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Slurpee

Sound Deadening Install of '16 Wakesetter 22 VLX

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teamerickson

It's a ford thang! :innocent:

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FlyBoyCoy

I will have my wife read this and will get a total hall pass when working on the boat now... "see honey I'm not THAT bad!" lol  

This is great! 

OK so did I miss it?  What is cost and estimated time using your learning curve?  

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Slurpee
16 hours ago, tjklein said:

Any concerns with heat and this modification?  Probably okay, but worth thinking about with all that thick sound deadening.

Heat.  Nope.  I thought of that to, and put thermocouples in there before and after.  No change.  I didn't block up any of channels for air flow so I wouldn't expect a change if the air flow isn't changed.  It's not really any more temperature insulating than what it was before.

13 minutes ago, FlyBoyCoy said:

I will have my wife read this and will get a total hall pass when working on the boat now... "see honey I'm not THAT bad!" lol  

This is great! 

OK so did I miss it?  What is cost and estimated time using your learning curve?  

Yup.  I tend to get on a mission.  My wife just lets me do it since I don't have many other vices besides my boat and my mountain bike.  It keeps me out of other trouble and happy. :)  I would estimate I used about $650 of what I spent.  $100 of that is shipping.  That stuff is heavy.  I skated closer to $900 with the learning curve and extra material I bought and didn't use.  Time... That's hard.  If I was doing a 22VLX again I could use my own pieces as templates. A helper and I could do it in a weekend.  Starting from scratch on a different boat I'd think one weekend to make templates, prep the boat getting cables and hoses and things situated nicely and generally figuring it all out.  Then the next weekend cutting and installing.  I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what would adhere to what.  For instance the velcro SDS sells with #75 adhesive is awesome on vinyl and does decent on the ABS plastics and exposed aluminum.  Not anything else.  So I had to try a few things to find that Velcro with #19 adhesive sticks pretty nicely to the HDPE engine divider panels with a little heat and pressure during application.  Then there was figuring out what would stick to powder coated metal.  That required 3M #111 Primer and 3M TB3571/3572 acrylic adhesive hook and loop.  That was the magic ticket there.

I liken it to a full stereo install including running wires and such as far as time goes.

I'll get some data up this weekend with before and after RTA captures.  I've been struggling over how best to show the results.  I think the data I took with the engine in Neutral running through the RPM range is the most easily seen.

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JeffC

NICE WORK!   

Wonder if you could sell this idea and have it manufactured as a kit?  Would seem like it would yield at least SOME to volume purchasing and manufacturing - or is it really a custom job for each boat in the end?

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FlyBoyCoy

Or form templates for the different boats and sell precut forms. I'd pay it. Because I agree this new boat has much more noise than the last 350s I've had. 

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Slurpee
1 hour ago, JeffC said:

NICE WORK!   

Wonder if you could sell this idea and have it manufactured as a kit?  Would seem like it would yield at least SOME to volume purchasing and manufacturing - or is it really a custom job for each boat in the end?

Thanks.  And No, it's not really a custom fit for each boat.  I'm sure my forms would work on any 22VLX.  The only vague dimensions are where there are some penetrations.  I have one on each side of the transom where the cables to the pump relays run out to wherever.  And I have some on the front of the engine box where I made some cutouts to put some standoffs for the ballast vents to mount to.  If you look carefully you can see them in the photo.  Otherwise it's got to be pretty much the same for every boat in the series if Malibu is doing a decent job.  I figure I could make the instructions simple enough to explain how to cut a whole in vinyl for the penetration.  Step 1) Pick up scissors.....

13 minutes ago, FlyBoyCoy said:

Or form templates for the different boats and sell precut forms. I'd pay it. Because I agree this new boat has much more noise than the last 350s I've had. 

Maybe when Ronnie get's his 23LSV in the next month I'll make some measurements and see how different it is from my boat.  It could be they're very similar.  If they're similar enough I'll pull my panels back out and make some measurements and get some drawings done for y'all along with a bill of materials.  The beauty of Velcro.  

I don't know that I'd ever kit this stuff up for sale.  It wouldn't make sense for y'all when you could buy it direct without whatever I marked it up.  And paying me to make all the cuts is out.  Believe me you can't afford it. :)

What has me wondering though is how much would this be worth as an upgrade when ordering a new boat?  Installing this kind of thing during construction would really simplify it and have the potential to be a much more effective installation.

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FlyBoyCoy

Yes sir that too!

Well sell us the template prints! :woot:

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BLSousa

That is great info!  Thank you for your diligence in tracking down the noise sources.  We have a 22VLX on order and the noise level was a concern for me!  Please save those templates, I may be asking to borrow them as well as an idea of the most beneficial changes.  :drool: I would have never guessed that the prop wash was the primary culprit.  

