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ponderosasurf

2015 lsv speaker mounting depth

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ponderosasurf

I am looking to swap the Rockford 8 inch speakers in the cabin for JL 8.8s. The circumference for mounting is not an issue, but the depth on the 8.8s is 2 inches more than the rockfords. I do not have access to my boat to measure as it is in storage. Does anyone know how much clearance is behind the speaker opening? Meaning how much space from the speaker opening until something interferes. If someone has access to their lsv and can make a quick measurement, I would be very appreciative. 

If anyone has installed jl 8.8s in the cabin, I'd love to hear about it. 

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tjklein

The JLs are too deep.  You'd need to add about a 7/8" spacer if I remember.  I wanted to do them on my LSV but they wouldn't fit so I went with WS 808s.

 

Plus, they might be too heavy for the panels and crack them if you don't reinforce them.

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ponderosasurf

Thanks for the quick reply @tjklein  

are you happy with the wet sound speakers? Was really hoping to do the 8.8s but that sounds like it won't happen. Did you run the wet sounds 6.5s up front then?

did the ws808s swap out with the rfs easily? 

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David

Regardless of which speaker you select, you should find a way to add rigidity to the panels. Many of us have experienced the identical speaker in both a compliant coaming pocket on one boat versus mounted in reasonably thick fiberglass in another boat. The difference in sound quality, particularly in the midbass, is a shocker.   

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ponderosasurf

Any tips on how to easily do that? @David

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tjklein

The Wet Sounds 808s sounded really nice, the new Revos sound better.  The JL 880s would be even better, but is it worth going through all of the work to reinforce the panels?  You would have to add rings on the front for spacers and then reinforce the back through 1 or 2 different means.  I just don't think the audible difference would be worth it.

 

David is right - the speakers would sound better with a thicker reinforced panel like fiberglass, but again upgrading to the Rev speakers with proper power is still a BIG jump from the RF stuff IMO.  It's probably like the difference between a WS XXXv2 sub versus a JL 12w6.  The WS is bigger and badder for sure in terms of output, but the 12w6 sounds really good, has 90% of the output and requires less amp and probably a little less support due to weight.   Not the greatest analogy, but you get the general idea.

 

I am no audio expert, but those are my opinions after being in the exact same situation as you.  I DID reinforce my walkway speakers because I felt like those WS 650s weren't getting any support.  Again, I ordered my 23LSV blank though.

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David
2 hours ago, ponderosasurf said:

Any tips on how to easily do that? @David

Sure, I have lots of tips when someone else is doing the work.

Separate from any outer cosmetic ring intended to space the speaker out, pre-mount a 0.75" thick resin-coated birch baffle ring on the backside of the panel. This will add rigidity to the panel at each mounting location and provide a better material to seat the speaker mounting screws into. I would also want to stiffen the entire coaming panel by cross-bracing to something else with some structural strength. The hull isn't an option. So if you want to pursue that idea you'll have to have a look inside the gunnel cavity and come up with a plan.     

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Slurpee

Hah.  I just finished this in my '16 22 VLX. :). While I was at it corrected that awful decision to point the best speakers in the boat away from the driver.

Basically I made some rings out of 3/4" MDF.  Stacked 2 or 3 (depending on the speaker location) with good glue.  Then mitred the rings to give me the angle adjustment I needed.  I cut a 1/8" closed cell foam gasket after some touch up sanding to make sure the rings were a perfect fit.  Then I screwed into the wood from the back of the plastic trim panel with 6x #10 3/4" stainless hex head screws.  The rings actually reinforced the panel and made it a lot more rigid in it's mounting position.  Something else is breaking before that panel or speaker mount does.

I'll get some pictures up here in a bit.  And oh, the moral of the story.  JL M880 sound so much freaking better than the OEM Rockford Fosgates.  I was fooling myself thinking they'd be good enough.

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shawndoggy

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Slurpee
Just now, shawndoggy said:

@Slurpee need pics!

Hah! Beat you to it! @shawndoggy!

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shawndoggy

oh snap!  captain's speakers!

@Slurpee that's the dream install right there all JL.  Bet it sounds amazing!

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Slurpee
9 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

oh snap!  captain's speakers!

@Slurpee that's the dream install right there all JL.  Bet it sounds amazing!

It so does.  It so very much does. :woot:  I'm geeking to start playing with the TWK88.  I can get all the speakers tuned with that DSP to the right distances, phase, etc.  I think I figured out even how to EQ every speaker pair even though they're paralleled. So exciting.  

