Sound Deadening Install of '16 Wakesetter 22 VLX

[Lees23]

53 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

I've been following that thread with interest about removing the mufflers. I won't be trying that till my boat is out of warranty though. 

I wouldn't care about engine vibration to the prop. It's engine vibration to the hull that is an interesting question. I have only speculation on how a fiberglass hull with air on one side and water on the other responds to vibration from engine mounts. I'm *guessing* it's not as big a contributing factor as water rushing against the hull though.

And I know how prop rotation creates pressure waves against the hull making it thrum. Nothing changes that but moving the prop further from the hull, or making the hull denser so it lowers the resonant frequency out of what the prop generates. Or stiffer so that it raises the resonant frequency above what the prop generates. I don't really think that particular noise is all that annoying though. 

You think pulling a muffler will void the warranty?

[Slurpee]

1 hour ago, Lees23 said:

You think pulling a muffler will void the warranty?

On something that pricey? I'd want a legal opinion first. 

[Lees23]

Just now, Slurpee said:

On something that pricey? I'd want a legal opinion first. 

Right, I don't disagree.  I just wasn't sure if you have been told that it would.  I am sure you know this but this is a huge debate in the world of aftermarket automotive products.  I am sure you have seen the Magnuson Moss warrant act that says it is up to the dealer to prove the modification caused the issue you need repaired. Seems like in the automotive world it is a given that an aftermarket muffler or muffler delete will not void a warranty.  I 100% get your hesitation though. 

[Slurpee]

You're giving me too much credit. That's all news to me. My wrench turning is limited to mountain bikes. Anything more complicated than a 1x12 speed bike I leave to my father or brother in laws.  I do the electronics. 

Thats great information though. Thanks. 

[Lees23]

Since you are comfortable doing it now, let me know how it works and if you have any warranty issues.  ?

[Chia]

Would dibond work as a sound insulator in this application.

DiBond is 2 thin sheets of aluminum with a foam core centre. Commonly used for advertising displays. Lightweight, bendable, strong...Comes in 4x8 sheets

DiBond image

 

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Chia

[Slurpee]

On 4/8/2017 at 8:20 PM, Chia said:

Would dibond work as a sound insulator in this application.

DiBond is 2 thin sheets of aluminum with a foam core centre. Commonly used for advertising displays. Lightweight, bendable, strong...Comes in 4x8 sheets

DiBond image

 

 

Chia, I doubt it.  Or that is, there isn't anything with its properties that is going to be any more useful at deadening sound than any other foam material of the same thickness.  At that thickness of a few millimeters about the only sounds you'll deaden are the ones a canine with really good hearing would care about.

I do however really like the looks of that DiBond.  I have some home projects that would be cool for.

Oh, and for the record for everyone I have had a chance to crawl around a 2017 Wakesetter LSV.  The upholstery has definitely been changed.  The frame boards are thicker on the rear hatches and on the rear seat back.  No measurements yet, but I expect it'll be about the same as with the sound deadening material I added in my 2016 VLX.  

[Chia]

2 hours ago, Slurpee said:

Chia, I doubt it.  Or that is, there isn't anything with its properties that is going to be any more useful at deadening sound than any other foam material of the same thickness.  At that thickness of a few millimeters about the only sounds you'll deaden are the ones a canine with really good hearing would care about.

I do however really like the looks of that DiBond.  I have some home projects that would be cool for.

Oh, and for the record for everyone I have had a chance to crawl around a 2017 Wakesetter LSV.  The upholstery has definitely been changed.  The frame boards are thicker on the rear hatches and on the rear seat back.  No measurements yet, but I expect it'll be about the same as with the sound deadening material I added in my 2016 VLX.  

