Wisconsin New Spotter Law Needing Support

[onwi]

On 6/19/2017 at 9:27 AM, klingsdesigns said:

About how much was it? Trying to get the wife to do it.

Still waiting for the ticket to arrive in the mail.  I'll update this comment when it arrives.

Edit:  And today's total is................

$232.00.  

@klingsdesigns

Edited June 23, 2017 by onwi

[onwi]

There is a new amendment in the works for the bill.  This amendment would allow for mirror usage in all but 2 counties in the state of Wisconsin.  In Waukesha (Nagawicka, Pine, Pewaukee, Okauchee....) and Walworth (lake Geneva) Counties individual lakes would have to opt in to allowing a mirror.  As a result, until local government decided to allow a mirror, spotters would still be required in Waukesha and Walworth Counties.  

Representative Tyler August (Lake Geneva) and Cindi Duchow (Delafield) are two legislators pushing this issue.  Tyler August has the Lake Geneva law enforcement pushing him on this issue.  Ms. Duchow has, for an unknown reason, decided to go along with Mr. August.

As a Waukesha county resident I'm very disappointed.  A patchwork of counties at the whim of two legislators is ridiculous.  If you live, work or ride in these areas please call these legislators.    

For reference:

-Nationwide, the 17 states that allow mirror usage reported 3.8 towed accidents per 100,000 registered boats.  Spotter states reported 6.3.  This is an increase of 40% in the "safer" states.

-Towed accidents accounted for less of the total boating accidents in mirror states as well, 9.6% vs. 13.7%.

-Minnesota is the best comparison to Wisconsin in terms of boating culture.  During that period Minnesota reported 71 towed accidents.  Wisconsin reported 92.  Minnesota also average roughly 178,000 more boats each of those years.

-Minnesota's accident rate per 100,000 registered boats was 1.75 to Wisconsin's 2.92.

[minnmarker]

26 minutes ago, onwi said:

As a Waukesha county resident I'm very disappointed.  A patchwork of counties at the whim of two legislators is ridiculous.  If you live, work or ride in these areas please call these legislators.    

Sorry to hear about the exceptions but glad this is moving forward.  All politics are local...  I'll email the rep for our area and encourage him to pass it without the restrictions.

This bill will change my weekdays and weekend mornings at the cabin when just my wife and I are there.  The local LEO are regularly absent at those times but the DNR guys always seems to be visiting.  They now use SeaDoo GTX's which gives them fast in/out and a fast ride around the lake - so they can hit several lakes per day.

[ksdaoski]

I received this email from her 1.5 years ago:

Dear Kyle,      

Thank you for contacting me with your thoughts on AB 256, I appreciate the time you took to write to me.

I fully understand your view on this, however, I do have some safety concerns with the bill. There are many lakes statewide where the traffic is so heavy that checking your mirrors constantly may pose a safety risk. As someone in the boating industry, I know that many people on the lakes would not be comfortable with removing the spotter requirement. As always, though, I will be sure to keep your comments in mind as my colleagues and I discuss the bill.

Please feel free to contact me again if you have any other comments or concerns about this or any other state issue.

Best Regards,

Cindi Duchow

 

 

From: 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2015 7:10 AM
To: Rep.Duchow <[email protected]>
Subject: Senate Bill 180 and Assembly Bill 256

 

Hello-

My name is Kyle D, I live in Hartland, WI and frequent Nagawicka in Waukesha County.  I am a big supporter of this bill.  It would greatly increase the amount of time and money I spent around and on the lake, if I didn't always need to have a spotter.  I also know plenty of people where I work, who make annual summer trips to MN, in part because of the laws in that state, that make it easier to ski and wakeboard, without a third party.  

 

Thanks for your time.

Edited June 20, 2017 by ksdaoski

[ksdaoski]

We'll see if I get a response...

 

Good Afternoon, I would like to reach out again on this subject, now Assembly Bill 100.

I was hoping to better understand your safety concerns, which would potentially limit the original intent of the bill.   The facts as I've seen them reported, would not indicate there are legitimate safety issues.  

-Nationwide, the 17 states that allow mirror usage reported 3.8 towed accidents per 100,000 registered boats.  Spotter states reported 6.3.  This is an increase of 40% in the "safer" states.

-Towed accidents accounted for less of the total boating accidents in mirror states as well, 9.6% vs. 13.7%.

-Minnesota is the best comparison to Wisconsin in terms of boating culture.  During that period Minnesota reported 71 towed accidents.  Wisconsin reported 92.  Minnesota also average roughly 178,000 more boats each of those years.

-Minnesota's accident rate per 100,000 registered boats was 1.75 to Wisconsin's 2.92.