@WakeMD is a musician.  Even after a really good tune from Earmark she disliked the sound in the boat.  Said she felt like her ears were shoved inside a dremel.  I think that's an extreme description myself.  Regardless, I only ever got to listen to my boat's sound when she wasn't in it which meant I wasn't having any fun because she's my driver.  After much discussion where she explained in multiple fashions to my musically inept self what was wrong I decided to go back to what I knew she liked from my last boat.  JL M series.  It was a very expensive gamble.  But tonight we finally got out as a family and she was soooo happy.  Which means I'm soooo happy.  We were at maximum volume and she was hopping around like a conductor geeking.  

Forget tower speakers to fill out the sound in the boat.  This is the way to go hands down.

Oh, and for folks who are wondering how big can those M880 be?  Why is everyone mentioning mounting panel strength.  Here's an unboxing photo.  That's my 5 year olds 95% percentile head right next to it.  Dang!

33444205296_e5ed5d4042_k.jpg

Edited by Slurpee

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David

Slurpee that is incredible! Totally agree about the JL Audio M series. The only marine coaxial speaker that I cannot hear the actual crossover point. Truly seamless. The JL Audio DSP is going to be an amazing addition. Biggest difference? Midbass. There is so much storage inherent in all subwoofers...as its not just about the distance differential. When all satellites are delayed to allow alignment with the sub, the coherence and attack is breathtaking. Another flaw in the factory speaker positioning is the comb filtering that occurs when two higher frequency drivers are slightly spread apart horizontally and create a response null. You can hear the difference/improvement by listening to one pair rear cockpit coaxials only. Usually not worth discussion because there's normally no way to correct for it....until you add the DSP. Earmark, a great resource, has been doing DSP since the '90s with the advent of the Sony ES and Alpine F1 Status. Really fun stuff.    

 

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minnmarker
16 minutes ago, David said:

Another flaw in the factory speaker positioning is the comb filtering that occurs when two higher frequency drivers are slightly spread apart horizontally and create a response null.

I've wondered about this in boats that have 6 or 8 speakers in the cabin pointed at each other in horizontal arrays.  It seems like something you wold never do in a stage or theater setting.  I'm probably missing something...

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shawndoggy
38 minutes ago, David said:

There is so much storage inherent in all subwoofers...as its not just about the distance differential. When all satellites are delayed to allow alignment with the sub, the coherence and attack is breathtaking.

dang it I think you guys are spending my money for me again.  I think I've finally figured out that I have a serious time alignment issue in my excursion.  12w6v2 in the "way back" and 6.5 components in kicks up front and I can never get the bass/midbass to sound quite right... like it's a just a milisecond off and ends up sounding disconnected and a little boomy.

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David
2 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

dang it I think you guys are spending my money for me again.  I think I've finally figured out that I have a serious time alignment issue in my excursion.  12w6v2 in the "way back" and 6.5 components in kicks up front and I can never get the bass/midbass to sound quite right... like it's a just a milisecond off and ends up sounding disconnected and a little boomy.

The subwoofer doesn't become completely non-directional until it is aligned with the midbass of the coaxials. Consider that the steep wavefront of any bass transient is mostly contained in the coaxials. It can also be a sign that the crossover isn't completely symmetrical or that the hi/low gain isn't equal at the crossover point. Normal trade-offs when you're going for that extra bottom end emphasis. Given that subwoofers have several milliseconds delay anyway, it is to your advantage to have the subwoofer closest to you.  

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Slurpee
4 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

dang it I think you guys are spending my money for me again.  I think I've finally figured out that I have a serious time alignment issue in my excursion.  12w6v2 in the "way back" and 6.5 components in kicks up front and I can never get the bass/midbass to sound quite right... like it's a just a milisecond off and ends up sounding disconnected and a little boomy.

Yup.  My 12W6v3D4 isn't sounding quite the way I expect.  I'm going to have a good time with that DSP.  Probably mess things up a lot at first.  But when it's as easy as mouse clicks to try something out I'm in.  @David, If I rewired my speakers so that the bow speakers were both paralleled to CH1-L and the floor speakers were both parralleled to CH1-R would that really mess things up acoustically?  If I mono'd the signal to CH1 first?  I have to parallel the speakers for my SD4 to drive 8 speakers obviously.  But I'd like a different EQ on the floor speakers than the bow speakers and I can do that if I rewired the speakers a little.

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David
31 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

I've wondered about this in boats that have 6 or 8 speakers in the cabin pointed at each other in horizontal arrays.  It seems like something you wold never do in a stage or theater setting.  I'm probably missing something...

Being surrounded by speakers definite destroys any image which is very fragile. But on the flipside, that surround experience, like headphones, can be very pleasant. Generally the hardest part is having enough front stage in the cockpit. The off-axis comb-filtering isn't as much of a problem when speakers are distributed a greater distance apart, just when closer together like they are in the cockpit combing pockets.  