Thanks, I was thinking the solid aluminum would reflect sound and the foamish material would counter the resonance produced by the aluminum. Thanks for setting me right.

bob

[Slurpee]

1 hour ago, Chia said:

Thanks, I was thinking the solid aluminum would reflect sound and the foamish material would counter the resonance produced by the aluminum. Thanks for setting me right.

bob

Some sound will be reflected.  Most will go right through it because the aluminum is so thin and the attenuation so small.  The foam with aluminum on the other side will dampen any vibrations to the incident aluminum sheet from sound waves.  Yes, you're right about that.  The scale just isn't big enough to have an impact on our ears by being massive enough to deaden sound waves we'd hear.  What you're thinking of there is a Constrained Layer Dampener (CLD) where a decoupled solid material dampens vibrations in the material it's attached to.  That's products like Hushmat and their ilk.

[Slurpee]

On 4/10/2017 at 11:38 AM, Slurpee said:

Oh, and for the record for everyone I have had a chance to crawl around a 2017 Wakesetter LSV.  The upholstery has definitely been changed.  The frame boards are thicker on the rear hatches and on the rear seat back.  No measurements yet, but I expect it'll be about the same as with the sound deadening material I added in my 2016 VLX.  

@Ronnieand I went out yesterday and took a bunch of sound measurements on his 23LSV with surfpipe.  First off I want to add that the V-Drive unit is different this year.  No, I have no idea what the difference its contribution is if any to the sound of the engine relative to last year.

So after it's all said and done my conclusion is that the improvement in the design of the upholstery backing on the hatches and rear seat back is about 80% of the improvement I got from putting up the sound deadening on my '16.  In a lot of cases it's a 100% similar!!!  In some narrow cases only 50% similar.  But not many.  The mass-loaded-vinyl does a bit better job of muffling a few sounds than the shear mass increase of thicker backing.

If you're getting a '17 LSV (and probably the other models as well, I don't know because I haven't laid eyes on them yet), then it's just about as quiet as boats prior to '16.  And the solution of better designed upholstery is far better in the long run for everyone than adding exotic materials.

Happy Easter everyone.

[Lees23]

@Slurpee do you think buying some self adherent dynamat and lining the I underside of the thin plastic tray that sits above the transmission/v m-Drive would help noise reduction.  I would also probably do more areas in the transmission area and maybe the engine dividers.  

Maybe something like this for the engine compartment:

http://www.dynamat.com/automotive-and-transportation/automotive-restoration/hoodliner/

Just standard Dyna mat on the underside of the trays(if it's too thick it won't go in or out of the hole).  

http://www.dynamat.com/automotive-and-transportation/automotive-restoration/dynamat-xtreme/

I am just looking for something that will give me a noticeable improvement that is easy to buy and install(couple of hours) and won't cost a fortune. 

 

 

[Slurpee]

2 hours ago, Lees23 said:

@Slurpee do you think buying some self adherent dynamat and lining the I underside of the thin plastic tray that sits above the transmission/v m-Drive would help noise reduction.  I would also probably do more areas in the transmission area and maybe the engine dividers.  

Maybe something like this for the engine compartment:

http://www.dynamat.com/automotive-and-transportation/automotive-restoration/hoodliner/

Just standard Dyna mat on the underside of the trays(if it's too thick it won't go in or out of the hole).  

http://www.dynamat.com/automotive-and-transportation/automotive-restoration/dynamat-xtreme/

I am just looking for something that will give me a noticeable improvement that is easy to buy and install(couple of hours) and won't cost a fortune. 

 

 

Howdy @Lees23, I honestly wouldn't bother with that. Dynamat, Hushmat, and the like are constrained-layer-dampeners.  They dampen vibration in panels mostly so that they don't act like struck drum skins amplifying sound.  While they do add a tiny bit of mass to deaden sound, they don't add enough limp mass to really deaden sounds at a frequency you care about or could hear the results.  I do not believe I'm realizing any results from the CLDs I added to my trays.  I know the transom and engine trays were rattling some when I stuck my ears near the cushions that were covering them.  It was plastic resting on fiberglass or metal.  The CLDs changed it a bit.  What really helped there was actually making a foam gasket for the flange all the way around the trays so that they were decoupled from resting directly on a hard surface.  Now that was a cheap solution!  But I think it was a benefit in the 'splitting hairs' category.