 

Specific to the lakes in Waukesha County, most have limited access due to limited parking spaces.  As someone that uses Nagawicka on a regular basis, I don't think I've ever encountered a weekend in which the on lake traffic was so intense, I couldn't properly use the rear mirror to monitor a skier.   Expanding into week days, there is even less boating traffic.   It's unfortunate, the perception of danger, creates limitations on using such a wonderful state resource, as Nagawicka Lake. 

 

Again, I would like to think, if the good people of MN, can handle utilizing a mirror to safely monitor a person on water skis, so can people from WI.

 

Thanks and regards-  

[Options123]

Hey all,

I'm a Mastercraft owner, but came across this thread through Google search.

My wife and I have had our boat 2 years and I didn't realize how hard it would be to find a third person on weekdays or off peak times when it is best for wakeboarding/surfing.  It's really dissapointing and honestly I may have not bought the boat if I knew how much it would limit my activity on the boat.  I didn't buy it to just float around and drink beer.  

We really need to support this as the evidence does not show it is any less safe (possibly safer) without a spotter.  I have my boat at Lake Geneva, WI at a marina and it is know to be a busy lake.  On weekdays there is no one out there and in no way do I think it would be unsafe as long as we have the wide angle mirror.  I'm not a risk taker and would not trade safety for fun.   

I've written my representative, so I hope that helps.  If anyone knows how to support this further, I'm happy to contribute.  

 

[UWSkier]

Just now, Options123 said:

Hey all,

I'm a Mastercraft owner, but came across this thread through Google search.

My wife and I have had our boat 2 years and I didn't realize how hard it would be to find a third person on weekdays or off peak times when it is best for wakeboarding/surfing.  It's really dissapointing and honestly I may have not bought the boat if I knew how much it would limit my activity on the boat.  I didn't buy it to just float around and drink beer.  

We really need to support this as the evidence does not show it is any less safe (possibly safer) without a spotter.  I have my boat at Lake Geneva, WI at a marina and it is know to be a busy lake.  On weekdays there is no one out there and in no way do I think it would be unsafe as long as we have the wide angle mirror.  I'm not a risk taker and would not trade safety for fun.   

I've written my representative, so I hope that helps.  If anyone knows how to support this further, I'm happy to contribute.  

 

Welcome.  Definitely write your reps.  If you have your boat on Geneva in one district, but live in another, email or call both reps.  Your Geneva rep is on the wrong side of this one BTW.  It's unlikely this gets passed on Geneva due to the amendment allowing local overrides of the law.

Also good to email Rep Jarchow as the bill sponsor and offer to provide testimony if still required.  Right now it's stuck in committee and it isn't likely to get out until fall.

I recommend playing up the husband/wife thing as it makes it personal.  I'm in the situation where my wife and I don't have kids either and we're punished by WI laws if we want to take a camping trip together with the boat where we might not know anyone else.

[ksdaoski]

Thank you for following up with me regarding AB 100. I appreciate the time you took to contact me.

While we may disagree on this issue, please know that I appreciate hearing from you. I continue to have concerns regarding safety on lakes, such as Pewaukee Lake, that have high boater traffic on the weekends. As an individual who lives on this lake, I have seen first-hand how busy the lake can get, which is my reason for pause regarding AB 100. I also consulted with the Waukesha County Sherriff’s Department on their thoughts and they too felt it raised some safety concerns.

After speaking with the author of the bill, we are currently working on an amendment that generally makes the option to utilize a mirror in lieu of a spotter inapplicable in two counties- Walworth and Waukesha. However, the amendment would authorize a town, village or city located in either of those counties to enact an ordinance to allow the use of a mirror in lieu of a spotter. This would allow the local municipality to determine what would be best for their lake. Ultimately, I believe it should be the choice of the local municipality. Please also know that Minnesota excludes two of their largest lakes from their legislation.

Again, thank you for contacting me. Please feel free to reach out with any further questions or concerns by replying to this email or by calling my office at (608) 266-3007.

Sincerely,

Representative Cindi Duchow

Wisconsin State Assembly

District 99

[ksdaoski]

and my response back today....

Good Afternoon Cindi, thanks for getting back to me.

I agree, ultimately, it should be the choice of the local municipality.

Today, we allow local municipalities to determine what is best for their lakes, above and beyond State boating laws.

For example, Golden Lake has a "no wake Noon-4pm" on weekends and holidays, as determined by the Town of Summit.

However, it did not originate with a State-wide Law, Banning wakes from Noon-4pm, that had to be amended by the local municipalities to allow Noon-4pm wakes.  The municipalities around Pewaukee Lake, Nagawicka Lake, and Lake La Belle, etc, weren't forced to amendment a Noon-4pm State Law Ban on wakes.