Edited by BLSousa

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hethj7

Interesting stuff, but I guess my ears just aren't as good as others.   I don't notice any more noise in this than my previous boat, unless I'm at 4,000 RPMS or higher, which is rare.   And unless my passengers are just being nice, it's never been a point of discussion from them either.    The install is great and I'm sure it does make a noticeable difference - I personally just didn't know it was something I may even need :)

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JeffC
1 hour ago, Slurpee said:

What has me wondering though is how much would this be worth as an upgrade when ordering a new boat?  Installing this kind of thing during construction would really simplify it and have the potential to be a much more effective installation.

Seems like it could just be something engineered into the boat.  But until it is either standard, or an option, sounds like a good project for anyone the noise bothers.    I wont know until May ( #$* #[email protected]#  $%^*  $%@&).  But it is GOOD to know there is a reasonable solution if it DOES bother me.   Thanks for doing the HARD part of the work!

 

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Fman

I just turn up the stereo, isn't that why we put those tower speakers on!:)

Nice install, I have yet to be out with the new Ford so will be interesting comparing to my prior GM 409.  I am hopeful it won't be a shocking difference.

Your should send those pics to Malibu that could definitely be an upgrade option for future BU's.

Edited by Fman

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Slurpee
11 hours ago, JeffC said:

Seems like it could just be something engineered into the boat.  But until it is either standard, or an option, sounds like a good project for anyone the noise bothers.    I wont know until May ( #$* #[email protected]#  $%^*  $%@&).  But it is GOOD to know there is a reasonable solution if it DOES bother me.   Thanks for doing the HARD part of the work!

 

You know all it really is I'm doing is adding Mass in as close to a seamless layer as possible.  That seems like something easy enough to do in a lot of ways.

12 hours ago, BLSousa said:

That is great info!  Thank you for your diligence in tracking down the noise sources.  We have a 22VLX on order and the noise level was a concern for me!  Please save those templates, I may be asking to borrow them as well as an idea of the most beneficial changes.  :drool: I would have never guessed that the prop wash was the primary culprit.  

You're welcome.  I'm happy y'all find it useful.  I've got to take my boat in to the dealer for them to replace some skins under warranty soon.  I'll pull all the panels then and make some nice templates and move them to SketchUp for y'all.  That way I don't have to keep track of a bunch of cardboard.  And I won't freak my dealer out with all that shiny stuff in the engine compartment. Hah.  Waterskiamerica is cool, but blatant flaming engineering scares people. LOL.

12 hours ago, hethj7 said:

Interesting stuff, but I guess my ears just aren't as good as others.   I don't notice any more noise in this than my previous boat, unless I'm at 4,000 RPMS or higher, which is rare.   And unless my passengers are just being nice, it's never been a point of discussion from them either.    The install is great and I'm sure it does make a noticeable difference - I personally just didn't know it was something I may even need :)

Yeah.  I'm rarely at >4000rpm.  I just wanted to point out that discovery I made about the prop really becoming a major noise source at that speed because of it's size and relatively close position to the hull.  It's also why some props sound a bit different than others.  The base note is there, but some of the extra harmonics that make the sound unique are bound to change with prop shape and the like.  The sound deadening doesn't help a whole lot at that speed either.  Too much water and wind noise.  It does eat up the higher pitches coming from the engine so it sounds nicer (to me), but the sound floor is really high and the prop noise swamps it all anyways.  Theoretically though based on Sound Deadening (CLD) Testing research that TooStubborn2Fail did at diymobileaudio.com on various CLD Tiles I think *IF* you could get access to the hull you could checkerboard it with CLD tiles and dampen out that prop noise (and probably plenty of other noises).  The most effected frequencies appear to be exactly those we'd all like to squelch.

Anyways, My goal was to make the 2800-3500 rpm range as nice as possiboe.  The sound deadening helps there by making it a bit more quieter, but definitely more pleasant sounding.  And even then it's all in the ear of the beholder.  This is actually a whole science called Psychoacoustics.  It's wild the debates you'll read on line about what is twice as loud when you go looking for them?  Is it 6dB, 8dB, 10dB differences.  Etc Etc.

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bbattiste247

When I first got my 2016 23 lsv, I was obsessed with the noise thing too. I thought about many ways to cut down on the annoying whine, but when I thought about how much work it was gonna be, I stopped. But when I changed my prom from a 15x14.25 (2249) to a 15X17.75 (2401), it reduced the engine whine significantly.

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Slurpee
18 hours ago, bbattiste247 said:

When I first got my 2016 23 lsv, I was obsessed with the noise thing too. I thought about many ways to cut down on the annoying whine, but when I thought about how much work it was gonna be, I stopped. But when I changed my prom from a 15x14.25 (2249) to a 15X17.75 (2401), it reduced the engine whine significantly.

I absolutely agree with you. Getting RPMs DOWN is very beneficial. I went that way myself trying longer pitches. I didn't try that long a pitch though. When I got to 16.25 it felt like I was at the point where it'd start slipping too much under load. But I never tried to find out either. Plus OJ didn't have a prop that size to try. And getting Acme props to test isn't near as easy to do as OJ. I've seen some really good results on this board though and would love to try. 