I've been in Ronnie's new 23LSV and it's pretty quiet.  I'd say nearly as quiet as mine and it measures that way.  There's a new V-Drive unit this year, and the upholstery is thicker.  Both are probably contributing factors.

If you're curious about what it would sound like though if you did something, fill the trays up all the way with something dense like moving blankets and have a listen.

[Lees23]

36 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Howdy @Lees23, I honestly wouldn't bother with that. Dynamat, Hushmat, and the like are constrained-layer-dampeners.  They dampen vibration in panels mostly so that they don't act like struck drum skins amplifying sound.  While they do add a tiny bit of mass to deaden sound, they don't add enough limp mass to really deaden sounds at a frequency you care about or could hear the results.  I do not believe I'm realizing any results from the CLDs I added to my trays.  I know the transom and engine trays were rattling some when I stuck my ears near the cushions that were covering them.  It was plastic resting on fiberglass or metal.  The CLDs changed it a bit.  What really helped there was actually making a foam gasket for the flange all the way around the trays so that they were decoupled from resting directly on a hard surface.  Now that was a cheap solution!  But I think it was a benefit in the 'splitting hairs' category.

I've been in Ronnie's new 23LSV and it's pretty quiet.  I'd say nearly as quiet as mine and it measures that way.  There's a new V-Drive unit this year, and the upholstery is thicker.  Both are probably contributing factors.

If you're curious about what it would sound like though if you did something, fill the trays up all the way with something dense like moving blankets and have a listen.

That's why I asked you!! Thanks for your input.  Did you see that the hoodliner is 3/4" closed and open cell foam?  I just know that the typical dynamat stuff is super thin and wasn't sure if you looked at the hoodliner sound insulation.  

 

Thanks again for your input. 

[Lees23]

I think I am going to fill the center seat(above the tranny) with dock ropes so that is pretty dense and I have a bunch of window seal that I can use to eliminate the glass/plastic rattle. 

[Slurpee]

Since someone tagged this thread, it reminded me to do an update.  The whole velcro thing didn't live through a Texas Summer.  I bet it'd be fine anywhere that didn't break 90F.  But here the adhesive on the velcro attached to the MLV would migrate and eventually detach.  It required replacement.  The second time this happened I switched to this really cool connector instead.  Now the panels just snap in.  It took a long time to get Sailrite to stock this model for extra-thick material from Loxx.  I really hated those few months with my panels removed from the boat.  I also removed the MLV from the bottom of the two trays.  I trimmed it a little around the edges and then laid it inside the tray bottoms.  Same effect and a smarter install.

https://www.sailrite.com/Loxx-Pull-It-Up-Fastener-Upper-Head-with-Long-Washer

https://www.sailrite.com/Loxx-Pull-It-Up-Fastener-1-2-Self-Tapping-Screw-Stud

[rogermulligan]

Hi Slurpee,  I enjoyed reading all of your posts on sound reduction.  I noticed that you said that after all said and done,  adding density to your rear seats had the same effect (did I get that correct?)  My question is how did you do that?  I am about to re-upholster my boat in that area so this would be helpful.  Put the Mass loaded sandwich between the foam and the seat bases?  or...

[Slurpee]

12 hours ago, rogermulligan said:

Hi Slurpee,  I enjoyed reading all of your posts on sound reduction.  I noticed that you said that after all said and done,  adding density to your rear seats had the same effect (did I get that correct?)  My question is how did you do that?  I am about to re-upholster my boat in that area so this would be helpful.  Put the Mass loaded sandwich between the foam and the seat bases?  or...