It started with a State wide "no wake dusk to dawn" concept, that was applied universally across all Counties, and then local municipalities added, as they determined what was best for their lakes.  

Similarly, I believe we should be starting with an open, State-wide acceptance of the mirror law.  Then, local ordinances could pass a spotter requirement, as they deemed required.  

This is much more in the spirit of allowing local municipalities to determine their needs, and much more empowering to the local taxpayers and users of the lakes.

In addition, I can't think of examples today, where State Laws place County by County limitations.  It seems odd and troubling, that 70 out 72 counties would be able to support the mirror law, while 2 entire counties could not.

Why should a WI resident (or vacationer) in Waukesha County have State law Limitations placed upon them, that are different from State laws on a WI resident (or vacationer) in Fund du Lac County?    

By placing limitations on 2 out of 72 counties, it seems to be counter to the belief that less government is good government.  

To make it even more local, while I do not currently live on Beaver Lake, I have been looking at a house for sale on this lake.   Because this lake does not have local access, the lake traffic is very light.  It will now require more government action, to amend the law.    What maybe deemed required for Pewaukee Lake, is driving the Waukesha county exception, and will be imposed on Beaver Lake, despite having different usage needs. 

Lastly, as a reminder, the comparable MN/WI boating accidents, does not indicate spotters are safer than mirrors only; its actually the opposite.  And nationally, the 17 states that allow mirror usage reported 3.8 towed accidents per 100,000 registered boats.  Spotter states reported 6.3.  This is a 40% increase of accidents in the "safer" states.

 

Thanks and regards-

[ksdaoski]

The photo below was taken at Nagawicka, around 9am.

I have several other photos of Naga and Pewaukee, from between 8:40 and 9am, Saturday July the 9th.

 

The lakes are dead.  Traffic is dead.  Not having a spotter is not creating a risk.

If a legit safety concern due to traffic, why treat weekdays the same as weekends? 
Or early mornings the same as mid-afternoon?
Lake traffic is nearly non-existent on weekdays and early to mid-mornings on weekends. 

If there are specific times, on specific lakes, in which it's still deemed too dangerous, then the local municipalities could require spotters, on these days/times.

I also have legitimate concerns around 2 out of 72 counties having State Law limitations, that are not consistent universally across all 72 counties. 

To me, both of those points/principle concerns, apply beyond just this specific boating law, and could be applied across any number of freedoms that we enjoy.   Frustrating.  

More photos: https://goo.gl/photos/GQ1xiZZXnz35dPcR8

Edited July 8, 2017 by ksdaoski

[DAI]

Just now, ksdaoski said:

Where is that?

[UWSkier]

Looks like Nag

Edited July 8, 2017 by UWSkier

[ksdaoski]

Correct, that one is Nag.

 

Heres Pewaukee, with a few fisherman.

Both of the lakes are 10min from my house.

I don't fish.  Just becomes a wasted resource, for what I would like to use it for.  

 

My solutions, move to another country (apparently) or move to another state.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by ksdaoski

[ksdaoski]

Just venting some more....

If they change the law, with the amendment, I would seriously considering moving.

I could move 40 mins north, live in Washington County, and live on Big Cedar Lake.    Or 45 mins south, live in Racine County, and go to Tichigan.   Or 50 mins west, live in Dane country and go to Mendota.

Its just really stupid and arbitrary.   

[Options123]

I contacted my representative in Franklin.  Was late on Friday so no reply yet.  

Will plan to contact Lake geneva rep today as well.   I would inform your friends/neighbors as well to make some noise on this issue .  I contacted my friend who goes to pewaukee frequently and he didn't even know it was illegal to go with only 2.  

In the meantime, if anyone wants to join my wife and I out @ Lake Geneva on thursday mornings, contact me.  

 

[DAI]

56 minutes ago, Options123 said:

I contacted my representative in Franklin.  Was late on Friday so no reply yet.  

Will plan to contact Lake geneva rep today as well.   I would inform your friends/neighbors as well to make some noise on this issue .  I contacted my friend who goes to pewaukee frequently and he didn't even know it was illegal to go with only 2.  

In the meantime, if anyone wants to join my wife and I out @ Lake Geneva on thursday mornings, contact me.  

 

Is ever not choppy on Geneva?  Do you go out on other lakes in the area?  Some of us in the area stay in contact in the linked thread.