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MLA
16 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Yup.  My 12W6v3D4 isn't sounding quite the way I expect.  I'm going to have a good time with that DSP.  Probably mess things up a lot at first.  But when it's as easy as mouse clicks to try something out I'm in.  @David, If I rewired my speakers so that the bow speakers were both paralleled to CH1-L and the floor speakers were both parralleled to CH1-R would that really mess things up acoustically?  If I mono'd the signal to CH1 first?  I have to parallel the speakers for my SD4 to drive 8 speakers obviously.  But I'd like a different EQ on the floor speakers than the bow speakers and I can do that if I rewired the speakers a little.

Try switching those chnls from stereo to mono first, before rewiring anything. 

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David
5 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Yup.  My 12W6v3D4 isn't sounding quite the way I expect.  I'm going to have a good time with that DSP.  Probably mess things up a lot at first.  But when it's as easy as mouse clicks to try something out I'm in.  @David, If I rewired my speakers so that the bow speakers were both paralleled to CH1-L and the floor speakers were both parralleled to CH1-R would that really mess things up acoustically?  If I mono'd the signal to CH1 first?  I have to parallel the speakers for my SD4 to drive 8 speakers obviously.  But I'd like a different EQ on the floor speakers than the bow speakers and I can do that if I rewired the speakers a little.

I would give zero DSP consideration to the bow speakers. They make no contribution to the cockpit experience. I doubt I would try and separate the rear cockpit coaxials on independent channels for the purpose of time correction, if you are searching for additional channels (control, not amplification). View these as a single pair because they are behind you and it will be very difficult to perceive a phase difference from your perspective. But the EQ application will impact the whole of the two speakers per each combing pocket and that is what you need most. Having more amplifier channels is usually core to taking full advantage of a DSP. From a control standpoint you need enough DSP and amplifier channels to have independent control over three in-cabin zones, sub, front, and rear. The front floor speakers are the only location you could perceive as 'stereo', so I wouldn't sum to mono there. Also, recording/mixing studio techniques often use phasing to create the stereo illusion. So it's tricky to sum fullrange channels.    

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David

Worth mentioning is that correcting nulls and peaks are two very different matters. With peaks, as long as you accurately recreate the frequency and 'Q' of the problem, you will get a 1 to 1 ratio in the correction. But with the correction of nulls, it can become a black hole for power and ruin the system's dynamic qualities. For example, if you add 1.414 more voltage you should get an acoustic return of + 3dB output. If you only get a fraction of that then you have to back off and accept a limited correction. Also, as opposed to analog, digital distortion is nasty, so you have to be very careful to not overdrive the input of any digital processor.      

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Slurpee
38 minutes ago, MLA said:

Try switching those chnls from stereo to mono first, before rewiring anything. 

I meant something like this in the attached image.  This way I can tune EQ3 and EQ4 differently for two different listening environments.  If y'all have never played with the Tun software.  It's pretty cool.

2017-03-17_11-27-28.jpg

Edited by Slurpee

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minnmarker

Let's see the TUNE tab.

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Earmark Marine

A couple of people have mentioned that their subwoofer sounds "detached" and not integral with the full range speakers.  This probably isn't what anyone wants to hear, but no amount of DSP processing or subwoofer positioning can fix this problem if the volume level of the subwoofer is not proportional to the full range speakers.  I have DSP tuned cars where the subwoofer literally disappears, and all of the bass appears to come from the front of the vehicle.  BUT, as soon as I raise the subwoofer level to a certain point it becomes detached again. 

Getting a 12W6 to blend smoothly and disappear into a system seamlessly means proper level matching.  A natural sounding subwoofer, reproducing the music from instruments that play below 100Hz, typically (drums, bass guitar, lower keys, etc.)  If you are listening to electronic/rap/pop/etc. music that is made with computers (as opposed to instruments) then you're probably going to tune your system with the subwoofer too prominent to disappear into the mix seamlessly.  That's just the nature of the music you're trying to reproduce.  A DJ mixing electronic music in a club doesn't create a "natural sound stage", he plays loud music to fill up the club.  If you're going for the "loud & clear club music" type of sound in the boat, or to project from the boat, then you'll probably end up with more subwoofer level than the "perfect sound stage" type of tune.  Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you're going for.

Most of the boat systems that have a big subwoofer that I have been involved with are the "loud & clear club music" type of customers.  They want everything really loud, really clear sounding, with a lot of bass.  And they want it loud and clear while the boat is moving, with the wind in their face.  In those types of systems we focus less on sound stage and imaging and more on speaker location (when we have a choice) and making sure we get good distribution of sound throughout the boat, have plenty of headroom so the system will play loud and clean without clipping, and do our best to overcome the inherent compromises with regards to the subwoofer, since every boat seems to be a compromise when it comes to subwoofers.  A good DSP, and some time spent experimenting with the DSP, added to an otherwise well planned and executed boat audio installation can definitely help achieve the best possible performance from the audio system.

Odin

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