attain a proper air/fuel mixture to insure combustion.  The engine should show an initial idle speed of around 900-1100 RPM and then slowly diminish to 600-700 RPM.  If this does not happen, the Idle Air Mixture valve may be mis-adjusted. Alternatively, there may be a leak in the intake manifold or another vacuum leak may be present. Listen for hissing sounds---there should be none.

ECM Mode:

The engine will now be in Open Loop mode meaning that the ECM is controlling the air/fuel mixture by referencing values stored in memory.  Once the Oxygen sensor <if you have Cats> reaches operating temperature of several hundred degrees, the Manifold Air Temperature (MAT) sensor shows an intake air temperature of more than 140 degrees and the Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) has reached 160 degrees, the computer will switch to closed loop mode meaning the Oxygen sensor's output is examined along with the MAT and ECT outputs and the ECM adjusts the injector pulse widths (more "on time" or less "on time") to constantly strive for a 14.7:1 air/fuel mixture which is the best mixture to hold down pollution.

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skurfer

IIRC, PCM told me the caps are notorious for cracking and breaking internally, so you still can get spark but it's a weak spark and not enough to fire... That's why I hope the OP gets back on the symptoms because the boat really wants to start and it will sputter, but no luck...And it will come from out of nowhere...

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