[added by edit] For the record, in the chart below the 925A is a 15x16.25,0.105 cup prop from OJ that I've been running since last summer and with which I took my measurements for the sound deadening.  The difference between it and the 2249 my boat came with for any given speed after getting on plane is about 250-300rpm.  The big difference is at what RPM you get on plane (unloaded) so that your most efficient cruise speeds are easier on the engine.

Anyone want to let me borrow a 2401?

Anyone with a 22VLX around about 700 feet sea level and a 2401 want to take some data points for me to add to the graph below?

RPM curves.jpg

Edited by Slurpee

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bbattiste247

I am at 1000 feet and the 2401 didn't seem to work at first. When my 2016 23 lsv was loaded up in the rear with 2x750lbs bags, I couldn't get up to surf speed with the wedge in place. But one day, when two adults were sitting in the bow, the boat had no problem reaching and maintaining 10-11 mph, so I put more weight in the bow and have used it that way flawlessly for at least 125 hours. I just got a 2017 23 lsv with 2x1100lbs rear bags and I am using the 2401 prop as well. We have been out only once, but it had no problems. The rpms are low and the top speed is 42 mph. Although, it does take a little longer to get on plane when wakeboarding if the bags are full. 

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Slurpee

Well I'm glad you jumped in and reminded us about props. It doesn't reduce any noise for a given rpm but does indeed let us live with a lower rpm operating range which is effectively very similar. 

I'll go beg or borrow one of those 2401 soon I think. I'll add that to this thread as well then after we evaluate it. Potentially, with mellowing out the noise from the engine and also reducing the rpm that'd be a great total solution. At least for us at lower altitudes.

Both ways cost about the same money ironically as well. 

Edited by Slurpee

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bbattiste247
3 hours ago, Slurpee said:

Well I'm glad you jumped in and reminded us about props. It doesn't reduce any noise for a given rpm but does indeed let us live with a lower rpm operating range which is effectively very similar. 

I'll go beg or borrow one of those 2401 soon I think. I'll add that to this thread as well then after we evaluate it. Potentially, with mellowing out the noise from the engine and also reducing the rpm that'd be a great total solution. At least for us at lower altitudes.

Both ways cost about the same money ironically as well. 

I will do some testing tomorrow with the 2401 prop on my 2017. The motor or tranny on the 2017 is definitely quieter than my 2016. I demoed the 2017 with the 2249 prop and the whine was tolerable, but on the 2016 with the 2249 prop, I hated the noise problem. 

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Slurpee

These are a pain to mark up so I'll post them as I get them done.  And I am aware that most folks aren't going to understand what they're looking at.  But here's the results for those that do.  I decided to just put up the data for when the boat was in Neutral.  The data for when the boat was running down the lake is hard to separate other machine noises like the propeller and exhaust.

First, Decibels.  The short version.  dB are not an absolute value relative to 0.  Not like 20 is always 20 because we start at 0 all the time.  Decibels are logarithmic for starters.  Second they're a measurement that only means something if you know what you're starting with.  Think of a dB measurement as a type of ratio of the change between two things.  It's that logarithmic bit that confuses people because while we see and hear on that scale we definitely don't think on that scale.  LOL maybe it's evolving without enough toes and fingers to appreciate the counting.

Anyways, doing my best to sidestep this debate.  Here's a rough scale for general noise.  8dB lower is 50% the loudness. 6dB lower is 60% the loudness. 4dB lower is 70% the loudness. 2dB lower is 80% as loud.  1dB lower you're not likely to be able to tell the difference.

So here's the first chart with the boat in netural running 4k rpm with the before and after mods plotted out.  This first plot is the Psychoacoustic filter.  Makes it a bit easier to get a sense of what you're looking at because it smooths things out and applies an A-Weighted scale for what our ears are more and less sensitive to as I understand it.  But I'll put less smoothed out plots after this one of the exact same data.

32816190683_fa98fce365_c.jpg

32787276314_487ab20582_c.jpg

32816189453_d3dc732a6d_c.jpg

I want everyone to stop for a second and say a great big thank you to the people who's brains are wired in a way to make all this into beautiful stuff like concert halls, albums, theaters, and even fancier stuff like noise cancelling headphones, acoustic curtains, etc.  It is wildly complicated when you start down the rabbit hole.

 

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obski

Engineers.

Gotta love it.

Glad your wife lets you support your habit.:)

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BLSousa

The engineering nerd in me loves it!  Thank you for taking the time to gather all this information!

 

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Slurpee
14 hours ago, obski said:

Engineers.

Gotta love it.

Glad your wife lets you support your habit.:)

She's a good woman.  She lets me think that I sold her on doing this for us so we'd enjoy the boat more. :) 

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JeffC

I am just geeking out on this... What are you measuring/collecting all this data from?  I have a sound meter, but NOTHING that would support this level of data.   Where are you measuring from - is there a large variance from one position in the cockpit to another, or is it relatively consistent?

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Lees23

Interesting that the 17's are quieter than the 16's.  What has changed?

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