 

[Sixball]

The thing I look at is more how busy things are. We ski without a spotter all the time. With that said I would never go without a spotter if I was on a crowded lake. Actually its not good skiing if the lake is busy but I still would not run a congested lake without a spotter. I sometimes wish we could see a law about the lake congestion but then you would have a judgment call!     

[UWSkier]

@SixballI agree, however, I think the amendment they're proposing goes about implementation in the wrong fashion.  They're looking to require spotters in 2 out of 72 counties and rely on local municipalities to have the gumption to write ordinances relaxing the requirement.  That's not how ordinances work...  Ordinances usually go the other way, layering on additional restrictions.  They know that if they get this approved for these counties, these lakes will always require spotters.

[jrvs23]

I've been in MN all week with my family on a lake. I was more distracted with my wife spotting than when it was just me with my kids. My wife was talking to me and we missed my son for a few seconds who had let go. I am way more focused without a spotter using a mirror than with one thinking they are doing their job. 

It's really horrible to know these reps have their own agenda and preconceived notions that won't change no matter how much we voice our opinion. I've written to all and hope it goes well but I have little faith in our government to make common sense decision based on facts and the best interest of the people. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by jrvs23

[DAI]

8 hours ago, jrvs23 said:

It's really horrible to know these reps have their own agenda and preconceived notions that won't change no matter how much we voice our opinion. I've written to all and hope it goes well but I have little faith in our government to make common sense decision based on facts and the best interest of the people. 

This is so true.  At the end of the day all most of them care about is getting reelected and focus on the wants of those who give money to help get them reelected.  IMHO, facts and data won't really help a small vocal minority . . . . money talks.  Either way, I still sent my concerns and support for the orginal intent of the bill.  

[braindamage]

8 hours ago, jrvs23 said:

government to make common sense decision

I haven't seen this before, I don't expect to see it now, and I doubt I will see it in my future.

[mlange]

If you guys are really going to argue that Pewaukee, Nag and Okauchee don't turn into nightmares during the day I don't see you getting too far.  And if Cindi lives on Pewaukee she's not going to change her mind on that one.  I'm on Okauchee and it's downright terrible most weekends.  I'd actually like to see a slow-no-wake similar to what Golden does.  And Nag is the very first lake where I have to say I was actually concerned about being on one busy Saturday.  

However, I do completely agree that the laws should be set similar to how no-wakes are done with the local municipalities constraining it rather than loosening it up.

But I still struggle with allowing this.  There just aren't enough other people that have the intelligence to keep their head on a swivel at all times.  Our whole crew disagrees with me, but my opinion is still that there are too many idiots out there that have no clue and I don't want them pulling someone without a spotter and being distracted when I'm out there at the same time.  I hate to say it, but this is needed to deal with all of the idiots that shouldn't even be allowed on the water in the first place if I had my way.

Mike

[CedarLakeSkier]

I don't know about all of you..  I'm a skier.   More that a few boats (or one surfer/tuber) and my lake is too choppy to be pulled on a ski.   I hit it early morning or late at night.  If I'm really lucky on a weekend there might be 15 minutes when everyone is in for lunch or dinner.

In short, if the amount of traffic is a problem people most likely are not participating in towed water sports (assuming tubing is not a water sport here).

Part of the reason I don't think Cindy Duchow's argument applies is that as the traffic goes up, the number of people participating in towed water sports goes down

[braindamage]

I don't think I agree that when traffic goes up towed water sports go down. I think skiing goes down, maybe even wakeboarding goes down, but tubing goes up and so does surfing from what I see out my front windows. Not scientific, just what I see. 

I am not worried about surfers so much except that it's a lot easier for the driver to be distracted by talking to the surfer-something that's unique to surf. And tubers are just unpredictable and sloppy.

i like the idea of no spotters required from sunrise +2 hours and 1 hour before sunset. That's when it's really not busy and the drivers are the serious watersports zealots.

[Sixball]

12 hours ago, braindamage said:

I don't think I agree that when traffic goes up towed water sports go down. I think skiing goes down, maybe even wakeboarding goes down, but tubing goes up and so does surfing from what I see out my front windows. Not scientific, just what I see. 

I am not worried about surfers so much except that it's a lot easier for the driver to be distracted by talking to the surfer-something that's unique to surf. And tubers are just unpredictable and sloppy.

i like the idea of no spotters required from sunrise +2 hours and 1 hour before sunset. That's when it's really not busy and the drivers are the serious watersports zealots.

I would not even think of taking my kid or anyone's other then mine out on our lake mid day on a weekend. Its a zoo and anyone who thinks they can outguess a tuber driver is just wrong. I see  things that scares the $#it out of me. I don't even go out for rides on a mid day weekend with the boats. If for some reason we do we head up the rive and away from the lake traffic.