So that’s an interesting idea. Ultimately it’s physics. The more mass the more sound is attenuated. I put the MLV sandwich along the back side of the seats. But if you’re reupholstering you have a good opportunity. I think I’d put a bunch between the baseboard and foam. Considering how rigid it is you likely not even need to attach it in any way beyond squeezing it between the foam and board.

Remember that MLV only works if it’s suspended so to speak. So it can’t lay against a rigid surface. It needs a thin layer of foam on either side at minimum. 

The SDS guy retired and shut down his business so you’ll have to source it all somewhere else. 

Also something to consider. How will the cushions drain? This stuff isn’t water permeable. 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Slurpee

[rogermulligan]

Hi Slurpee,  I enjoyed reading all of your posts on sound reduction.  I noticed that you said that after all said and done,  adding density to your rear seats had the same effect (did I get that correct?)  My question is how did you do that?  I am about to re-upholster my boat in that area so this would be helpful.  Put the Mass loaded sandwich between the foam and the seat bases?  or...

Yes,  I was worried about water getting out,  In some respects,  glad the materials don't absorb water so that I don't have to worry about them getting full of water and maybe molding up.  could look at cutting in holes to align with the base weep holes,  or seal edges and force the water to the sides and put in alternate holes.  Not sure at this point.  also not sure is adding the MLV sandwich  would force me to change the original upholstery foam to something slightly thinner to accommodate.  Maybe easier to put the sandwich on the reverse side of the seat bases and glue on (and align the weep holes - would still use the CCF between the seat base and the MLV).

[rogermulligan]

any recommendations on a new source of materials?

[Slurpee]

38 minutes ago, rogermulligan said:

any recommendations on a new source of materials?

Sorry. No. I ordered a lot back when I did this and finished all my projects with it like lining the dishwasher and refrigerator cabinets, etc. I doubt I have a yard of it left.

Gluing doesn’t work well at all. I tried it. Twice. Eventually it gives. Vinyl is just too low a surface energy except for some pretty aggressive glues. I used mechanical fasteners to great success. 

Aligning weep holes makes a lot of sense. And I really would be surprised if a half inch of extra pack out made a big deal. New upholstery will accommodate it. 

Something Malibu quietly did between ‘16 and ‘17 to address noise some was that they used thicker base boards between the engine and upholstery. The upholstery in the hatches and seats felt like they had thicker baseboards as well. So... more mass. 

[rogermulligan]

Thx,  your response are appreciated.  Roger.

 

 

[audipwr1]

to the top - anyone find new materials? I can't stand the engine roar at surf speed 

[MarkW]

Hi Slurpee, thank you for the detailed writeup on your install. It has been extremely helpful in planning my own sound deadening project on my MB B52 23’. Do you have any updates on how everything is holding up? Also, could you explain more on how you attached the barriers? I saw your update about the Loxx fasteners, but I don’t completely understand how they’re installed, and in some places, like the transmission compartment, I don’t have any wall to attach it to. It would have to be hung from the top some way. Did you have this problem?

[Slurpee]

@MarkW, the loxx fasteners are kind of like a locking button. It assembles on the vinyl with a washer that sandwiches the vinyl.  The stud they attach to is a ball on a post. There are a few styles of stud depending on what you have to work with. I used some that had self tapping screws. 

And in the transmission compartment I had HDPE to screw to. 

Anyways, after moving to those fasteners it held up well. I traded it in this year though for a 2019

Edited June 12, 2020 by Slurpee

[MarkW]

5 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

@MarkW, the loxx fasteners are kind of like a locking button. It assembles on the vinyl with a washer that sandwiches the vinyl.  The stud they attach to is a ball on a post. There are a few styles of stud depending on what you have to work with. I used some that had self tapping screws. 

And in the transmission compartment I had HDPE to screw to. 

Anyways, after moving to those fasteners it held up well. I traded it in this year though for a 2019

And they were able to fit on your material? It looks like they're rated for a max thickness of .175" and I believe your setup was much thicker.

Also, congrats on the new boat. Any plans to apply the sound deadening material to this one?